comment by Viva Vela (U17571)
posted 15 seconds ago
Yeah, pretty much
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You might want to read that again then.
If any working class or poor person thinks the likes of ukip of conservatives will help them, or have their interests at heart, they are deluded or completely misguided. Both those parties are as self serving as they come. As are big parts of labour. You may disagree with Corbyn on foreign policy etc, but in terms of having the intrest of the working class and less advantaged in society at heart, then Corbyn is genuinely in politics to help those people. Cameron and Farage are in no way interested in that. Even those on the right would back that up
Song
I opposed bombing,and iraq intervention,also kabul,and isis are taking over from the taliban.
I get this all of the time,but read my posts.
I do await answer from corbyn etc as to how we deal with anti-islam skum daesh,or assad,or boko haram,or nutters such as saddam and gadaffi.
Global extremism from islamist thugs is a cancer.
Ox
The class label is boring,and gladly dying out here.
People work and study hard,and change what we refer to as class,and the old labour miners,dockers,link is gone.
Corbyn is backed by leftist activists,many of whom sneer at the white working class british.
When working class folk can,they leave working class areas,schools,due to ambition.Less well off often vote ukip or bnp now.
We are told muslims attack us,per red ken,because we bomb muslims,so does that mean attacking daesh is an attack on islam?
Careful now.
If a muslim attacks a christmas crowd in california,can a mad christian or ayran retaliate,using the momentum,left unity and red ken corbyn rationale of you started it?
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 8 minutes ago
We are told muslims attack us,per red ken,because we bomb muslims,so does that mean attacking daesh is an attack on islam?
Careful now.
If a muslim attacks a christmas crowd in california,can a mad christian or ayran retaliate,using the momentum,left unity and red ken corbyn rationale of you started it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
See... you made the same mistake right there yourself. "We are told muslims..."
They claim to practice Islam but don't. They are terrorists. So the rest of your train of thought holds no water in that regard. And the point was to be careful about the action taken. Attacking terrorists is one thing but no bomb can only target that group, which is what the Tories have alluded to in recent weeks. Once you start killing innocents while claiming to only (want to) kill terrorists, you're opening yourself up to a whole load more trouble than any action that only kills terrorists.
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 25 minutes ago
Ox
The class label is boring,and gladly dying out here.
People work and study hard,and change what we refer to as class,and the old labour miners,dockers,link is gone.
Corbyn is backed by leftist activists,many of whom sneer at the white working class british.
When working class folk can,they leave working class areas,schools,due to ambition.Less well off often vote ukip or bnp now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think classism is dying and that only the poor vote UKIP, then you're sadly mistaken...
Song
You were not careful,and I oppose bombing..no bombs,bombs bad,no iraq war...etc.
Red ken tells us muslim terrorists attack because innocent muslims are attacked,so muslims should attack daesh then,as ken says so.
We c a n debate if those attacking in paris,london,beirut,california,kabul,kenya,sudan,egypt,tunisia,turkey,pakistan,mali,etc are muslim all day,but they claim that label.
Radical muslim clerics preach hate,from saudi arabia,for example,brainwashing thick losers,just as thick white racists attacked a black church and anti-abortion bigots bomb and shoot at clinics.
How do you stop daesh killing muslims and others,in the name of islam,when the quran says otherwise?
Negotiate or fight,or both?
Classism sounds awful,and I see people as people,but hey,go fight a class war,man.
Suppose some have to create an us and them,and religion,race and sexuality are out of bounds,so get the classes divided,eat the rich,or smash the oiks.
Classism...when working class people get money,why do they move,climb the social ladder,take up golf and speak proper,lol.
And why do well off nerds try to be street gangsta,ffs.
Yea,bass politics on human nature,greed,snobbery,reverse snobbery and see how that goes.
Humans are funny little things.
Goodnight song,and take it easy.
I am not a tory,ukip,bnp or bomb em all man,and do not want any innocent person killed.
