I think your entirely correct.
I think the problem with playing senior England players in the under 21's is burn out, take Sterling, Ox or Wilshire.
They could play 10 months of football, followed by the U21 Finals, then another 10 months of football followed by the 2016 finals with the senior team, followed by another 10 months of football.
Despite what people say, players do need a break at some point, the club season,internationals, followed by pre-season trips to America and Asia will take it's toll long term IMO.
Don't think players who have already represented the seniors in a major tournament should play for the under 21s.
There are some players still 'on the bridge' between the two groups who should represent the U-21s, but the likes of Wilshere, Sterling, Ox, Barkley shouldn't be dropping back down just to have a 'super-squad'.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by BruceandPally (U8201) posted 5 minutes ago
I think the problem with playing senior England players in the under 21's is burn out, take Sterling, Ox or Wilshire.
They could play 10 months of football, followed by the U21 Finals, then another 10 months of football followed by the 2016 finals with the senior team, followed by another 10 months of football.
Despite what people say, players do need a break at some point, the club season,internationals, followed by pre-season trips to America and Asia will take it's toll long term IMO
-------------------------
I'm no expert (I doubt any of us are), but I feel like the whole burnout scare has been blown way out of proportion. It's almost as if when a youngster doesn't fulfill his potential, burnout is immediately blamed, when in fact hardly any promising young players actually go on to blow everyone away anyways.
Plus I refuse to believe that professional athletes who follow strict routines to keep their bodies in shape, can completely burn out due to an extra 6 games over the summer. It doesn't seem like a whole lot more football to be honest
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882) posted 2 minutes ago
---------------Butland
Flan Chambers Stones Shaw
--------Prowse----Wilshere
---------------Sterling
-----Barkley-Berahino-Ox
This team should be playing at the U21 championships. Get a good team chemistry going in time for WC2018
-----------------------------
I'd play Hughes instead of Wilshere. He's definitely earned his spot
I'd play Hughes instead of Wilshere. He's definitely earned his spot
---------------
He is not even a regular starter for the U-21s without the seniors dropping down.
Theres some pretty highly rated young English players eligible for u21 however they are managed by Southgate ffs
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Isle of Manc - Year of the Januzaj (U18323)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882) posted 2 minutes ago
---------------Butland
Flan Chambers Stones Shaw
--------Prowse----Wilshere
---------------Sterling
-----Barkley-Berahino-Ox
This team should be playing at the U21 championships. Get a good team chemistry going in time for WC2018
-----------------------------
I'd play Hughes instead of Wilshere. He's definitely earned his spot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you ever make any good comments?
Wilshere was England's best player over the last two games and you want to drop him for a youngster with no experience?
It's like when a young player who everybody called out for a few years ago gets older and starts putting in performances, people start crying out for a younger player to replace him. If Hughes got in the side, in a few years you'd be calling for a younger player to replace him.
Do you ever make any good comments?
Wilshere was England's best player over the last two games and you want to drop him for a youngster with no experience?
It's like when a young player who everybody called out for a few years ago gets older and starts putting in performances, people start crying out for a younger player to replace him. If Hughes got in the side, in a few years you'd be calling for a younger player to replace him
---------------------------------------------------
You do know we're talking about the U21 championships here right? Read before you get all wound up you spástic
comment by Isle of Manc - Year of the Januzaj (U18323)
posted 10 minutes ago
Do you ever make any good comments?
Wilshere was England's best player over the last two games and you want to drop him for a youngster with no experience?
It's like when a young player who everybody called out for a few years ago gets older and starts putting in performances, people start crying out for a younger player to replace him. If Hughes got in the side, in a few years you'd be calling for a younger player to replace him
---------------------------------------------------
You do know we're talking about the U21 championships here right? Read before you get all wound up you spástic
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So why would Hughes be playing instead of Wilshere?
TOOR you didn't read properly and made a mistake. It's no big deal but there's no point in trying to keep responding.
Wilshere doesn't even play in the U21s. He's been a full team player for years now so it'd be pointless to bring him back in place of someone who could do with the experience. I'm not even sure what you're getting at anymore
comment by Isle of Manc - Year of the Januzaj (U18323)
posted 3 minutes ago
TOOR you didn't read properly and made a mistake. It's no big deal but there's no point in trying to keep responding.
