comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 3 minutes ago
The drain on public services being down to immigration is the biggest myth being peddled.
The NHS for example is the biggest example of how vital immigration is.
Schools, housing etc are result if systematic govt failures and poor planning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it's not the only reason but not a myth. How can 300k extra people in the country every year not have an effect on public services when they'll all be using public services? They're already struggling at the moment so if we stay in the EU things will continue to get worse as they have done for the past 10 years.
About the NHS of course immigrants are vital. Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'we need 20 thousand nurses, or 10k doctors, let's bring in that amount. And bring in the best people from around the world.' Instead of letting in 300k mostly unskilled migrants every year just so a few of them can work in the NHS?
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 3 minutes ago
The drain on public services being down to immigration is the biggest myth being peddled.
The NHS for example is the biggest example of how vital immigration is.
Schools, housing etc are result if systematic govt failures and poor planning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it's not the only reason but not a myth. How can 300k extra people in the country every year not have an effect on public services when they'll all be using public services? They're already struggling at the moment so if we stay in the EU things will continue to get worse as they have done for the past 10 years.
About the NHS of course immigrants are vital. Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'we need 20 thousand nurses, or 10k doctors, let's bring in that amount. And bring in the best people from around the world.' Instead of letting in 300k mostly unskilled migrants every year just so a few of them can work in the NHS?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they are putting more into the country through taxes and through employment in public services.
Why aren't you asking the govt. what are they doing with this extra revenue.
They are the ones cutting services, not building quick enough, allowing land barons.
I always used to wonder how the Spanish used divide an conquer to take over the Americas, how can the people be so easily manipulated?
It seems very little as change and the naive fools are plenty, fighting the false enemy their real enemy has told them to fight.
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 3 minutes ago
The drain on public services being down to immigration is the biggest myth being peddled.
The NHS for example is the biggest example of how vital immigration is.
Schools, housing etc are result if systematic govt failures and poor planning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it's not the only reason but not a myth. How can 300k extra people in the country every year not have an effect on public services when they'll all be using public services? They're already struggling at the moment so if we stay in the EU things will continue to get worse as they have done for the past 10 years.
About the NHS of course immigrants are vital. Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'we need 20 thousand nurses, or 10k doctors, let's bring in that amount. And bring in the best people from around the world.' Instead of letting in 300k mostly unskilled migrants every year just so a few of them can work in the NHS?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but the problem isn't immigration for people who work here, it's that:
(a) our economy is generating too many jobs for unskilled workers that don't pay very well
(b) the benefits from immigration are only going to companies who employ them and the Treasury, while UK workers only experience the costs on their public sector services
Both of those problems need to be addressed by our government, and will persist even if we leave the EU. If we leave we'll either have to accept freedom of movement because we want to keep access to the single market, or we'll have to pay huge tariffs if we want to have immigration control, which will make everything cost more, and significantly outweigh the benefits of reducing pressure on services.
Furthermore we will have an opportunity to directly tackle the first problem in 2017 when, if we stay in the EU, the UK will become president of the EU Council, and will set the agenda. We can finally implement the harmonisation of free trade of services, which is something that is far harder to break down trade barriers on than trade in goods, and an area which the UK is a specialist in.
If we can sell services to the rest of Europe we will create a lot of higher paying jobs, and start to tackle our large trade deficit. And as services are much less price sensitive we'll be able to charge higher prices and pay higher wages than we can in manufacturing.
Farage et al have linked immigration to this debate because they know people are very angry about it (in part because they themselves have made sure people blame immigration for their ills). The fact is leaving the EU won't give us control over immigration except at a very high price - and it isn't immigration that's the problem, it's that we see all the costs and none of the benefits, because the UK economic system is slanted in favour of the very wealthy.
comment by Aggers Right Elbow (U3402)
posted 2 hours, 18 minutes ago
It's no surprise that economists and bankers are encouraging us to stay in. By nature they like stability and the idea the may rake in less money in the short term is no doubt a terrifying prospect to them. Basically a lot of those commenting are too rich to see what is happening elsewhere in the country.
The imigration issue concerns me far more than money. 10 years ago I could walk down the street and hear people speaking English, it's now almost 50 50 with Eastern European language. I would like to see a points system adopted as Australia have, that way we can still allow people into our country who will contribute rather than drain our NHS and welfare state.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You're so facking stupid it's unreal ARE.
comment by D4thincarnation (U2520)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 3 minutes ago
The drain on public services being down to immigration is the biggest myth being peddled.
The NHS for example is the biggest example of how vital immigration is.