I await the strategy to defeat daesh and friends,and I k ow the west is culpable...i want radical islamists tot a ke respon s ibility for spre a ding hate too,ju s t as we blame bl a ir and bush,oil men and weapons dealers.
Humans are naughty.
agree with op - saw the love in online about benn speech so listened in full and couldn't really see what all the fuss was about. had 2 thoughts about it - how sheep-like all media to universally take the same angle from 10 hour debate about bombing into syria and secondly how bad were all the other speeches if benn's was the best?
Zin
Corbyn is an awful leader,speechmaker,male model,personality ......and should really be a mature srudent at north london poly,hating and debating all day.
God bluebells, do you read what you write? Utterly dreadful stuff devoid of fact or truth.
Elaborate Gir,old bean.
Is corbyn a good labour leader?
Are isis nice?
Should I have supported the Iraq wars,and bombing now,or the Libya and Afghan episodes?
Are left unity and momentum free to bully,and call labour MP's baby killers,while posting pics of severed heads,knives and dead bodies?
Did Hilary Benn make a bad speech?
Go on,educate me,oh wise one.
Gir
With all respect,I post from my own non-party view,and when I see racism,sectarianism,class hate,stupid comments,hate posts,I reply,or give an opinion.
Often I may post on the cuff,but I stand over my ramblings.
As much as I disagree with bombing, given the indiscriminate nature of explosives, what is the immediate alternative? Do nothing and thousands of innocent people in Syria will die tomorrow anyway.
ISIS are reportedly making $50m monthly from Oil sales, I'd imagine they are sitting on a fair wad of cash so sanctions wouldn't hit them hard for a few months. All the while, they rack up the innocent dead count.
Troops on the ground, with a tangible plan, is the only immediate solution. But if you think anybody is going to send in troops without a bombing run first you're facking dreaming. If your opposition to troops on the ground is "putting our own in harm's way" then you're distinguishing one group of people's importance over another.
If your argument is that it's not our responsibility, I disagree. We created this situation with an amateurish invasion and subsequently terrible exit strategy in Iraq, then sent weapons to Syria, making it 100% our responsibility. Nobody wants to see those mistakes repeated, but if your solution is pacifism you are also facilitating the death of innocents.
Do we stand idly by because we want to get one over on the Tories? Just shouting about getting rid of the Tories isn't a solution to every problem. It's not even a Tory specific issue, the French Socialist Party have gone to war with ISIS, as have Russia, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Jordan, Lebanon, Qatar... Even fecking Iran. That's a whole lot of different conflicting views and states coming together for a divvy of that oil money they're all in it for together.
They're all fighting ISIS for a reason, because their ideology has no place in the modern world. If Tory policies are oppressive surely you have some problem with ISIS policy of beheading people in the streets or burning them alive? That doesn't fit the pre-determined Left wing argument, though.
This has spilt over from the ridiculous war we started and it was wrong to invade Iraq but it's even worse now than we've facked off and left a job half done. We can sit and nitpick over all the mistakes we've made and the suffering that continues to cause, or we can try and fix the mistakes.
I don't want war. I don't want violence, but we live in the real world where these things exist. Liberal people need to fight for liberal values.
Nir
What a post,friend,and Hilary Benn may be in touch,as he seeks a writer to keep his standards so high.big man.
I agree with your well thought out analysis,covering every angle,and moral quandary for us all in 2015.
Hats off.
We had to confront the facists in the past,be they from Germany,or the red wan's in the USSR,and now we witness facists using and abusing islam,killing in the name of.
Watching evil spread and take innocent life is not an option,and I am not a big bomb them fan,or putting western troops in.The UN,arab states,Turkey,FSA rebels,yazidi's,kurds and local Iraq and Syrian Christian's even,are there,ready to remove isis.
The millions of refugees in neighbouring lands and Europe can also be trained to take their homes and lives back.