Wilshere doesn't even play in the U21s. He's been a full team player for years now so it'd be pointless to bring him back in place of someone who could do with the experience. I'm not even sure what you're getting at anymore
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course. However in terms of the article and these young players dropping into the u21s, you wouldn't replace Wilshere with Hughes. That's crazy.
I wouldn't. I don't think Wilshere could benefit at all from playing in that tournament. It's quite clearly beneath his level, and I'd rather him stay in the senior squad and act as a bit of a leader to the youngsters making the step up
He's been out of the U21s far too long to just bring back in place of someone who's still looking to prove themselves and would relish the chance much more than cocaine Jack
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 1 hour, 57 minutes ago
---------------Butland
Flan Chambers Stones Shaw
--------Prowse----Wilshere
---------------Sterling
-----Barkley-Berahino-Ox
This team should be playing at the U21 championships. Get a good team chemistry going in time for WC2018
=====
Southgate is clearly the man to lead England after Roy, looking at who he wants to call up for the U21's points to this I feel.
People will say he is not good enough, but international management is different to club management.....you are not held back by budget or club stature, you have the nations best to pick from.
taking that group forward and mixing it into the established players is the way IMO, Barkley has ha a recent 'injury' rest so shouldn't be a problem.
comment by Isle of Manc - Year of the Januzaj (U18323)
posted 2 hours, 52 minutes ago
comment by BruceandPally (U8201) posted 5 minutes ago
I think the problem with playing senior England players in the under 21's is burn out, take Sterling, Ox or Wilshire.
They could play 10 months of football, followed by the U21 Finals, then another 10 months of football followed by the 2016 finals with the senior team, followed by another 10 months of football.
Despite what people say, players do need a break at some point, the club season,internationals, followed by pre-season trips to America and Asia will take it's toll long term IMO
-------------------------
I'm no expert (I doubt any of us are), but I feel like the whole burnout scare has been blown way out of proportion. It's almost as if when a youngster doesn't fulfill his potential, burnout is immediately blamed, when in fact hardly any promising young players actually go on to blow everyone away anyways.
Plus I refuse to believe that professional athletes who follow strict routines to keep their bodies in shape, can completely burn out due to an extra 6 games over the summer. It doesn't seem like a whole lot more football to be honest
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I don't think the burnout things is a new worry, it's been happening for years it's only this week it's been spoken about in depth thanks to that Jamaican Sterling.
They do only have six more games but there's training and as well,and it's all year over a few years if they're playing for the U21's and the senior team.
If someone has a minor injury it could blow up and keep them out for even longer,that's more of a problem than just being a bit tired I think.
Going against the majority of thinking, I actually favour the suggestion that players such as Barkley etc! Should grow together in the under 21's and move up together into the Senior Squad. That way we will have consistency along the lines of the German and Spanish system.
comment by BigDuncsMum (U18651)
posted 38 minutes ago
Going against the majority of thinking, I actually favour the suggestion that players such as Barkley etc! Should grow together in the under 21's and move up together into the Senior Squad. That way we will have consistency along the lines of the German and Spanish system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If the senior squad was stronger i wouldn't mind younger players switching between the two levels but we can't afford to have the likes of Ox,Sterling and Barkley getting injured with the U21's, the senior team couldn't cope IMO.
Its not just an extra six games, it's going away, travelling, training and playing games which others aren't and not getting rest which is in fact the most important part.
Out senior team have apparently already played their most difficult game of the qualifying group in Switzerland and I don't think any games next summer for that side will (hopefully!) require us to go in with all our major players. As it is if you leave out all the players under 21 you can still make what should be a decent team.
Hart
Baines
Cahill
Jags
Johnson
Henderson
Lallana
Milner
Townsend
Rooney
Sturridge
I appreciate there may not be the most creativity or width on the midfield that Sterling or the Ox are giving you but that is an ok team to play against Slovenia which is our one competitive game next year.
You only have to look at Germany to see the wisdom in fielding a strong team in an under 21's competition to see the progression into the senior squad.
2009 - Win Euro u21's championship
2010 - Promote a good chunk of that squad into the world cup team and exceed expectations by coming 3rd
2014 - One full cycle later and that team still with a number of veterans from that u21 championship win the world cup.