Schools, housing etc are result if systematic govt failures and poor planning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it's not the only reason but not a myth. How can 300k extra people in the country every year not have an effect on public services when they'll all be using public services? They're already struggling at the moment so if we stay in the EU things will continue to get worse as they have done for the past 10 years.
About the NHS of course immigrants are vital. Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'we need 20 thousand nurses, or 10k doctors, let's bring in that amount. And bring in the best people from around the world.' Instead of letting in 300k mostly unskilled migrants every year just so a few of them can work in the NHS?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they are putting more into the country through taxes and through employment in public services.
Why aren't you asking the govt. what are they doing with this extra revenue.
They are the ones cutting services, not building quick enough, allowing land barons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
the net contribution EU migrants make is a small amount and not going to make much of a difference to our economy. That study was also comparing tax contributions vs state benefits they receive but probably didn't count the cost of them going to school, hospital or other freebies. what I said before though the negative impacts of this level of immigration outweighs any small economic contribution.
The rich end tories (and big business) and middle class left wing like immigration.
It's the middle class right wing and the working class that don't like it, which together make up a lot of the populace and why leave is doing so well.
Personally, I've been irritated by Corbyns approach so far in terms of not selling remain to what should be the core demographic of his party.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by D4thincarnation (U2520)
posted 32 minutes ago
If you want to hand over full power to the posh tory boys to abuse the working class even more without restriction. Then vote leave. We will have these guys run the country with very little separation of powers, not even an effective 2nd house, and with the first past the post system, many of your views will be unrepresentative.
The 1% in full control of the 99% not answerable to anyone.
See you public services dwindle even more, the divide between rich and poor become greater and generally become a more hateful and xenophobic society where many industries and growth will crumble, Vote leave, you mugs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If they do anything close to that they will lose the next election so it will never happen. There's only so much they can do while still pulling the wool over people's eyes. The vast majority of Tory voters don't even want these kind of things to happen so it won't.
But while we've been in the EU especially over the last 10 years, public services are already dwindling, the gap between rich and poor is bigger than ever and society is more xenophobic and racist... that should not be an argument for staying in
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 1 hour, 55 minutes ago
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 39 seconds ago
Lol at the leftwingers pretending to care for the working class, but as soon as they vote in their interest they're all inbr ed Jeremy Kyle guests.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is such a valid point.
Labour voters thinking for themselves become racist bigots, according to some leftist politico's.
Suddenly, decent working class folk are Jeremy Kyle plebs, if they dare think outside the socialist or ultrapc liberal box.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For the 500th time on these threads, the polls clearly show Labour voters overwhelmingly support a vote to Remain.
Conservative and UKIP supporters will take us out of the EU, if anyone.
If you like I can post the link again, but you really should give up on this argument BB; it's just not true.
comment by Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 3 minutes ago
The drain on public services being down to immigration is the biggest myth being peddled.
The NHS for example is the biggest example of how vital immigration is.
Schools, housing etc are result if systematic govt failures and poor planning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it's not the only reason but not a myth. How can 300k extra people in the country every year not have an effect on public services when they'll all be using public services? They're already struggling at the moment so if we stay in the EU things will continue to get worse as they have done for the past 10 years.
About the NHS of course immigrants are vital. Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'we need 20 thousand nurses, or 10k doctors, let's bring in that amount. And bring in the best people from around the world.' Instead of letting in 300k mostly unskilled migrants every year just so a few of them can work in the NHS?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but the problem isn't immigration for people who work here, it's that:
(a) our economy is generating too many jobs for unskilled workers that don't pay very well
(b) the benefits from immigration are only going to companies who employ them and the Treasury, while UK workers only experience the costs on their public sector services
Both of those problems need to be addressed by our government, and will persist even if we leave the EU. If we leave we'll either have to accept freedom of movement because we want to keep access to the single market, or we'll have to pay huge tariffs if we want to have immigration control, which will make everything cost more, and significantly outweigh the benefits of reducing pressure on services.
Furthermore we will have an opportunity to directly tackle the first problem in 2017 when, if we stay in the EU, the UK will become president of the EU Council, and will set the agenda. We can finally implement the harmonisation of free trade of services, which is something that is far harder to break down trade barriers on than trade in goods, and an area which the UK is a specialist in.
If we can sell services to the rest of Europe we will create a lot of higher paying jobs, and start to tackle our large trade deficit. And as services are much less price sensitive we'll be able to charge higher prices and pay higher wages than we can in manufacturing.
