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If Sam goes, is the only option Bruce?

Page 4 of 5

posted on 27/9/16

May aswell be Mr Bean, he can't do any worse than the last 5 or so managers

comment by Shugs (U14253)

posted on 27/9/16

comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 6 minutes ago

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I don't think any of that would pass now that social media is so much bigger and more prevalent..

We are talking about the FA who sacked huddle for saying disabled people were suffering karma, and you think it's going to be no issue to them that he mocked a speech impediment?
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There was a lot more to Hoddle getting the boot than the karma with disabled people thing... that just gave the FA a nice easy trigger.

He had written a book about the world cup and had alienated most of the playing staff... had a poor start to the campaign... all worked out nicely

different level from saying Woy though, lets be honest

posted on 27/9/16

comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 2 minutes ago
His Bolton side were quality.

Some Arsenal and Liverpool fans do not like him because Rafa and Arsene cried when Bolton did not roll over for them
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Quite the opposite

We spanked Bolton and him and his mate fergie decided to slander Benitez across the press for hand signals he made to the Liverpool players following the second goal in the biggest case of sore loser you have ever seen.

Aside from that I don't rate allardyce and don't think he will be a good manager for England because I don't believe he is Tactically astute. He plays the %ages, he aims to convert a certain number of set prices, certain numbers of headers, tackles, possession, speed over 50m vs their opposite number which also shows he is rigid in formations and tactics.

As England manager given your lack of time with players instead of foisting a play style and ethos on them you need to pick players based on their club performances and work out a plays type based on it.

Players used to possession football will suck at kick and rush, players used to kick and rush will struggle with possession, you need to fit together players with a similar play style and just get them to gel as a team performing as they do best for their clubs.

I don't think Sam is intelligent enough for it. Far more likely like all other recent England managers he's just going to pick the biggest reputation 18 he can see and try to recoach their club playstyle in two weeks.

It won't work, it's never worked and it never will. Look at all the best International teams, large parts of them played together at the club level, or at clubs with a similar playstyle to each other and the national team.

Arsenal, Liverpool, city and spurs players are not going to suit Sam's butt to the wall, nick a free kick style. But I bet he still picks them and I bet he still tries to get them to play an unfamiliar style, and I bet it still looks Tactically inept.

Recent German team, the whole league plays a similar style to achieve that goal.

The Spanish team, made up purely of real and barca (mainly barca) players playing a familiar style.

Holland, total football, in the style of their league.

We as a league have very varied tactics and styles, Sam isn't astute enough to fit to the players so he probably will need to pick players that fit instead.

posted on 27/9/16

I would love Venables to take it if Sam gets the Spanish.

It is an old man's role really, not exactly graft.

posted on 27/9/16

comment by redmisty (U7556)
posted 55 seconds ago
England aren't so chit to have left competitions at they stages they have recently.
____________

How is that Sam's fault? He has only been in charge for one match...

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Who said it was? I just don't think he can improve on Roy.

comment by Shugs (U14253)

posted on 27/9/16

comment by Insert random username (U10647)

posted 1 minute ago

-----------------------------------------------------------

snip... too long

-----------------------------------------

on the playing percentages bit... if you're at a club with limited resources... surely that's a decent approach.

He can only work with what he can work with?

I think he went a bit stale with West Ham and could be blamed from not kicking on... but you don't know what he's capable of with better players when he's never had the chance to work with them.

Admittedly... you could say that about a lot of managers too

posted on 27/9/16

comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 2 minutes ago
His Bolton side were quality.

Some Arsenal and Liverpool fans do not like him because Rafa and Arsene cried when Bolton did not roll over for them
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Quite the opposite

We spanked Bolton and him and his mate fergie decided to slander Benitez across the press for hand signals he made to the Liverpool players following the second goal in the biggest case of sore loser you have ever seen.

Aside from that I don't rate allardyce and don't think he will be a good manager for England because I don't believe he is Tactically astute. He plays the %ages, he aims to convert a certain number of set prices, certain numbers of headers, tackles, possession, speed over 50m vs their opposite number which also shows he is rigid in formations and tactics.

As England manager given your lack of time with players instead of foisting a play style and ethos on them you need to pick players based on their club performances and work out a plays type based on it.

Players used to possession football will suck at kick and rush, players used to kick and rush will struggle with possession, you need to fit together players with a similar play style and just get them to gel as a team performing as they do best for their clubs.

I don't think Sam is intelligent enough for it. Far more likely like all other recent England managers he's just going to pick the biggest reputation 18 he can see and try to recoach their club playstyle in two weeks.

It won't work, it's never worked and it never will. Look at all the best International teams, large parts of them played together at the club level, or at clubs with a similar playstyle to each other and the national team.