If so called western forces go in ,we get called infidel crusaders,so we require cross community,multi-national and multi-faith troops on the ground there,and in Africa,Pakistan,and now Afghanistan again,as daesh are taking Taliban roles,as we type.
tbbab
Always considered myself to be left leaning in my values, but you have to look at the situation objectively before you form an opinion. It's ridiculous how many people are more worried about fitting the problem to their predetermined left/right wing argument rather than thinking of ways to deal with it.
Especially in Scotland we're going to end up like the boy who cried wolf. Yeah, Cameron's a cant but people are acting as if he's worse than Assad/ISIS
He made a decent speech but it doesn't make him right on the issue, his speech was too emotional and basically saying 'we have to attack them because they attacked us', we need to take emotion out of it. Cameron used the emotions after Paris to win the vote, in reality our air strikes will achieve little but he doesn't want to be on the sidelines while the other big boys are dropping the bombs.
There's too many political games going on which is why we're not close to making any real progress. USA and others have been bombing Syria for a long time with little effect so what are our air strikes gonna do that theirs aren't, we all have shared intelligence anyway. We can drop precision bombs from thousands of feet and tap into anyone's phone and internet communications so I can't believe we don't have the slightest clue who IS are selling oil or getting funds and weapons from (our 'allies' btw)
Things are gonna get worse before they get better and once people realise that then Corbyn's popularity will start rising.
Nir
I know how the posh Dave and tories are regarded in Scotland,and here too....the poll tax,indy debate,hunger strike and Anglo-Irish diktat has angered Scots,socialists,nationalists,republicans and unionists/loyalists.
As you point out,there is a far left agenda,focusing more on hammering Cam,than the mass murderers in daesh,and Assad.The far left are way beyond socialist left leaning thought,imo,and seek to twist everything,to suit their hate.
Salmond,and the SNP do seem to hate the tories so much they are prepared to ignore assad and isis evil.How will they save lives,as this has gone on for years,and just because Labour,Blair and Scot,John Reid messed up initially,logical thought can distinguish between other events,even if they occur in the same areas.
8bit
Fatal line in your post was,things are gonna get worse,before they get better,and then Corbyn's popularity will rise..........so this is your take on the rise of evil daesh,and assad killing his people.
I think you have highlighted what Nir and I were saying,with regards to this being used by the Corbyn left to bash tories,rather than saving innocent lives in so many parts of the world.
You need to think outside the far left box.
For example,we are told this is a rich man's war for oil,yet we are bombing isis oil targets this very day,and I do not agree with our bombing role,btw.
Trying to raise who buys oil from whom is pedantic,when placed alongside the mass genocide from assad,and extremist muslim's,who use and abuse islam,to kill,land grab and rule.
8bit
I am sure we know who is buying oil from daesh,and that includes Assad,so what is your point,and how can we stop isis taking oil revenue from people,if we are not involved,on the ground?That makes us infidel invaders,of course,so how do you suggest we stop isis selling oil to bad people,you do not like?Will corbyn and abbott phone daesh leaders to fix it?
We all know isis is funded in part by muslim extremists in Saudi,Kuwait and Qatar,and wahibbi hate preachers have spawned the fundamentalist death cult,but what do you suggest we do,on that front.
Russia are not nice,but we may be allied with them too,as well as Turkey,who let Kobane fall,and held kurds back,as isis killed their people just over the border.Should we shun Russia and Turkey,our Nato chum's?
The kurds take on isis everyday,and I salute them,but kurd nationalism will demand a homeland,and this could see kurd terro,ala PKK ,against our so called allie,Turkey,so yea,it is complex,messy and horrible,but goes beyondwhat helps the corbyn leftists,and local tory hate mobs,imo.