Farage et al have linked immigration to this debate because they know people are very angry about it (in part because they themselves have made sure people blame immigration for their ills). The fact is leaving the EU won't give us control over immigration except at a very high price - and it isn't immigration that's the problem, it's that we see all the costs and none of the benefits, because the UK economic system is slanted in favour of the very wealthy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The thing is people say we need to stay in the EU to solve these problems, but we've been in the EU for around 50 years so why haven't they tried to solve these problems already?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
actually all the time we are in the EU these problems are continuously getting worse, yet remain camp says we need to stay in and reform to improve these issues. I've come to the conclusion that it's all BS.
comment by 8bit (U2653)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
the net contribution EU migrants make is a small amount and not going to make much of a difference to our economy. That study was also comparing tax contributions vs state benefits they receive but probably didn't count the cost of them going to school, hospital or other freebies. what I said before though the negative impacts of this level of immigration outweighs any small economic contribution.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A net contribution is more money in than they take out, including all services. The issues is the govt are not taking that money and putting it into the infrastructure.
Our biggest drain on welfare comes from pensioners, then the British public
This was posted by Brian Eno-
Until recently I'd assumed there was no chance we'd vote to leave. However, recent polls seem to be showing 'Leave' and 'Remain' are neck and neck. Some polls even show 'Leave' leading.
You may have made up your mind and plan to vote (in which case ignore this letter), but if, like me, you've been complacent about the issue, it might be time to rethink. What the 'Leaves' have on their side is their unquenchable enthusiasm for a 'Great' Britain that they think we can revive - and several powerful media outlets to propagandise the idea. The Leavers know they can count on their demographic - primarily older people - to get out and vote, whereas the 'Remain' demographic is less reliable (and more complacent). And the Leavers have LOTS of money: seems like a lot of very wealthy people are anxious to get out of the EU.
I wonder why? Is it because many of the constraints on how badly you're allowed to treat workers have been put in place by the EU? Is it because the EU has insisted on environmental legislation which hampers the freedom-to-pollute of corporations and governments? Is it because the EU has established an international criminal court where all those people to whom we sell weapons might be called to account? Is it because the EU has tried to come up with some sort of humane response to immigration other than barbed wire and Trumpian walls?
I have a lot of misgivings about the way the EU is run, but they don't make me want to ditch the whole idea. I feel the EU is one of the only restraints on the kind of neo-liberal market fundamentalism that has seen inequality rising throughout the world. I feel that it has been a net force for good in promoting enlightened social and environmental agendas. It could and should be doing a better job at all these things, but to do any job at all it needs our support.
The only good outcome of this referendum is that it might remind us what the original mission of the EU was, and might motivate us to actually make it happen.
So...please vote. And please ask your friends to do the same.
- Brian
Why is everybody who is against immigration not showing the passion when Starbucks etc neglect to pay billions in tax?
I just don't get it.
You'ed make enemies out of people who are trying to come here for a a better life but let the corporate vampires take as much as they like.
The benefit cheats in the country are insignificant in number and the majority of benefits being dished out are to people who need it, like the elderly and disabled.
comment by VoteLeaveEU- TakeBackOurCountry (U5547)
posted 2 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Spaireland (U1250)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Spaireland (U1250)
posted 1 minute ago
Who is going to do all those jobs when the immigrants wont come to the UK any longer? Jobs as in flipping burgers in McD, BK, chucking chicking in a bowl at KFC, waiting tables, collecting garbage. I see the same in Ireland, Irish wont take the dirty jobs the immigrants are willing to fill. I havent seen much Irish doing these jobs, in fact they mostly are all immigrants and the Irish are happy to collect the dole or sponge of mum
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"You guys are racist, fascist, homophobic, sexist, misogynist, homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic, antisemitic bigots!"
"All Irish people are dole spongers"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats not what it says though, and it is first hand experience. Havent been served by a boy or girl with a thick Dub accent for ages.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
So your a Dubliner mate and wont be voting in the ref?
I'm in Dublin next weekend hopefully nursing a celebratory hangover!!
Staying in Ballsbridge love it..........
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am an immigrant living in Ireland
But please think very, very carefully about whether you really think people who come here to live and work and for the most part abide by our rules are the problem, or whether it's actually more likely to be the people in power. People who benefit from having immigration but give nothing back, and then blame the EU and immigrants and anyone they can for the country's problems instead of looking in the mirror. Who put their companies offshore to pay less tax. Who would sell the grandparents for a chance to run the country for five more years...
The problem is not immigration and it's not the EU where, for the most part, we largely cooperate with other countries to improve our economies, with lower air fares and lower mobile charges, and all those other boring things that individually don't amount to much, but soon add up to quite a lot.
It's the inequality at the top of our society, where vested interests are vying to get the power to slant the playing field even more in their favour which is the problem.
