Mata in CM is the worst idea I've ever heard.
Also what is this obsession with shoehorning players into positions? Mata is a great number 10 leave him there.
I cant see any reason to play Mata deeper when Herrera can make things happen in that area of the field and is better defensively. Leave Mata further up where he is most effective.
How is it any worse from a defensive standpoint?
I'd never want it to happen unless we started playing with a DM to compensate.
In the Leicester and Stoke games, it looked to me as if we were playing with Herrera as the dm and Pogba and Mata as the two in front.
Mata is a lot more silkier and better with the ball than Herrera, although the former is better without it.
Elvis, if we were to play a 4-3-3, playing Mata further forward would surely mean him having to play as one of the forward three, areas where we are crying out for pace to supplement Zlatan?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
There is no logical reason, not one, to play Mata as a deep midfielder.
Take the needle out of your arm OP.
comment by Marlo Stanfield. (U7553)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
How is it any worse from a defensive standpoint?
I'd never want it to happen unless we started playing with a DM to compensate.
In the Leicester and Stoke games, it looked to me as if we were playing with Herrera as the dm and Pogba and Mata as the two in front.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's exactly what we did. It was a 4-3-3/4-1-2-3 with Herrera in the covering role and Mata sat in a deep inside right position alongside Pogba. We've looked much, much more fluid going forward with this setup.
The big question for me is does Herrera have the ability and is he ready to do the job when we come up against top notch opposition? We know he's technically able with the ball and his short distribution is generally quick and consistent. But does he have the positional awareness and discipline required of the role?
In part, he answered that when he came on against City, completely nullifying their most dangerous player instantly. If he can keep putting in performances like that, I'll keep faith in the system.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Stick with Herrera. Quality player.
RB
CB
CB
LB
Mkhit
Mata
Rooney
Pogba
Young
Ibra
anything other than that and united will be in serious trouble.
if herrera and/or lingaard feature, united will be humiliated
comment by rossobianchi - Rock the Pogbah (U17054)
posted 10 hours, 20 minutes ago
In part, he answered that when he came on against City, completely nullifying their most dangerous player instantly. If he can keep putting in performances like that, I'll keep faith in the system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He left some huge gaps for City though, they failed to take advantage... there were several times when our defenders were racing a 3 v 4 or 3 v 3. We were chasing the game though, so risks such risks were needed.
Against Leicester though his discipline and positioning were really good... same against Stoke.
I think he an make the role his own, over time, but for now.... I would put MS or Carrick in for the big games.
For some reason Carrick isn't getting a look in so theres no point in even including him
I would put MS or Carrick in for the big games.'
Neither are match fit thought and both would be completely murdered by Liverpool's pace of brought in tonight.
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin - where my muthaf'king dominoes at (U2958)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by rossobianchi - Rock the Pogbah (U17054)
posted 10 hours, 20 minutes ago
In part, he answered that when he came on against City, completely nullifying their most dangerous player instantly. If he can keep putting in performances like that, I'll keep faith in the system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He left some huge gaps for City though, they failed to take advantage... there were several times when our defenders were racing a 3 v 4 or 3 v 3. We were chasing the game though, so risks such risks were needed.
Against Leicester though his discipline and positioning were really good... same against Stoke.
I think he an make the role his own, over time, but for now.... I would put MS or Carrick in for the big games.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He was asked to do a very specific job against City, and did it very well IMO.
It wasn't quite the same role as he's taken up in our last two PL games, which has carried a wider remit of providing a broader defensive shield, but I wonder if it was enough for Jose to think he can do a job in that area of the pitch.
Regardless, as you say, he did well in the Leicester and Stoke games, and, if Jose sticks with the 4-3-3, deserves to keep his spot for now for me.
I'd be going with this for tonight:
------------------DDG
Tony V---Bailly---Smalling---Blind
----------------Herrera
---------Mata----------Pogba
Lingard--------Ibra--------Rashford
Looks good to me. I missed the Stoke game, how was Martial? Would it be worth starting him over Rashford after his goal?
He was better.
I'm all for working to rebuild his confidence and play him back into form, but firstly, it's one of the biggest games of the season tonight and we have to put our very best side out (on form and based on what Jose believes will best work tactically of course) and secondly, I think it's important we try to keep the current momentum up.
A win tonight would be a real sign of serious progress, but a draw and a credible performance if we can't manage the three points might also prove important in time.
Herrera sets the tempo in our midfield.
Blind, Herrera and Pogba is the three that I'd like to see.
But he is able to set the tempo playing a deeper role, if you play that 3 then you would need Blind to do so. Not that that can't happen but it then changes Herrera's role.
When he played against us for Bilbao he was sitting quite deep too and dictating play, but what he had that really helped was a physically imposing DM in Martinez who offered plenty of energy and offered plenty of dirty work, problem is our squad doesn't really have that player unless you count Fellaini who most think is better further forward.
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 12 minutes ago
But he is able to set the tempo playing a deeper role, if you play that 3 then you would need Blind to do so. Not that that can't happen but it then changes Herrera's role.
When he played against us for Bilbao he was sitting quite deep too and dictating play, but what he had that really helped was a physically imposing DM in Martinez who offered plenty of energy and offered plenty of dirty work, problem is our squad doesn't really have that player unless you count Fellaini who most think is better further forward.
