The "Bruiser" plays in front of the deep-lying playmaker in our formation, as seen early last season when Ramsey had far and away the best tackling statistics in the league (something that has gone amiss this season as he goes walkabout trawling for a slot in the highlights).
----
Not sure your statistics are accurate there.
Viviano's Debut (U19138)
--------------------
I suggest you look at a replay of the Dortmund game away to see that a ball playing midfield player alone is not going to make any difference. Our midfield plays open fluent game that does dominate the ball. But you know how we do it? By all our players taking wide positions ie leaving massive gaps in between team mates and pushing our full backs into midfield to out number the opposition. That means a simple counter cuts us open like a knife through butter. We are not compact as a team. A team like that requires at least one midfield player to fill the central gap between the two CBs. Because on the counter our CBs are drawn wide to cover for full backs.
Tiki taka teams like Barca have always required a destructor to fill that position. They also have fast mobile CBs to fill in for the full backs that are forward to out number opposition in midfield to provide that possession you are talking about. We have a slow spine. Thats a complete no-no to any team that bases its game around possession. I won't even talk abt how that cripples counter attacks as well.
Now I agree that a destructor in itself seems a waste in our formation. But the idea that players are that limited these days is silly. Destructors even in the past could pass the ball. Gilberto, Vieira were all terrific passers and Vieira could not only tackle but also create.
You suggest "Vieira back in the side would probably not replace Arteta in our first 11. ". This indicates you are either young or simply a new fan. Its the most absurd statement I have read on these forums.
Viviano's Debut is absolutely on point. I have said it time and time again that we no longer employ the diamond 4-4-2 system any longer. Wenger has since shifted to using two pivot holding midfielders. Is most cases, he would pair Arteta with Flamini/Ramsey, using the pair as a "double six" in a 4-2-3-1 formation.
No, last year Wenger use a 4-2-3-1 formation but this year its 4-1-4-1
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Oxtail, we know what we play now. When we say we need a DM, that doesn't mean we're expecting his arrival to instill absolutely no change in tactics
What we actually need:
CB x 2, DM x 2, CF (poss new GK too)
New tactics
New medical team
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 5 hours, 13 minutes ago
Viviano's Debut (U19138)
--------------------
I suggest you look at a replay of the Dortmund game away to see that a ball playing midfield player alone is not going to make any difference. Our midfield plays open fluent game that does dominate the ball. But you know how we do it? By all our players taking wide positions ie leaving massive gaps in between team mates and pushing our full backs into midfield to out number the opposition. That means a simple counter cuts us open like a knife through butter. We are not compact as a team. A team like that requires at least one midfield player to fill the central gap between the two CBs. Because on the counter our CBs are drawn wide to cover for full backs.
Tiki taka teams like Barca have always required a destructor to fill that position. They also have fast mobile CBs to fill in for the full backs that are forward to out number opposition in midfield to provide that possession you are talking about. We have a slow spine. Thats a complete no-no to any team that bases its game around possession. I won't even talk abt how that cripples counter attacks as well.
Now I agree that a destructor in itself seems a waste in our formation. But the idea that players are that limited these days is silly. Destructors even in the past could pass the ball. Gilberto, Vieira were all terrific passers and Vieira could not only tackle but also create.
You suggest "Vieira back in the side would probably not replace Arteta in our first 11. ". This indicates you are either young or simply a new fan. Its the most absurd statement I have read on these forums.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
could hump your leg for this post
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 8 hours, 53 minutes ago
Viviano's Debut (U19138)
--------------------
I suggest you look at a replay of the Dortmund game away to see that a ball playing midfield player alone is not going to make any difference. Our midfield plays open fluent game that does dominate the ball. But you know how we do it? By all our players taking wide positions ie leaving massive gaps in between team mates and pushing our full backs into midfield to out number the opposition. That means a simple counter cuts us open like a knife through butter. We are not compact as a team. A team like that requires at least one midfield player to fill the central gap between the two CBs. Because on the counter our CBs are drawn wide to cover for full backs.