I saw a quote, and I can't remember where it's from, but essentially it says that things have started going wrong for capitalism ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Because instead of having to prove that capitalism was the best system against the Russians, all of a sudden the pressure was off. And ever since those with the most capital have not had to be responsible and have started taking ever larger slices of the pie. And I'd subscribe to that - we had a good model of an equitable capitalism but once we knew it was the best model we stopped trying to make it better, and let the greed of those at the top undermine it. I am not a weird leftie that thinks some kind of socialism would fix that, I still think capitalism is the system we need, but we need to stop it being twisted and exploited by those at the top.
Leaving the EU will leave us all at the mercy of the very worst elements of capitalism, at least in the next five years it will
-------------
Brilliantly said.
Has anyone in the Remain campaign actually spoken about the positives of being in the E.U. ...... Err No. After all that is what I want to hear, but no it uses scaremongering tactics about might or might not happen to the economy as if they are facts!!!! I know they are not, they are theories and opinions.
I work for an International Courier company and noticed one thing.... of all the big courier companies, not one of them have taken a side. This is due to that if the U.K leaves the E.U. Then all exporters will find that they will not have to pay VAT to export their goods. VAT on imports will most likely be replaced with Import duty instead which could be cheaper than the present VAT value. Even 'Airbus UK' know that being in or out won't make a blind bit of difference to their business. Most courier companies expect nothing major will change realistically.
Furthermore we will have an opportunity to directly tackle the first problem in 2017 when, if we stay in the EU, the UK will become president of the EU Council, and will set the agenda. We can finally implement the harmonisation of free trade of services, which is something that is far harder to break down trade barriers on than trade in goods, and an area which the UK is a specialist in.
--------------------
again.
Not sure why more hasn't been made of this, but in 2017 the UK will assume presidency of the EU and bring to the fore matters that matter to us.
comment by TUX (U5315)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
An interesting post.............
''Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea;
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.''
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shell?
comment by Januzaj's-no11-fan. (formally known as giggsy-no11-fan) (U2534)
posted 1 minute ago
Has anyone in the Remain campaign actually spoken about the positives of being in the E.U. ...... Err No. After all that is what I want to hear, but no it uses scaremongering tactics about might or might not happen to the economy as if they are facts!!!! I know they are not, they are theories and opinions.
I work for an International Courier company and noticed one thing.... of all the big courier companies, not one of them have taken a side. This is due to that if the U.K leaves the E.U. Then all exporters will find that they will not have to pay VAT to export their goods. VAT on imports will most likely be replaced with Import duty instead which could be cheaper than the present VAT value. Even 'Airbus UK' know that being in or out won't make a blind bit of difference to their business. Most courier companies expect nothing major will change realistically.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So are you saying that the leave campaign hasn't used scaremongering?
Are you telling me that this UKIP poster isn't scaremongering?
http://media.breitbart.com/media/2016/06/13445884_10209020304361282_1302515232_o-640x480.png
"Thomas Mair gave his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" when he appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court."
BBC
That's what aggressive lies about immigration can cause.
I am absolutely aware that the remain campaign used similar tactics but they don't produce propaganda which reduces human beings trying to enter this country to dirt.
Then all exporters will find that they will not have to pay VAT to export their goods. VAT on imports will most likely be replaced with Import duty instead which could be cheaper than the present VAT value
----------
i think you need to revisit VAT regulations and post again.
For example, if say a container of products come in from Malaysia to the UK. It is subject to:
a) import duty (amount depends on type of product)
b) VAT, which is payable as the container lands in the UK.
The reason why courier companies may not care is it means more money for them, as they will be able to charge yet another premium for filling in a form for you as part of the goods declaration.
Even 'Airbus UK' know that being in or out won't make a blind bit of difference to their business.
----------
Luckily you're not President of Airbus Industrie
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35958693
"Airbus Group's success in the UK is predicated on a highly competitive, integrated European business model," it says.
"Our position... is we firmly believe that it makes good economic sense to stay inside the EU which has helped make the company the global success story it is today. Apart from anything else, we simply don't know what 'out' looks like."
Out vote doesn't mean you're out
Page 5 of 12
6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10
posted on 18/6/16
comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 3 minutes ago
The drain on public services being down to immigration is the biggest myth being peddled.
The NHS for example is the biggest example of how vital immigration is.
Schools, housing etc are result if systematic govt failures and poor planning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it's not the only reason but not a myth. How can 300k extra people in the country every year not have an effect on public services when they'll all be using public services? They're already struggling at the moment so if we stay in the EU things will continue to get worse as they have done for the past 10 years.