Arsenal, Liverpool, city and spurs players are not going to suit Sam's butt to the wall, nick a free kick style. But I bet he still picks them and I bet he still tries to get them to play an unfamiliar style, and I bet it still looks Tactically inept.

Recent German team, the whole league plays a similar style to achieve that goal.

The Spanish team, made up purely of real and barca (mainly barca) players playing a familiar style.

Holland, total football, in the style of their league.

We as a league have very varied tactics and styles, Sam isn't astute enough to fit to the players so he probably will need to pick players that fit instead.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Big Sam did not have a team of cloggers at Bolton. He married a variety of top international talent with some 'robust, players in to a cohesive, hardworking unit. They were not silky smooth, no, and it would not be what Djorkaeff, Okocha, Stelios, Speed, Campo et al were used to, but he got it to work.

That Bolton side were horrible to play against, they had bite but also players to kill you. No surprise they got good results against most top sides. So much sour grapes about it back then

comment by Shugs (U14253)

posted on 27/9/16

comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 5 minutes ago
I would love Venables to take it if Sam gets the Spanish.

It is an old man's role really, not exactly graft.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

if they bin Sam over a dodgy business deal... Venables is hardly the man to turn to

Hasn't worked in nearly 15 years... and the last decent spell he had was Euro 96... his England record overall is actually pretty poor

posted on 27/9/16

Who said it was? I just don't think he can improve on Roy.
_________________

fair enough - nor do I. Never said otherwise.

I simply said that it is unrealistic to expect any England manager to win a trophy with the current squad. Are you having difficulty understanding this point or do you have some other issue you'd like to debate?

I don't get what you point/problem is with what I originally wrote. Do you?

posted on 27/9/16

Don't see the problem in what Sam said here. Nothing wrong with making a bit of money on the side. I'm all for it.

posted on 27/9/16

comment by Shugs (U14253)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Insert random username (U10647)

posted 1 minute ago

-----------------------------------------------------------

snip... too long

-----------------------------------------

on the playing percentages bit... if you're at a club with limited resources... surely that's a decent approach.

He can only work with what he can work with?

I think he went a bit stale with West Ham and could be blamed from not kicking on... but you don't know what he's capable of with better players when he's never had the chance to work with them.

Admittedly... you could say that about a lot of managers too

----------------------------------------------------------------------
A fair point about what he could do with better players.

I had this conversation with a fellow pool fan on the train thread a few weeks back, he posted an article based on Sam's time at Bolton which basically was Sam talking about how he plays the %ages because they give him the best "chance" to win a game, I. E. If you don't conceeded you can't lose.

That's his whole mentality I can appreciate his meticulous set peice work, I can't appreciate a mentality of not loosing games, rather than trying to win games, and frankly it's not what most top English players will be used to.

That's a shift change in attitudes and tactics in a very short time.

posted on 27/9/16

comment by Shugs (U14253)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 5 minutes ago
I would love Venables to take it if Sam gets the Spanish.

It is an old man's role really, not exactly graft.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

if they bin Sam over a dodgy business deal... Venables is hardly the man to turn to

Hasn't worked in nearly 15 years... and the last decent spell he had was Euro 96... his England record overall is actually pretty poor
----------------------------------------------------------------------

England were a shambles when he took over to be fair, and he had no competitive football pre Euro 96.

Results were not fantastic during the tournament either, but I think a lot of international football is motivation once at a tournament. I would rather have a charismatic old man such as Tel over a dullard such as Bruce

posted on 27/9/16

comment by redmisty (U7556)
posted 7 minutes ago
Who said it was? I just don't think he can improve on Roy.
_________________

fair enough - nor do I. Never said otherwise.

I simply said that it is unrealistic to expect any England manager to win a trophy with the current squad. Are you having difficulty understanding this point or do you have some other issue you'd like to debate?

I don't get what you point/problem is with what I originally wrote. Do you?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
What have I misunderstood from this (which was where we last sparred):

"England are chit, with or without Allardyce. You need to revise your expectations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England aren't so chit to have left competitions at they stages they have recently."

posted on 27/9/16

comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 8 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Big Sam did not have a team of cloggers at Bolton. He married a variety of top international talent with some 'robust, players in to a cohesive, hardworking unit. They were not silky smooth, no, and it would not be what Djorkaeff, Okocha, Stelios, Speed, Campo et al were used to, but he got it to work.

That Bolton side were horrible to play against, they had bite but also players to kill you. No surprise they got good results against most top sides. So much sour grapes about it back then

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The sour grapes then, as last season and as per England fans not wanting him in post is the same

He sets his teams up to STOP play.

It infuriates other managers, it infuriates fans of both teams (West ham fans were never endeared to him, nor were newcastles) but he sees it as the best way to win a game.