Tiki taka teams like Barca have always required a destructor to fill that position. They also have fast mobile CBs to fill in for the full backs that are forward to out number opposition in midfield to provide that possession you are talking about. We have a slow spine. Thats a complete no-no to any team that bases its game around possession. I won't even talk abt how that cripples counter attacks as well.
Now I agree that a destructor in itself seems a waste in our formation. But the idea that players are that limited these days is silly. Destructors even in the past could pass the ball. Gilberto, Vieira were all terrific passers and Vieira could not only tackle but also create.
You suggest "Vieira back in the side would probably not replace Arteta in our first 11. ". This indicates you are either young or simply a new fan. Its the most absurd statement I have read on these forums.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barca chucked Tiago Motta, Seydou Keita and repurposed Javier Mascherano...all quality "Bruisers". Why? Because having a player's key strengths become relevant for 35% of the game seemed pointless. Ditto Bayern (Lahm in for 40million J.Martinez) and Real (Illara & Khedira chucked, Kroos and Modric in).
We see it in the other quality sides. The trend of playing midfielders with no inherent attacking end-product is a dying one, and an all-together dead one at the highest level.
***
I suggest you look at a replay of the Dortmund game away to see that a ball playing midfield player alone is not going to make any difference. Our midfield plays open fluent game that does dominate the ball. But you know how we do it? By all our players taking wide positions ie leaving massive gaps in between team mates and pushing our full backs into midfield to out number the opposition. That means a simple counter cuts us open like a knife through butter.
--------------------------------------------
I suggest you watch Dortmund all season, cause that statement applies more to them than it does to us. Fullbacks are more offensive minded AND provide necessary outlets during the buildup of attacks (especially 2nd/3rd wave attacks). Think about defensive forms of the opposition, where is there most space?
Our fullbacks will always push up. What we need to prevent counters is extreme pressing routines high up when we lose possession (This, instead of "destructors" is what teams like Barca, Dortmund, and Chelsea this season have implemented to squeeze the opposition and force defensive errors).
Our spine is anything but slow. Kos is fast, so is ramsey, Ozil/Alexis and Giroud. While Mert is slow, he "technically" is covered on both sides by really mobile Debuchy (Right), Kos (left) and Ramsey (front). Same with Arteta (Gibbs, Ramsey, Kos).
I wouldn't call Gilberto a terrific passer of the ball any more than I'd call Mikel Obi. Tidy, more like. Kept it ticking either to Pires, Bergkamp or Vieira.
Vieira was fantastic offensively, and was always partnered with water-carriers in midfield as a result (Petit, Palour, Gilberto, Edu, Van Bronkhorst). Wenger seldom played him as the defensive shield, because he was such a fantastic midfield general operating from Box to Box.
***
You suggest "Vieira back in the side would probably not replace Arteta in our first 11. ". This indicates you are either young or simply a new fan. Its the most absurd statement I have read on these forums.
-----
Seems the red mist had descended over your eyes at this point. That comment wasn't a critique on player quality, it was one on player role. Vieira was always a B2B beast. that role is left for either Ramsey or Wilshere now, not Arteta. Fans aren't clamouring to replace Ramsey or Wilshere now, so I'd imagine whoever got signed to replace arteta came with a similar skillset to avoid requiring a tactical rethink mid-season.
In our current system he wouldn't replace Arteta, he'd replace Ramsey.
Viviano's Debut (U19138)
All that said, yes Patrick Vieira for Arsenal was more often than not B2B but certainly not always and for Juve, Inter and City he became less B2B and more DM.
The reason he'd replace Arteta is because he has the attributes to succeed in the position and Arteta doesn't... simple as that.
But anyway, real problem with Arteta is that he provides zero bite and little defensive protection.
Either we need to change tactics to accommodate Arteta and have all our players press the opposition - Mert would need dropping for this. Or, we need an out and out DM enforcer to protect the defence who can never push too high with Mert in the side which creats gaps - Arteta therefore isn't suitable.
At the moment we don't have the personnel to fit an effective style against anything but poor to average opposition. Even with the right players our manager and medical staff would still be an issue.
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Transfer Window: What we REALLY need.
Page 2 of 2
posted on 9/1/15
NoShitSherlock
posted on 9/1/15
The "Bruiser" plays in front of the deep-lying playmaker in our formation, as seen early last season when Ramsey had far and away the best tackling statistics in the league (something that has gone amiss this season as he goes walkabout trawling for a slot in the highlights).