About the NHS of course immigrants are vital. Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'we need 20 thousand nurses, or 10k doctors, let's bring in that amount. And bring in the best people from around the world.' Instead of letting in 300k mostly unskilled migrants every year just so a few of them can work in the NHS?
posted on 18/6/16
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 3 minutes ago
The drain on public services being down to immigration is the biggest myth being peddled.
The NHS for example is the biggest example of how vital immigration is.
Schools, housing etc are result if systematic govt failures and poor planning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it's not the only reason but not a myth. How can 300k extra people in the country every year not have an effect on public services when they'll all be using public services? They're already struggling at the moment so if we stay in the EU things will continue to get worse as they have done for the past 10 years.
About the NHS of course immigrants are vital. Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'we need 20 thousand nurses, or 10k doctors, let's bring in that amount. And bring in the best people from around the world.' Instead of letting in 300k mostly unskilled migrants every year just so a few of them can work in the NHS?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they are putting more into the country through taxes and through employment in public services.
Why aren't you asking the govt. what are they doing with this extra revenue.
They are the ones cutting services, not building quick enough, allowing land barons.
posted on 18/6/16
I always used to wonder how the Spanish used divide an conquer to take over the Americas, how can the people be so easily manipulated?
It seems very little as change and the naive fools are plenty, fighting the false enemy their real enemy has told them to fight.
posted on 18/6/16
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 3 minutes ago
The drain on public services being down to immigration is the biggest myth being peddled.
The NHS for example is the biggest example of how vital immigration is.
Schools, housing etc are result if systematic govt failures and poor planning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it's not the only reason but not a myth. How can 300k extra people in the country every year not have an effect on public services when they'll all be using public services? They're already struggling at the moment so if we stay in the EU things will continue to get worse as they have done for the past 10 years.
About the NHS of course immigrants are vital. Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'we need 20 thousand nurses, or 10k doctors, let's bring in that amount. And bring in the best people from around the world.' Instead of letting in 300k mostly unskilled migrants every year just so a few of them can work in the NHS?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes but the problem isn't immigration for people who work here, it's that:
(a) our economy is generating too many jobs for unskilled workers that don't pay very well
(b) the benefits from immigration are only going to companies who employ them and the Treasury, while UK workers only experience the costs on their public sector services
Both of those problems need to be addressed by our government, and will persist even if we leave the EU. If we leave we'll either have to accept freedom of movement because we want to keep access to the single market, or we'll have to pay huge tariffs if we want to have immigration control, which will make everything cost more, and significantly outweigh the benefits of reducing pressure on services.
Furthermore we will have an opportunity to directly tackle the first problem in 2017 when, if we stay in the EU, the UK will become president of the EU Council, and will set the agenda. We can finally implement the harmonisation of free trade of services, which is something that is far harder to break down trade barriers on than trade in goods, and an area which the UK is a specialist in.
If we can sell services to the rest of Europe we will create a lot of higher paying jobs, and start to tackle our large trade deficit. And as services are much less price sensitive we'll be able to charge higher prices and pay higher wages than we can in manufacturing.
Farage et al have linked immigration to this debate because they know people are very angry about it (in part because they themselves have made sure people blame immigration for their ills). The fact is leaving the EU won't give us control over immigration except at a very high price - and it isn't immigration that's the problem, it's that we see all the costs and none of the benefits, because the UK economic system is slanted in favour of the very wealthy.
posted on 18/6/16
comment by Aggers Right Elbow (U3402)
posted 2 hours, 18 minutes ago
It's no surprise that economists and bankers are encouraging us to stay in. By nature they like stability and the idea the may rake in less money in the short term is no doubt a terrifying prospect to them. Basically a lot of those commenting are too rich to see what is happening elsewhere in the country.
The imigration issue concerns me far more than money. 10 years ago I could walk down the street and hear people speaking English, it's now almost 50 50 with Eastern European language. I would like to see a points system adopted as Australia have, that way we can still allow people into our country who will contribute rather than drain our NHS and welfare state.
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You're so facking stupid it's unreal ARE.
posted on 18/6/16
comment by D4thincarnation (U2520)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 3 minutes ago
The drain on public services being down to immigration is the biggest myth being peddled.
The NHS for example is the biggest example of how vital immigration is.
Schools, housing etc are result if systematic govt failures and poor planning.
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it's not the only reason but not a myth. How can 300k extra people in the country every year not have an effect on public services when they'll all be using public services? They're already struggling at the moment so if we stay in the EU things will continue to get worse as they have done for the past 10 years.
