comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 30 minutes ago
"I'm not saying that is necessarily enough but if you consider some of the teams he achieved top 4 with (Denilson, Squillachi, Chamakh, Arshavin etc) I do give him credit."
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I honestly loathe this rhetoric. Sure, Squillachi, Chamakh, Arshavin, Denilson and the like were the absolute pits, but here's where the argument falls down:
1) Leicester (and elsewhere Atletico when they won the title) have proved that you don't need world class plaeyrs all over the field to at least compete (we weren't competing in those years just ensuring we did enough to finish above Spurs, Villa, Everton etc). If Wenger is this managerial genius many have him pegged as, why has he never been able to extract overperformance from his individuals and his units?
2) How much of an achievement is finishing top four really when your rivals for the position have players like Zat Knight, Ashley Young, Darren Bent, David Bentley, Huerelio Gomes, Peter Crouch, Sebastian Bassong, Andy Johnson etc as their players? And then have the managerial might of 'Arry, Moyesy and Martin O'Neill directing them? Wenger was able to call on the likes of Arshavin, Nasri, Fabregas, Van Persie (all of whom would have been the stand out players in any of those rivals teams) and had a wage bill that dwarfed many of his rivals for the spot and I'm supposed to believe his achievement was some God-like gift? Please.
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Agree with this.
Saying it is an achievement to stayvim the top 4, when the resources available (50m a year in wages more than Spurs) should make that bare minimum.
We have had the 6th largest (or thereabouts) wage bill for years. I would not see finishing 6th as an achievement at all to be honest. It's where we should finish
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 2 hours, 5 minutes ago
"I'm not saying that is necessarily enough but if you consider some of the teams he achieved top 4 with (Denilson, Squillachi, Chamakh, Arshavin etc) I do give him credit."
============================================
I honestly loathe this rhetoric. Sure, Squillachi, Chamakh, Arshavin, Denilson and the like were the absolute pits, but here's where the argument falls down:
1) Leicester (and elsewhere Atletico when they won the title) have proved that you don't need world class plaeyrs all over the field to at least compete (we weren't competing in those years just ensuring we did enough to finish above Spurs, Villa, Everton etc). If Wenger is this managerial genius many have him pegged as, why has he never been able to extract overperformance from his individuals and his units?
2) How much of an achievement is finishing top four really when your rivals for the position have players like Zat Knight, Ashley Young, Darren Bent, David Bentley, Huerelio Gomes, Peter Crouch, Sebastian Bassong, Andy Johnson etc as their players? And then have the managerial might of 'Arry, Moyesy and Martin O'Neill directing them? Wenger was able to call on the likes of Arshavin, Nasri, Fabregas, Van Persie (all of whom would have been the stand out players in any of those rivals teams) and had a wage bill that dwarfed many of his rivals for the spot and I'm supposed to believe his achievement was some God-like gift? Please.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate your views and I understand your frustrations.
All I was saying in mine was basically I don't feel Wenger has underachieved. If we agree that Arsenal have been within the top 4 best teams in the league then I would say finishing 4th is meeting expectations. Finishing lower is underachieving and winning the title is surpassing expectations.
I'm by no means advocating an acceptance of mediocrity and if all a manager does is just meet expectations year on year they are not going to be appreciated. With the stadium move etc I do feel that all Wenger could do was this so it was an exceptional circumstance.
I also feel Arsenal are improving and have improved over the last three seasons. Obviously the FA Cups have helped but also it seems like it has gone from fending off the Villas, Evertons and Spurs to maintain fourth to now be knocking on the door for the title. Still think you have a great chance this year and coming years.
I guess it's just a difference of opinion in what over and under achievement is and as a paying fan you have every right to expect a lot.
If Spurs or Leicester Win the League
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posted on 9/2/16
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 30 minutes ago
"I'm not saying that is necessarily enough but if you consider some of the teams he achieved top 4 with (Denilson, Squillachi, Chamakh, Arshavin etc) I do give him credit."
============================================
I honestly loathe this rhetoric. Sure, Squillachi, Chamakh, Arshavin, Denilson and the like were the absolute pits, but here's where the argument falls down:
1) Leicester (and elsewhere Atletico when they won the title) have proved that you don't need world class plaeyrs all over the field to at least compete (we weren't competing in those years just ensuring we did enough to finish above Spurs, Villa, Everton etc). If Wenger is this managerial genius many have him pegged as, why has he never been able to extract overperformance from his individuals and his units?
2) How much of an achievement is finishing top four really when your rivals for the position have players like Zat Knight, Ashley Young, Darren Bent, David Bentley, Huerelio Gomes, Peter Crouch, Sebastian Bassong, Andy Johnson etc as their players? And then have the managerial might of 'Arry, Moyesy and Martin O'Neill directing them? Wenger was able to call on the likes of Arshavin, Nasri, Fabregas, Van Persie (all of whom would have been the stand out players in any of those rivals teams) and had a wage bill that dwarfed many of his rivals for the spot and I'm supposed to believe his achievement was some God-like gift? Please.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with this.
Saying it is an achievement to stayvim the top 4, when the resources available (50m a year in wages more than Spurs) should make that bare minimum.
We have had the 6th largest (or thereabouts) wage bill for years. I would not see finishing 6th as an achievement at all to be honest. It's where we should finish
posted on 9/2/16
Yes
posted on 9/2/16
comment by Herbie (U7136)
posted 2 hours, 5 minutes ago
"I'm not saying that is necessarily enough but if you consider some of the teams he achieved top 4 with (Denilson, Squillachi, Chamakh, Arshavin etc) I do give him credit."
============================================
I honestly loathe this rhetoric. Sure, Squillachi, Chamakh, Arshavin, Denilson and the like were the absolute pits, but here's where the argument falls down:
1) Leicester (and elsewhere Atletico when they won the title) have proved that you don't need world class plaeyrs all over the field to at least compete (we weren't competing in those years just ensuring we did enough to finish above Spurs, Villa, Everton etc). If Wenger is this managerial genius many have him pegged as, why has he never been able to extract overperformance from his individuals and his units?
2) How much of an achievement is finishing top four really when your rivals for the position have players like Zat Knight, Ashley Young, Darren Bent, David Bentley, Huerelio Gomes, Peter Crouch, Sebastian Bassong, Andy Johnson etc as their players? And then have the managerial might of 'Arry, Moyesy and Martin O'Neill directing them? Wenger was able to call on the likes of Arshavin, Nasri, Fabregas, Van Persie (all of whom would have been the stand out players in any of those rivals teams) and had a wage bill that dwarfed many of his rivals for the spot and I'm supposed to believe his achievement was some God-like gift? Please.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate your views and I understand your frustrations.
All I was saying in mine was basically I don't feel Wenger has underachieved. If we agree that Arsenal have been within the top 4 best teams in the league then I would say finishing 4th is meeting expectations. Finishing lower is underachieving and winning the title is surpassing expectations.
I'm by no means advocating an acceptance of mediocrity and if all a manager does is just meet expectations year on year they are not going to be appreciated. With the stadium move etc I do feel that all Wenger could do was this so it was an exceptional circumstance.
I also feel Arsenal are improving and have improved over the last three seasons. Obviously the FA Cups have helped but also it seems like it has gone from fending off the Villas, Evertons and Spurs to maintain fourth to now be knocking on the door for the title. Still think you have a great chance this year and coming years.
I guess it's just a difference of opinion in what over and under achievement is and as a paying fan you have every right to expect a lot.
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