Sign in if you want to comment
Hillary Benn
Page 2 of 3
posted on 4/12/15
Again, yeah pretty much.
posted on 4/12/15
comment by Viva Vela (U17571)
posted 15 seconds ago
Yeah, pretty much
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You might want to read that again then.
posted on 4/12/15
If any working class or poor person thinks the likes of ukip of conservatives will help them, or have their interests at heart, they are deluded or completely misguided. Both those parties are as self serving as they come. As are big parts of labour. You may disagree with Corbyn on foreign policy etc, but in terms of having the intrest of the working class and less advantaged in society at heart, then Corbyn is genuinely in politics to help those people. Cameron and Farage are in no way interested in that. Even those on the right would back that up
posted on 4/12/15
Song
I opposed bombing,and iraq intervention,also kabul,and isis are taking over from the taliban.
I get this all of the time,but read my posts.
I do await answer from corbyn etc as to how we deal with anti-islam skum daesh,or assad,or boko haram,or nutters such as saddam and gadaffi.
Global extremism from islamist thugs is a cancer.
posted on 4/12/15
Ox
The class label is boring,and gladly dying out here.
People work and study hard,and change what we refer to as class,and the old labour miners,dockers,link is gone.
Corbyn is backed by leftist activists,many of whom sneer at the white working class british.
When working class folk can,they leave working class areas,schools,due to ambition.Less well off often vote ukip or bnp now.
posted on 4/12/15
We are told muslims attack us,per red ken,because we bomb muslims,so does that mean attacking daesh is an attack on islam?
Careful now.
If a muslim attacks a christmas crowd in california,can a mad christian or ayran retaliate,using the momentum,left unity and red ken corbyn rationale of you started it?
posted on 4/12/15
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 8 minutes ago
We are told muslims attack us,per red ken,because we bomb muslims,so does that mean attacking daesh is an attack on islam?
Careful now.
If a muslim attacks a christmas crowd in california,can a mad christian or ayran retaliate,using the momentum,left unity and red ken corbyn rationale of you started it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
See... you made the same mistake right there yourself. "We are told muslims..."
They claim to practice Islam but don't. They are terrorists. So the rest of your train of thought holds no water in that regard. And the point was to be careful about the action taken. Attacking terrorists is one thing but no bomb can only target that group, which is what the Tories have alluded to in recent weeks. Once you start killing innocents while claiming to only (want to) kill terrorists, you're opening yourself up to a whole load more trouble than any action that only kills terrorists.
posted on 4/12/15
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 25 minutes ago
Ox
The class label is boring,and gladly dying out here.
People work and study hard,and change what we refer to as class,and the old labour miners,dockers,link is gone.
Corbyn is backed by leftist activists,many of whom sneer at the white working class british.
When working class folk can,they leave working class areas,schools,due to ambition.Less well off often vote ukip or bnp now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think classism is dying and that only the poor vote UKIP, then you're sadly mistaken...
posted on 4/12/15
Song
You were not careful,and I oppose bombing..no bombs,bombs bad,no iraq war...etc.
Red ken tells us muslim terrorists attack because innocent muslims are attacked,so muslims should attack daesh then,as ken says so.
We c a n debate if those attacking in paris,london,beirut,california,kabul,kenya,sudan,egypt,tunisia,turkey,pakistan,mali,etc are muslim all day,but they claim that label.
Radical muslim clerics preach hate,from saudi arabia,for example,brainwashing thick losers,just as thick white racists attacked a black church and anti-abortion bigots bomb and shoot at clinics.
How do you stop daesh killing muslims and others,in the name of islam,when the quran says otherwise?
Negotiate or fight,or both?
posted on 4/12/15
Classism sounds awful,and I see people as people,but hey,go fight a class war,man.
Suppose some have to create an us and them,and religion,race and sexuality are out of bounds,so get the classes divided,eat the rich,or smash the oiks.
Classism...when working class people get money,why do they move,climb the social ladder,take up golf and speak proper,lol.
And why do well off nerds try to be street gangsta,ffs.
Yea,bass politics on human nature,greed,snobbery,reverse snobbery and see how that goes.
Humans are funny little things.
posted on 5/12/15
Goodnight song,and take it easy.
I am not a tory,ukip,bnp or bomb em all man,and do not want any innocent person killed.