I'm not saying it will happen for England but surely it is time to give something like that a go rather than plodding on disappointingly in the same manner, tournament after tournament?
comment by toffeegod (U1345)
posted 5 minutes ago
Out senior team have apparently already played their most difficult game of the qualifying group in Switzerland and I don't think any games next summer for that side will (hopefully!) require us to go in with all our major players. As it is if you leave out all the players under 21 you can still make what should be a decent team.
Hart
Baines
Cahill
Jags
Johnson
Henderson
Lallana
Milner
Townsend
Rooney
Sturridge
I appreciate there may not be the most creativity or width on the midfield that Sterling or the Ox are giving you but that is an ok team to play against Slovenia which is our one competitive game next year.
You only have to look at Germany to see the wisdom in fielding a strong team in an under 21's competition to see the progression into the senior squad.
2009 - Win Euro u21's championship
2010 - Promote a good chunk of that squad into the world cup team and exceed expectations by coming 3rd
2014 - One full cycle later and that team still with a number of veterans from that u21 championship win the world cup.
I'm not saying it will happen for England but surely it is time to give something like that a go rather than plodding on disappointingly in the same manner, tournament after tournament?
==
Thankfully you understand
It's not that people don't "understand" the idea it's whether or not you agree, other teams have been successful by utilising the U21 team,others have been successful without doing so.
It's worth pointing out that Spain aren't exactly tearing it up at the moment, and even Germany, despite being World Champions, already look a shadow of the team we've seen over the last 4-5 years.
Too much copying others and not enough using the strengths within lately. Football works in cycles, if you spend your time copying the next best thing you'll be trying a new approach every four years.
Spain and Germany also utilise B teams, and at their peak were one or two team leagues, and players from these teams made up the bulk of the international teams.
You cannot just say 'oh, they did well at under 21 and then seniors, so if we go hard in the U-21s we will be successful at senior level'. There are lots of variables.
Sign in if you want to comment
Martinez is wrong here...
Page 1 of 2
posted on 16/10/14
I think your entirely correct.
posted on 16/10/14
I think the problem with playing senior England players in the under 21's is burn out, take Sterling, Ox or Wilshire.
They could play 10 months of football, followed by the U21 Finals, then another 10 months of football followed by the 2016 finals with the senior team, followed by another 10 months of football.
Despite what people say, players do need a break at some point, the club season,internationals, followed by pre-season trips to America and Asia will take it's toll long term IMO.
posted on 16/10/14
Don't think players who have already represented the seniors in a major tournament should play for the under 21s.
There are some players still 'on the bridge' between the two groups who should represent the U-21s, but the likes of Wilshere, Sterling, Ox, Barkley shouldn't be dropping back down just to have a 'super-squad'.
posted on 16/10/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 16/10/14
comment by BruceandPally (U8201) posted 5 minutes ago
I think the problem with playing senior England players in the under 21's is burn out, take Sterling, Ox or Wilshire.
They could play 10 months of football, followed by the U21 Finals, then another 10 months of football followed by the 2016 finals with the senior team, followed by another 10 months of football.
Despite what people say, players do need a break at some point, the club season,internationals, followed by pre-season trips to America and Asia will take it's toll long term IMO
-------------------------
I'm no expert (I doubt any of us are), but I feel like the whole burnout scare has been blown way out of proportion. It's almost as if when a youngster doesn't fulfill his potential, burnout is immediately blamed, when in fact hardly any promising young players actually go on to blow everyone away anyways.
Plus I refuse to believe that professional athletes who follow strict routines to keep their bodies in shape, can completely burn out due to an extra 6 games over the summer. It doesn't seem like a whole lot more football to be honest
posted on 16/10/14
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882) posted 2 minutes ago
---------------Butland
Flan Chambers Stones Shaw
--------Prowse----Wilshere
---------------Sterling
-----Barkley-Berahino-Ox
This team should be playing at the U21 championships. Get a good team chemistry going in time for WC2018
-----------------------------
I'd play Hughes instead of Wilshere. He's definitely earned his spot
posted on 16/10/14
I'd play Hughes instead of Wilshere. He's definitely earned his spot
---------------
He is not even a regular starter for the U-21s without the seniors dropping down.
posted on 16/10/14
Theres some pretty highly rated young English players eligible for u21 however they are managed by Southgate ffs
posted on 16/10/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 16/10/14
comment by Isle of Manc - Year of the Januzaj (U18323)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882) posted 2 minutes ago
---------------Butland
Flan Chambers Stones Shaw
--------Prowse----Wilshere
---------------Sterling
-----Barkley-Berahino-Ox
This team should be playing at the U21 championships. Get a good team chemistry going in time for WC2018
-----------------------------
I'd play Hughes instead of Wilshere. He's definitely earned his spot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you ever make any good comments?