A few fast players getting up and down the pitch to provide a 4-4-2 in defence and a 4-2-4 in attack, generally one striker with three getting around him for knock downs and three players to get in the box should a winger ping in a cross..

It was effective at relegation battles teams, when he used it at Bolton he was at the cutting edge of statistical analysis and sports science, the world has caught up, it's why Jose has Stagnated in exactly the same time frame.

Balls to the wall defending is not a great advert for our league, Roy was barely worse, similar tactics but stuck in ways even older than Sam.

Few managers have managed to reinvent themselves multiple times as football has changed. Sam is a relic in footballing terms of a time when you could stop play to challenge a then big 4!

posted on 27/9/16

comment by Insert random username (U10647)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by HRH King Ledley (U20095)
posted 8 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Big Sam did not have a team of cloggers at Bolton. He married a variety of top international talent with some 'robust, players in to a cohesive, hardworking unit. They were not silky smooth, no, and it would not be what Djorkaeff, Okocha, Stelios, Speed, Campo et al were used to, but he got it to work.

That Bolton side were horrible to play against, they had bite but also players to kill you. No surprise they got good results against most top sides. So much sour grapes about it back then

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The sour grapes then, as last season and as per England fans not wanting him in post is the same

He sets his teams up to STOP play.

It infuriates other managers, it infuriates fans of both teams (West ham fans were never endeared to him, nor were newcastles) but he sees it as the best way to win a game.

A few fast players getting up and down the pitch to provide a 4-4-2 in defence and a 4-2-4 in attack, generally one striker with three getting around him for knock downs and three players to get in the box should a winger ping in a cross..

It was effective at relegation battles teams, when he used it at Bolton he was at the cutting edge of statistical analysis and sports science, the world has caught up, it's why Jose has Stagnated in exactly the same time frame.

Balls to the wall defending is not a great advert for our league, Roy was barely worse, similar tactics but stuck in ways even older than Sam.

Few managers have managed to reinvent themselves multiple times as football has changed. Sam is a relic in footballing terms of a time when you could stop play to challenge a then big 4!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You know Leicester won the league last season playing a similar way, right?

posted on 27/9/16

Yes, they did, but how terrible was the league last season in terms of points? Not to mention their players are already saying the same tactics won't work this season.

If you think it's an acceptable playstyle for England and Sam takes players used to the style to achieve results then that's great.

I personally think England's better players are more suited to fluid play and would prefer a Tactically astute manager to fit them together.

posted on 27/9/16

What have I misunderstood from this (which was where we last sparred):

"England are chit, with or without Allardyce. You need to revise your expectations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
England aren't so chit to have left competitions at they stages they have recently."
_________________

I responded directly to the comment that Sam was the wrong man and it would be preferable to have a manager who might actually win something.

I stated that England are chit and will not win anything anyway. I.e. the expectation of England winning a trophy is too high and therefore those expectations need to be revised.

That's when you stepped in with the comment above. I am struggling to understand it's relevance to anything I wrote....

Hope that helps.


comment by Superb (U6486)

posted on 27/9/16

If Sam goes, is the only option Bruce?

----------------------------------------------

In a nutshell yes.

comment by SB&S (U17757)

posted on 27/9/16

Bruce would be brilliant. Picture of him giving Hart some much needed advice.
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/entertainer-and-tv-presenter-bruce-forsyth-is-photographed-for-the-picture-id462259428

posted on 27/9/16

As an outsider looking in, the current debacle over big Sam's comments begs answers to the flowing questions.

Who approached who with regard to the deal? Was it the undercover press team? If so, isn't this a case of entrapment?

If it went the other way, namely Sam and/or his representative making approaches to other parties with a view to doing a deal, then he's effectively dead in the water.

JimmyThe
Red

posted on 27/9/16

He's gone.

Probably a good thing as he was clearly out of his depth bigly.

posted on 27/9/16

Any body who is anybody
Will soon walk through that door
At Fat Sam's Grand Slam Speakeasy
Always able to find you a table
There's room for just one more
At Fat Sam's Grand Slam Speakeasy
Once you get here, feel the good cheer
Like they always say in the poem
Fat Sam's ain't humble
But it's your home sweet home
Plans are made here, games are played here
I could write me a book
Each night astounds you
Rumours are abuzzing
Stories by the dozen
Look around you, cousin
At the news were making here
Anybody who is anybody
Will soon walk through that door
At Fat Sam's Grand Slam Speakeasy

comment by Superb (U6486)

posted on 28/9/16

Bruce has just heard he's got the England job https://vine.co/v/OMJrbXL0QxW

posted on 28/9/16

comment by Superb (U6486)
posted 9 minutes ago
Bruce has just heard he's got the England job https://vine.co/v/OMJrbXL0QxW
----------------------------------------------------------------------

posted on 28/9/16

Yes I think and 100

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