About the NHS of course immigrants are vital. Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'we need 20 thousand nurses, or 10k doctors, let's bring in that amount. And bring in the best people from around the world.' Instead of letting in 300k mostly unskilled migrants every year just so a few of them can work in the NHS?
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Because they are putting more into the country through taxes and through employment in public services.
Why aren't you asking the govt. what are they doing with this extra revenue.
They are the ones cutting services, not building quick enough, allowing land barons.
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the net contribution EU migrants make is a small amount and not going to make much of a difference to our economy. That study was also comparing tax contributions vs state benefits they receive but probably didn't count the cost of them going to school, hospital or other freebies. what I said before though the negative impacts of this level of immigration outweighs any small economic contribution.
posted on 18/6/16
The rich end tories (and big business) and middle class left wing like immigration.
It's the middle class right wing and the working class that don't like it, which together make up a lot of the populace and why leave is doing so well.
Personally, I've been irritated by Corbyns approach so far in terms of not selling remain to what should be the core demographic of his party.
posted on 18/6/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 18/6/16
comment by D4thincarnation (U2520)
posted 32 minutes ago
If you want to hand over full power to the posh tory boys to abuse the working class even more without restriction. Then vote leave. We will have these guys run the country with very little separation of powers, not even an effective 2nd house, and with the first past the post system, many of your views will be unrepresentative.
The 1% in full control of the 99% not answerable to anyone.
See you public services dwindle even more, the divide between rich and poor become greater and generally become a more hateful and xenophobic society where many industries and growth will crumble, Vote leave, you mugs.
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If they do anything close to that they will lose the next election so it will never happen. There's only so much they can do while still pulling the wool over people's eyes. The vast majority of Tory voters don't even want these kind of things to happen so it won't.
But while we've been in the EU especially over the last 10 years, public services are already dwindling, the gap between rich and poor is bigger than ever and society is more xenophobic and racist... that should not be an argument for staying in
posted on 18/6/16
comment by thebluebellsareblue (U9292)
posted 1 hour, 55 minutes ago
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 39 seconds ago
Lol at the leftwingers pretending to care for the working class, but as soon as they vote in their interest they're all inbr ed Jeremy Kyle guests.
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This is such a valid point.
Labour voters thinking for themselves become racist bigots, according to some leftist politico's.
Suddenly, decent working class folk are Jeremy Kyle plebs, if they dare think outside the socialist or ultrapc liberal box.
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For the 500th time on these threads, the polls clearly show Labour voters overwhelmingly support a vote to Remain.
Conservative and UKIP supporters will take us out of the EU, if anyone.
If you like I can post the link again, but you really should give up on this argument BB; it's just not true.
posted on 18/6/16
comment by Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by 8bit (U2653)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Redd Foxx (U19849)
posted 3 minutes ago
The drain on public services being down to immigration is the biggest myth being peddled.
The NHS for example is the biggest example of how vital immigration is.
Schools, housing etc are result if systematic govt failures and poor planning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
it's not the only reason but not a myth. How can 300k extra people in the country every year not have an effect on public services when they'll all be using public services? They're already struggling at the moment so if we stay in the EU things will continue to get worse as they have done for the past 10 years.
About the NHS of course immigrants are vital. Wouldn't it make more sense to say 'we need 20 thousand nurses, or 10k doctors, let's bring in that amount. And bring in the best people from around the world.' Instead of letting in 300k mostly unskilled migrants every year just so a few of them can work in the NHS?
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Yes but the problem isn't immigration for people who work here, it's that:
(a) our economy is generating too many jobs for unskilled workers that don't pay very well
(b) the benefits from immigration are only going to companies who employ them and the Treasury, while UK workers only experience the costs on their public sector services
Both of those problems need to be addressed by our government, and will persist even if we leave the EU. If we leave we'll either have to accept freedom of movement because we want to keep access to the single market, or we'll have to pay huge tariffs if we want to have immigration control, which will make everything cost more, and significantly outweigh the benefits of reducing pressure on services.
Furthermore we will have an opportunity to directly tackle the first problem in 2017 when, if we stay in the EU, the UK will become president of the EU Council, and will set the agenda. We can finally implement the harmonisation of free trade of services, which is something that is far harder to break down trade barriers on than trade in goods, and an area which the UK is a specialist in.
If we can sell services to the rest of Europe we will create a lot of higher paying jobs, and start to tackle our large trade deficit. And as services are much less price sensitive we'll be able to charge higher prices and pay higher wages than we can in manufacturing.