Wilshere was England's best player over the last two games and you want to drop him for a youngster with no experience?
It's like when a young player who everybody called out for a few years ago gets older and starts putting in performances, people start crying out for a younger player to replace him. If Hughes got in the side, in a few years you'd be calling for a younger player to replace him.
posted on 16/10/14
Do you ever make any good comments?
Wilshere was England's best player over the last two games and you want to drop him for a youngster with no experience?
It's like when a young player who everybody called out for a few years ago gets older and starts putting in performances, people start crying out for a younger player to replace him. If Hughes got in the side, in a few years you'd be calling for a younger player to replace him
---------------------------------------------------
You do know we're talking about the U21 championships here right? Read before you get all wound up you spástic
posted on 16/10/14
comment by Isle of Manc - Year of the Januzaj (U18323)
posted 10 minutes ago
Do you ever make any good comments?
Wilshere was England's best player over the last two games and you want to drop him for a youngster with no experience?
It's like when a young player who everybody called out for a few years ago gets older and starts putting in performances, people start crying out for a younger player to replace him. If Hughes got in the side, in a few years you'd be calling for a younger player to replace him
---------------------------------------------------
You do know we're talking about the U21 championships here right? Read before you get all wound up you spástic
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So why would Hughes be playing instead of Wilshere?
posted on 16/10/14
TOOR you didn't read properly and made a mistake. It's no big deal but there's no point in trying to keep responding.
Wilshere doesn't even play in the U21s. He's been a full team player for years now so it'd be pointless to bring him back in place of someone who could do with the experience. I'm not even sure what you're getting at anymore
posted on 16/10/14
comment by Isle of Manc - Year of the Januzaj (U18323)
posted 3 minutes ago
TOOR you didn't read properly and made a mistake. It's no big deal but there's no point in trying to keep responding.
Wilshere doesn't even play in the U21s. He's been a full team player for years now so it'd be pointless to bring him back in place of someone who could do with the experience. I'm not even sure what you're getting at anymore
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course. However in terms of the article and these young players dropping into the u21s, you wouldn't replace Wilshere with Hughes. That's crazy.
posted on 16/10/14
I wouldn't. I don't think Wilshere could benefit at all from playing in that tournament. It's quite clearly beneath his level, and I'd rather him stay in the senior squad and act as a bit of a leader to the youngsters making the step up
He's been out of the U21s far too long to just bring back in place of someone who's still looking to prove themselves and would relish the chance much more than cocaine Jack
posted on 16/10/14
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 1 hour, 57 minutes ago
---------------Butland
Flan Chambers Stones Shaw
--------Prowse----Wilshere
---------------Sterling
-----Barkley-Berahino-Ox
This team should be playing at the U21 championships. Get a good team chemistry going in time for WC2018
=====
Southgate is clearly the man to lead England after Roy, looking at who he wants to call up for the U21's points to this I feel.
People will say he is not good enough, but international management is different to club management.....you are not held back by budget or club stature, you have the nations best to pick from.
taking that group forward and mixing it into the established players is the way IMO, Barkley has ha a recent 'injury' rest so shouldn't be a problem.
posted on 16/10/14
comment by Isle of Manc - Year of the Januzaj (U18323)
posted 2 hours, 52 minutes ago
comment by BruceandPally (U8201) posted 5 minutes ago
I think the problem with playing senior England players in the under 21's is burn out, take Sterling, Ox or Wilshire.
They could play 10 months of football, followed by the U21 Finals, then another 10 months of football followed by the 2016 finals with the senior team, followed by another 10 months of football.
Despite what people say, players do need a break at some point, the club season,internationals, followed by pre-season trips to America and Asia will take it's toll long term IMO
-------------------------
I'm no expert (I doubt any of us are), but I feel like the whole burnout scare has been blown way out of proportion. It's almost as if when a youngster doesn't fulfill his potential, burnout is immediately blamed, when in fact hardly any promising young players actually go on to blow everyone away anyways.