----
Not sure your statistics are accurate there.
posted on 9/1/15
Viviano's Debut (U19138)
--------------------
I suggest you look at a replay of the Dortmund game away to see that a ball playing midfield player alone is not going to make any difference. Our midfield plays open fluent game that does dominate the ball. But you know how we do it? By all our players taking wide positions ie leaving massive gaps in between team mates and pushing our full backs into midfield to out number the opposition. That means a simple counter cuts us open like a knife through butter. We are not compact as a team. A team like that requires at least one midfield player to fill the central gap between the two CBs. Because on the counter our CBs are drawn wide to cover for full backs.
Tiki taka teams like Barca have always required a destructor to fill that position. They also have fast mobile CBs to fill in for the full backs that are forward to out number opposition in midfield to provide that possession you are talking about. We have a slow spine. Thats a complete no-no to any team that bases its game around possession. I won't even talk abt how that cripples counter attacks as well.
Now I agree that a destructor in itself seems a waste in our formation. But the idea that players are that limited these days is silly. Destructors even in the past could pass the ball. Gilberto, Vieira were all terrific passers and Vieira could not only tackle but also create.
You suggest "Vieira back in the side would probably not replace Arteta in our first 11. ". This indicates you are either young or simply a new fan. Its the most absurd statement I have read on these forums.
posted on 9/1/15
Viviano's Debut is absolutely on point. I have said it time and time again that we no longer employ the diamond 4-4-2 system any longer. Wenger has since shifted to using two pivot holding midfielders. Is most cases, he would pair Arteta with Flamini/Ramsey, using the pair as a "double six" in a 4-2-3-1 formation.
posted on 9/1/15
No, last year Wenger use a 4-2-3-1 formation but this year its 4-1-4-1
posted on 9/1/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 9/1/15
Oxtail, we know what we play now. When we say we need a DM, that doesn't mean we're expecting his arrival to instill absolutely no change in tactics
posted on 9/1/15
What we actually need:
CB x 2, DM x 2, CF (poss new GK too)
New tactics
New medical team
posted on 10/1/15
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 5 hours, 13 minutes ago
Viviano's Debut (U19138)
--------------------
I suggest you look at a replay of the Dortmund game away to see that a ball playing midfield player alone is not going to make any difference. Our midfield plays open fluent game that does dominate the ball. But you know how we do it? By all our players taking wide positions ie leaving massive gaps in between team mates and pushing our full backs into midfield to out number the opposition. That means a simple counter cuts us open like a knife through butter. We are not compact as a team. A team like that requires at least one midfield player to fill the central gap between the two CBs. Because on the counter our CBs are drawn wide to cover for full backs.
Tiki taka teams like Barca have always required a destructor to fill that position. They also have fast mobile CBs to fill in for the full backs that are forward to out number opposition in midfield to provide that possession you are talking about. We have a slow spine. Thats a complete no-no to any team that bases its game around possession. I won't even talk abt how that cripples counter attacks as well.
Now I agree that a destructor in itself seems a waste in our formation. But the idea that players are that limited these days is silly. Destructors even in the past could pass the ball. Gilberto, Vieira were all terrific passers and Vieira could not only tackle but also create.
You suggest "Vieira back in the side would probably not replace Arteta in our first 11. ". This indicates you are either young or simply a new fan. Its the most absurd statement I have read on these forums.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
could hump your leg for this post
posted on 10/1/15
comment by Jenius99 (U4918)
posted 8 hours, 53 minutes ago
Viviano's Debut (U19138)
--------------------
I suggest you look at a replay of the Dortmund game away to see that a ball playing midfield player alone is not going to make any difference. Our midfield plays open fluent game that does dominate the ball. But you know how we do it? By all our players taking wide positions ie leaving massive gaps in between team mates and pushing our full backs into midfield to out number the opposition. That means a simple counter cuts us open like a knife through butter. We are not compact as a team. A team like that requires at least one midfield player to fill the central gap between the two CBs. Because on the counter our CBs are drawn wide to cover for full backs.