Farage et al have linked immigration to this debate because they know people are very angry about it (in part because they themselves have made sure people blame immigration for their ills). The fact is leaving the EU won't give us control over immigration except at a very high price - and it isn't immigration that's the problem, it's that we see all the costs and none of the benefits, because the UK economic system is slanted in favour of the very wealthy.
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The thing is people say we need to stay in the EU to solve these problems, but we've been in the EU for around 50 years so why haven't they tried to solve these problems already?
posted on 18/6/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 18/6/16
actually all the time we are in the EU these problems are continuously getting worse, yet remain camp says we need to stay in and reform to improve these issues. I've come to the conclusion that it's all BS.
posted on 18/6/16
comment by 8bit (U2653)
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the net contribution EU migrants make is a small amount and not going to make much of a difference to our economy. That study was also comparing tax contributions vs state benefits they receive but probably didn't count the cost of them going to school, hospital or other freebies. what I said before though the negative impacts of this level of immigration outweighs any small economic contribution.
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A net contribution is more money in than they take out, including all services. The issues is the govt are not taking that money and putting it into the infrastructure.
Our biggest drain on welfare comes from pensioners, then the British public
posted on 18/6/16
This was posted by Brian Eno-
Until recently I'd assumed there was no chance we'd vote to leave. However, recent polls seem to be showing 'Leave' and 'Remain' are neck and neck. Some polls even show 'Leave' leading.
You may have made up your mind and plan to vote (in which case ignore this letter), but if, like me, you've been complacent about the issue, it might be time to rethink. What the 'Leaves' have on their side is their unquenchable enthusiasm for a 'Great' Britain that they think we can revive - and several powerful media outlets to propagandise the idea. The Leavers know they can count on their demographic - primarily older people - to get out and vote, whereas the 'Remain' demographic is less reliable (and more complacent). And the Leavers have LOTS of money: seems like a lot of very wealthy people are anxious to get out of the EU.
I wonder why? Is it because many of the constraints on how badly you're allowed to treat workers have been put in place by the EU? Is it because the EU has insisted on environmental legislation which hampers the freedom-to-pollute of corporations and governments? Is it because the EU has established an international criminal court where all those people to whom we sell weapons might be called to account? Is it because the EU has tried to come up with some sort of humane response to immigration other than barbed wire and Trumpian walls?
I have a lot of misgivings about the way the EU is run, but they don't make me want to ditch the whole idea. I feel the EU is one of the only restraints on the kind of neo-liberal market fundamentalism that has seen inequality rising throughout the world. I feel that it has been a net force for good in promoting enlightened social and environmental agendas. It could and should be doing a better job at all these things, but to do any job at all it needs our support.
The only good outcome of this referendum is that it might remind us what the original mission of the EU was, and might motivate us to actually make it happen.
So...please vote. And please ask your friends to do the same.
- Brian
posted on 18/6/16
Why is everybody who is against immigration not showing the passion when Starbucks etc neglect to pay billions in tax?
I just don't get it.
You'ed make enemies out of people who are trying to come here for a a better life but let the corporate vampires take as much as they like.
The benefit cheats in the country are insignificant in number and the majority of benefits being dished out are to people who need it, like the elderly and disabled.
posted on 18/6/16
comment by VoteLeaveEU- TakeBackOurCountry (U5547)
posted 2 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Spaireland (U1250)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by Ttliv87 (U11882)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Spaireland (U1250)
posted 1 minute ago
Who is going to do all those jobs when the immigrants wont come to the UK any longer? Jobs as in flipping burgers in McD, BK, chucking chicking in a bowl at KFC, waiting tables, collecting garbage. I see the same in Ireland, Irish wont take the dirty jobs the immigrants are willing to fill. I havent seen much Irish doing these jobs, in fact they mostly are all immigrants and the Irish are happy to collect the dole or sponge of mum
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"You guys are racist, fascist, homophobic, sexist, misogynist, homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic, antisemitic bigots!"
"All Irish people are dole spongers"
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Thats not what it says though, and it is first hand experience. Havent been served by a boy or girl with a thick Dub accent for ages.
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So your a Dubliner mate and wont be voting in the ref?
I'm in Dublin next weekend hopefully nursing a celebratory hangover!!
Staying in Ballsbridge love it..........
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I am an immigrant living in Ireland
posted on 18/6/16
But please think very, very carefully about whether you really think people who come here to live and work and for the most part abide by our rules are the problem, or whether it's actually more likely to be the people in power. People who benefit from having immigration but give nothing back, and then blame the EU and immigrants and anyone they can for the country's problems instead of looking in the mirror. Who put their companies offshore to pay less tax. Who would sell the grandparents for a chance to run the country for five more years...