I await the strategy to defeat daesh and friends,and I k ow the west is culpable...i want radical islamists tot a ke respon s ibility for spre a ding hate too,ju s t as we blame bl a ir and bush,oil men and weapons dealers.
Humans are naughty.
posted on 5/12/15
agree with op - saw the love in online about benn speech so listened in full and couldn't really see what all the fuss was about. had 2 thoughts about it - how sheep-like all media to universally take the same angle from 10 hour debate about bombing into syria and secondly how bad were all the other speeches if benn's was the best?
posted on 5/12/15
Zin
Corbyn is an awful leader,speechmaker,male model,personality ......and should really be a mature srudent at north london poly,hating and debating all day.
posted on 5/12/15
God bluebells, do you read what you write? Utterly dreadful stuff devoid of fact or truth.
posted on 5/12/15
We're all so fickle.
posted on 5/12/15
Elaborate Gir,old bean.
Is corbyn a good labour leader?
Are isis nice?
Should I have supported the Iraq wars,and bombing now,or the Libya and Afghan episodes?
Are left unity and momentum free to bully,and call labour MP's baby killers,while posting pics of severed heads,knives and dead bodies?
Did Hilary Benn make a bad speech?
Go on,educate me,oh wise one.
posted on 5/12/15
Gir
With all respect,I post from my own non-party view,and when I see racism,sectarianism,class hate,stupid comments,hate posts,I reply,or give an opinion.
Often I may post on the cuff,but I stand over my ramblings.
posted on 5/12/15
As much as I disagree with bombing, given the indiscriminate nature of explosives, what is the immediate alternative? Do nothing and thousands of innocent people in Syria will die tomorrow anyway.
ISIS are reportedly making $50m monthly from Oil sales, I'd imagine they are sitting on a fair wad of cash so sanctions wouldn't hit them hard for a few months. All the while, they rack up the innocent dead count.
Troops on the ground, with a tangible plan, is the only immediate solution. But if you think anybody is going to send in troops without a bombing run first you're facking dreaming. If your opposition to troops on the ground is "putting our own in harm's way" then you're distinguishing one group of people's importance over another.
If your argument is that it's not our responsibility, I disagree. We created this situation with an amateurish invasion and subsequently terrible exit strategy in Iraq, then sent weapons to Syria, making it 100% our responsibility. Nobody wants to see those mistakes repeated, but if your solution is pacifism you are also facilitating the death of innocents.
Do we stand idly by because we want to get one over on the Tories? Just shouting about getting rid of the Tories isn't a solution to every problem. It's not even a Tory specific issue, the French Socialist Party have gone to war with ISIS, as have Russia, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Jordan, Lebanon, Qatar... Even fecking Iran. That's a whole lot of different conflicting views and states coming together for a divvy of that oil money they're all in it for together.
They're all fighting ISIS for a reason, because their ideology has no place in the modern world. If Tory policies are oppressive surely you have some problem with ISIS policy of beheading people in the streets or burning them alive? That doesn't fit the pre-determined Left wing argument, though.
This has spilt over from the ridiculous war we started and it was wrong to invade Iraq but it's even worse now than we've facked off and left a job half done. We can sit and nitpick over all the mistakes we've made and the suffering that continues to cause, or we can try and fix the mistakes.
I don't want war. I don't want violence, but we live in the real world where these things exist. Liberal people need to fight for liberal values.
posted on 5/12/15
Nir
What a post,friend,and Hilary Benn may be in touch,as he seeks a writer to keep his standards so high.big man.
I agree with your well thought out analysis,covering every angle,and moral quandary for us all in 2015.
Hats off.
posted on 5/12/15
We had to confront the facists in the past,be they from Germany,or the red wan's in the USSR,and now we witness facists using and abusing islam,killing in the name of.
Watching evil spread and take innocent life is not an option,and I am not a big bomb them fan,or putting western troops in.The UN,arab states,Turkey,FSA rebels,yazidi's,kurds and local Iraq and Syrian Christian's even,are there,ready to remove isis.