Tiki taka teams like Barca have always required a destructor to fill that position. They also have fast mobile CBs to fill in for the full backs that are forward to out number opposition in midfield to provide that possession you are talking about. We have a slow spine. Thats a complete no-no to any team that bases its game around possession. I won't even talk abt how that cripples counter attacks as well.
Now I agree that a destructor in itself seems a waste in our formation. But the idea that players are that limited these days is silly. Destructors even in the past could pass the ball. Gilberto, Vieira were all terrific passers and Vieira could not only tackle but also create.
You suggest "Vieira back in the side would probably not replace Arteta in our first 11. ". This indicates you are either young or simply a new fan. Its the most absurd statement I have read on these forums.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barca chucked Tiago Motta, Seydou Keita and repurposed Javier Mascherano...all quality "Bruisers". Why? Because having a player's key strengths become relevant for 35% of the game seemed pointless. Ditto Bayern (Lahm in for 40million J.Martinez) and Real (Illara & Khedira chucked, Kroos and Modric in).
We see it in the other quality sides. The trend of playing midfielders with no inherent attacking end-product is a dying one, and an all-together dead one at the highest level.
***
I suggest you look at a replay of the Dortmund game away to see that a ball playing midfield player alone is not going to make any difference. Our midfield plays open fluent game that does dominate the ball. But you know how we do it? By all our players taking wide positions ie leaving massive gaps in between team mates and pushing our full backs into midfield to out number the opposition. That means a simple counter cuts us open like a knife through butter.
--------------------------------------------
I suggest you watch Dortmund all season, cause that statement applies more to them than it does to us. Fullbacks are more offensive minded AND provide necessary outlets during the buildup of attacks (especially 2nd/3rd wave attacks). Think about defensive forms of the opposition, where is there most space?
Our fullbacks will always push up. What we need to prevent counters is extreme pressing routines high up when we lose possession (This, instead of "destructors" is what teams like Barca, Dortmund, and Chelsea this season have implemented to squeeze the opposition and force defensive errors).
Our spine is anything but slow. Kos is fast, so is ramsey, Ozil/Alexis and Giroud. While Mert is slow, he "technically" is covered on both sides by really mobile Debuchy (Right), Kos (left) and Ramsey (front). Same with Arteta (Gibbs, Ramsey, Kos).
I wouldn't call Gilberto a terrific passer of the ball any more than I'd call Mikel Obi. Tidy, more like. Kept it ticking either to Pires, Bergkamp or Vieira.
Vieira was fantastic offensively, and was always partnered with water-carriers in midfield as a result (Petit, Palour, Gilberto, Edu, Van Bronkhorst). Wenger seldom played him as the defensive shield, because he was such a fantastic midfield general operating from Box to Box.
***
You suggest "Vieira back in the side would probably not replace Arteta in our first 11. ". This indicates you are either young or simply a new fan. Its the most absurd statement I have read on these forums.
-----
Seems the red mist had descended over your eyes at this point. That comment wasn't a critique on player quality, it was one on player role. Vieira was always a B2B beast. that role is left for either Ramsey or Wilshere now, not Arteta. Fans aren't clamouring to replace Ramsey or Wilshere now, so I'd imagine whoever got signed to replace arteta came with a similar skillset to avoid requiring a tactical rethink mid-season.
In our current system he wouldn't replace Arteta, he'd replace Ramsey.
posted on 10/1/15
Viviano's Debut (U19138)
All that said, yes Patrick Vieira for Arsenal was more often than not B2B but certainly not always and for Juve, Inter and City he became less B2B and more DM.
The reason he'd replace Arteta is because he has the attributes to succeed in the position and Arteta doesn't... simple as that.
But anyway, real problem with Arteta is that he provides zero bite and little defensive protection.
Either we need to change tactics to accommodate Arteta and have all our players press the opposition - Mert would need dropping for this. Or, we need an out and out DM enforcer to protect the defence who can never push too high with Mert in the side which creats gaps - Arteta therefore isn't suitable.
At the moment we don't have the personnel to fit an effective style against anything but poor to average opposition. Even with the right players our manager and medical staff would still be an issue.
Page 2 of 2