Plus I refuse to believe that professional athletes who follow strict routines to keep their bodies in shape, can completely burn out due to an extra 6 games over the summer. It doesn't seem like a whole lot more football to be honest
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I don't think the burnout things is a new worry, it's been happening for years it's only this week it's been spoken about in depth thanks to that Jamaican Sterling.
They do only have six more games but there's training and as well,and it's all year over a few years if they're playing for the U21's and the senior team.
If someone has a minor injury it could blow up and keep them out for even longer,that's more of a problem than just being a bit tired I think.
posted on 16/10/14
Going against the majority of thinking, I actually favour the suggestion that players such as Barkley etc! Should grow together in the under 21's and move up together into the Senior Squad. That way we will have consistency along the lines of the German and Spanish system.
posted on 16/10/14
comment by BigDuncsMum (U18651)
posted 38 minutes ago
Going against the majority of thinking, I actually favour the suggestion that players such as Barkley etc! Should grow together in the under 21's and move up together into the Senior Squad. That way we will have consistency along the lines of the German and Spanish system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If the senior squad was stronger i wouldn't mind younger players switching between the two levels but we can't afford to have the likes of Ox,Sterling and Barkley getting injured with the U21's, the senior team couldn't cope IMO.
posted on 16/10/14
Its not just an extra six games, it's going away, travelling, training and playing games which others aren't and not getting rest which is in fact the most important part.
posted on 17/10/14
Out senior team have apparently already played their most difficult game of the qualifying group in Switzerland and I don't think any games next summer for that side will (hopefully!) require us to go in with all our major players. As it is if you leave out all the players under 21 you can still make what should be a decent team.
Hart
Baines
Cahill
Jags
Johnson
Henderson
Lallana
Milner
Townsend
Rooney
Sturridge
I appreciate there may not be the most creativity or width on the midfield that Sterling or the Ox are giving you but that is an ok team to play against Slovenia which is our one competitive game next year.
You only have to look at Germany to see the wisdom in fielding a strong team in an under 21's competition to see the progression into the senior squad.
2009 - Win Euro u21's championship
2010 - Promote a good chunk of that squad into the world cup team and exceed expectations by coming 3rd
2014 - One full cycle later and that team still with a number of veterans from that u21 championship win the world cup.
I'm not saying it will happen for England but surely it is time to give something like that a go rather than plodding on disappointingly in the same manner, tournament after tournament?
posted on 17/10/14
comment by toffeegod (U1345)
posted 5 minutes ago
Out senior team have apparently already played their most difficult game of the qualifying group in Switzerland and I don't think any games next summer for that side will (hopefully!) require us to go in with all our major players. As it is if you leave out all the players under 21 you can still make what should be a decent team.
Hart
Baines
Cahill
Jags
Johnson
Henderson
Lallana
Milner
Townsend
Rooney
Sturridge
I appreciate there may not be the most creativity or width on the midfield that Sterling or the Ox are giving you but that is an ok team to play against Slovenia which is our one competitive game next year.
You only have to look at Germany to see the wisdom in fielding a strong team in an under 21's competition to see the progression into the senior squad.
2009 - Win Euro u21's championship
2010 - Promote a good chunk of that squad into the world cup team and exceed expectations by coming 3rd
2014 - One full cycle later and that team still with a number of veterans from that u21 championship win the world cup.
I'm not saying it will happen for England but surely it is time to give something like that a go rather than plodding on disappointingly in the same manner, tournament after tournament?
==
Thankfully you understand
posted on 17/10/14
It's not that people don't "understand" the idea it's whether or not you agree, other teams have been successful by utilising the U21 team,others have been successful without doing so.
It's worth pointing out that Spain aren't exactly tearing it up at the moment, and even Germany, despite being World Champions, already look a shadow of the team we've seen over the last 4-5 years.
posted on 17/10/14
Too much copying others and not enough using the strengths within lately. Football works in cycles, if you spend your time copying the next best thing you'll be trying a new approach every four years.
posted on 17/10/14
Spain and Germany also utilise B teams, and at their peak were one or two team leagues, and players from these teams made up the bulk of the international teams.
You cannot just say 'oh, they did well at under 21 and then seniors, so if we go hard in the U-21s we will be successful at senior level'. There are lots of variables.
Page 1 of 2