The millions of refugees in neighbouring lands and Europe can also be trained to take their homes and lives back.
If so called western forces go in ,we get called infidel crusaders,so we require cross community,multi-national and multi-faith troops on the ground there,and in Africa,Pakistan,and now Afghanistan again,as daesh are taking Taliban roles,as we type.
posted on 5/12/15
tbbab
Always considered myself to be left leaning in my values, but you have to look at the situation objectively before you form an opinion. It's ridiculous how many people are more worried about fitting the problem to their predetermined left/right wing argument rather than thinking of ways to deal with it.
Especially in Scotland we're going to end up like the boy who cried wolf. Yeah, Cameron's a cant but people are acting as if he's worse than Assad/ISIS
posted on 5/12/15
He made a decent speech but it doesn't make him right on the issue, his speech was too emotional and basically saying 'we have to attack them because they attacked us', we need to take emotion out of it. Cameron used the emotions after Paris to win the vote, in reality our air strikes will achieve little but he doesn't want to be on the sidelines while the other big boys are dropping the bombs.
There's too many political games going on which is why we're not close to making any real progress. USA and others have been bombing Syria for a long time with little effect so what are our air strikes gonna do that theirs aren't, we all have shared intelligence anyway. We can drop precision bombs from thousands of feet and tap into anyone's phone and internet communications so I can't believe we don't have the slightest clue who IS are selling oil or getting funds and weapons from (our 'allies' btw)
Things are gonna get worse before they get better and once people realise that then Corbyn's popularity will start rising.
posted on 5/12/15
Nir
I know how the posh Dave and tories are regarded in Scotland,and here too....the poll tax,indy debate,hunger strike and Anglo-Irish diktat has angered Scots,socialists,nationalists,republicans and unionists/loyalists.
As you point out,there is a far left agenda,focusing more on hammering Cam,than the mass murderers in daesh,and Assad.The far left are way beyond socialist left leaning thought,imo,and seek to twist everything,to suit their hate.
Salmond,and the SNP do seem to hate the tories so much they are prepared to ignore assad and isis evil.How will they save lives,as this has gone on for years,and just because Labour,Blair and Scot,John Reid messed up initially,logical thought can distinguish between other events,even if they occur in the same areas.
posted on 5/12/15
8bit
Fatal line in your post was,things are gonna get worse,before they get better,and then Corbyn's popularity will rise..........so this is your take on the rise of evil daesh,and assad killing his people.
I think you have highlighted what Nir and I were saying,with regards to this being used by the Corbyn left to bash tories,rather than saving innocent lives in so many parts of the world.
You need to think outside the far left box.
For example,we are told this is a rich man's war for oil,yet we are bombing isis oil targets this very day,and I do not agree with our bombing role,btw.
Trying to raise who buys oil from whom is pedantic,when placed alongside the mass genocide from assad,and extremist muslim's,who use and abuse islam,to kill,land grab and rule.
posted on 5/12/15
8bit
I am sure we know who is buying oil from daesh,and that includes Assad,so what is your point,and how can we stop isis taking oil revenue from people,if we are not involved,on the ground?That makes us infidel invaders,of course,so how do you suggest we stop isis selling oil to bad people,you do not like?Will corbyn and abbott phone daesh leaders to fix it?
We all know isis is funded in part by muslim extremists in Saudi,Kuwait and Qatar,and wahibbi hate preachers have spawned the fundamentalist death cult,but what do you suggest we do,on that front.
Russia are not nice,but we may be allied with them too,as well as Turkey,who let Kobane fall,and held kurds back,as isis killed their people just over the border.Should we shun Russia and Turkey,our Nato chum's?
The kurds take on isis everyday,and I salute them,but kurd nationalism will demand a homeland,and this could see kurd terro,ala PKK ,against our so called allie,Turkey,so yea,it is complex,messy and horrible,but goes beyondwhat helps the corbyn leftists,and local tory hate mobs,imo.
Page 2 of 3