The problem is not immigration and it's not the EU where, for the most part, we largely cooperate with other countries to improve our economies, with lower air fares and lower mobile charges, and all those other boring things that individually don't amount to much, but soon add up to quite a lot.
It's the inequality at the top of our society, where vested interests are vying to get the power to slant the playing field even more in their favour which is the problem.
I saw a quote, and I can't remember where it's from, but essentially it says that things have started going wrong for capitalism ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Because instead of having to prove that capitalism was the best system against the Russians, all of a sudden the pressure was off. And ever since those with the most capital have not had to be responsible and have started taking ever larger slices of the pie. And I'd subscribe to that - we had a good model of an equitable capitalism but once we knew it was the best model we stopped trying to make it better, and let the greed of those at the top undermine it. I am not a weird leftie that thinks some kind of socialism would fix that, I still think capitalism is the system we need, but we need to stop it being twisted and exploited by those at the top.
Leaving the EU will leave us all at the mercy of the very worst elements of capitalism, at least in the next five years it will
-------------
Brilliantly said.
posted on 18/6/16
Has anyone in the Remain campaign actually spoken about the positives of being in the E.U. ...... Err No. After all that is what I want to hear, but no it uses scaremongering tactics about might or might not happen to the economy as if they are facts!!!! I know they are not, they are theories and opinions.
I work for an International Courier company and noticed one thing.... of all the big courier companies, not one of them have taken a side. This is due to that if the U.K leaves the E.U. Then all exporters will find that they will not have to pay VAT to export their goods. VAT on imports will most likely be replaced with Import duty instead which could be cheaper than the present VAT value. Even 'Airbus UK' know that being in or out won't make a blind bit of difference to their business. Most courier companies expect nothing major will change realistically.
posted on 18/6/16
Who's 1 starring facts?
posted on 18/6/16
Furthermore we will have an opportunity to directly tackle the first problem in 2017 when, if we stay in the EU, the UK will become president of the EU Council, and will set the agenda. We can finally implement the harmonisation of free trade of services, which is something that is far harder to break down trade barriers on than trade in goods, and an area which the UK is a specialist in.
--------------------
again.
Not sure why more hasn't been made of this, but in 2017 the UK will assume presidency of the EU and bring to the fore matters that matter to us.
posted on 18/6/16
comment by TUX (U5315)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
An interesting post.............
''Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea;
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.''
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Shell?
posted on 18/6/16
comment by Januzaj's-no11-fan. (formally known as giggsy-no11-fan) (U2534)
posted 1 minute ago
Has anyone in the Remain campaign actually spoken about the positives of being in the E.U. ...... Err No. After all that is what I want to hear, but no it uses scaremongering tactics about might or might not happen to the economy as if they are facts!!!! I know they are not, they are theories and opinions.
I work for an International Courier company and noticed one thing.... of all the big courier companies, not one of them have taken a side. This is due to that if the U.K leaves the E.U. Then all exporters will find that they will not have to pay VAT to export their goods. VAT on imports will most likely be replaced with Import duty instead which could be cheaper than the present VAT value. Even 'Airbus UK' know that being in or out won't make a blind bit of difference to their business. Most courier companies expect nothing major will change realistically.
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So are you saying that the leave campaign hasn't used scaremongering?
Are you telling me that this UKIP poster isn't scaremongering?
http://media.breitbart.com/media/2016/06/13445884_10209020304361282_1302515232_o-640x480.png
"Thomas Mair gave his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" when he appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court."
BBC
That's what aggressive lies about immigration can cause.
I am absolutely aware that the remain campaign used similar tactics but they don't produce propaganda which reduces human beings trying to enter this country to dirt.
posted on 18/6/16
Then all exporters will find that they will not have to pay VAT to export their goods. VAT on imports will most likely be replaced with Import duty instead which could be cheaper than the present VAT value
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i think you need to revisit VAT regulations and post again.
For example, if say a container of products come in from Malaysia to the UK. It is subject to:
a) import duty (amount depends on type of product)
b) VAT, which is payable as the container lands in the UK.
The reason why courier companies may not care is it means more money for them, as they will be able to charge yet another premium for filling in a form for you as part of the goods declaration.
posted on 18/6/16
Even 'Airbus UK' know that being in or out won't make a blind bit of difference to their business.
----------
Luckily you're not President of Airbus Industrie
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35958693
"Airbus Group's success in the UK is predicated on a highly competitive, integrated European business model," it says.
"Our position... is we firmly believe that it makes good economic sense to stay inside the EU which has helped make the company the global success story it is today. Apart from anything else, we simply don't know what 'out' looks like."
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