---------------------
I think that TFM could play that role for us in the future but it is probably too soon for him right now. I'd really like to see him start a few games as DM this season though.
Based on what though? According to virtually all people who watch the U21s he's clearly shown his best in defence. There seems to be this idea that he is a midfielder based on very little?
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 12 minutes ago
But he is able to set the tempo playing a deeper role, if you play that 3 then you would need Blind to do so. Not that that can't happen but it then changes Herrera's role.
When he played against us for Bilbao he was sitting quite deep too and dictating play, but what he had that really helped was a physically imposing DM in Martinez who offered plenty of energy and offered plenty of dirty work, problem is our squad doesn't really have that player unless you count Fellaini who most think is better further forward.
---------------------
I think that TFM could play that role for us in the future but it is probably too soon for him right now. I'd really like to see him start a few games as DM this season though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If, and it's a big if, we can get Herrera working as a regista as the deepest player in a midfield three, without the need for a more traditional physically commanding defensive midfielder, that'd be much preferable solution for me.
Given that with the calibre of the players that we have we should be commanding possession in most games, why 'waste' a position on a player selected for their defensive attributes over their contribution to creative football?
It also frees Pogba to stay a little further up the pitch having a better passer of the ball in the role, rather than him having to fetch the ball all the time.
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 8 minutes ago
Based on what though? According to virtually all people who watch the U21s he's clearly shown his best in defence. There seems to be this idea that he is a midfielder based on very little?
---------------------------------------
He probably has played his best in defence, but that is where he has mostly played for the U21s. He plays in midfield for his country and has done well there. But I base my opinion on what I have seen of him. He looks to read the game pretty well for someone his age and is comfortable on the ball in tight situations. Throw in his physical attributes and I see no reason why he shouldn't be given a chance in DM. Its not like the position is a new one to him and he could add the physical presence and ability to pressure on the ball that we have lacked for some time.
Based on what though? According to virtually all people who watch the U21s he's clearly shown his best in defence. There seems to be this idea that he is a midfielder based on very little?
--------------------------------------------------
He hasn't 'clearly' shown his best work in defence. He's shown himself to be an exceptionally versatile player at U21 level, having had one or two stand out games in defence, with a decent number of very good performances in midfield also.
He's powerful, excellent at reading danger, covers a lot of ground and shows good acceleration when it comes to winning the ball back and breaking forward and he was gradually becoming more of an attacking threat and making better use of the ball but he can still improve in both areas.
There is certainly enough there to warrant giving him a chance in midfield at a higher level.
This idea that he's shown very little in midfield needs knocked in the head.
comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 56 minutes ago
Based on what though? According to virtually all people who watch the U21s he's clearly shown his best in defence. There seems to be this idea that he is a midfielder based on very little?
--------------------------------------------------
He hasn't 'clearly' shown his best work in defence. He's shown himself to be an exceptionally versatile player at U21 level, having had one or two stand out games in defence, with a decent number of very good performances in midfield also.
He's powerful, excellent at reading danger, covers a lot of ground and shows good acceleration when it comes to winning the ball back and breaking forward and he was gradually becoming more of an attacking threat and making better use of the ball but he can still improve in both areas.
There is certainly enough there to warrant giving him a chance in midfield at a higher level.
This idea that he's shown very little in midfield needs knocked in the head.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's more of an idea that his very best performances have been at fullback and centreback.
He clearly has attributes that would suggest he could become a very proficient defensive midfielder, but I don't quite understand people's desire to see him blooded there, rather than in the back line. It's almost as if people see the DM position as somehow more important.
What are your thoughts on moving forward with a regista in a 4-3-3, rather than a more physical, destructive defensive mid TRS? Do you like Herrera in there?
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Mata in CM.
Page 1 of 2
posted on 16/10/16
Mata in CM is the worst idea I've ever heard.
Also what is this obsession with shoehorning players into positions? Mata is a great number 10 leave him there.
posted on 16/10/16
I cant see any reason to play Mata deeper when Herrera can make things happen in that area of the field and is better defensively. Leave Mata further up where he is most effective.
posted on 16/10/16
How is it any worse from a defensive standpoint?
I'd never want it to happen unless we started playing with a DM to compensate.
In the Leicester and Stoke games, it looked to me as if we were playing with Herrera as the dm and Pogba and Mata as the two in front.
posted on 16/10/16
Mata is a lot more silkier and better with the ball than Herrera, although the former is better without it.
Elvis, if we were to play a 4-3-3, playing Mata further forward would surely mean him having to play as one of the forward three, areas where we are crying out for pace to supplement Zlatan?
posted on 16/10/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 16/10/16
There is no logical reason, not one, to play Mata as a deep midfielder.
Take the needle out of your arm OP.
posted on 16/10/16
comment by Marlo Stanfield. (U7553)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
How is it any worse from a defensive standpoint?
I'd never want it to happen unless we started playing with a DM to compensate.
In the Leicester and Stoke games, it looked to me as if we were playing with Herrera as the dm and Pogba and Mata as the two in front.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's exactly what we did. It was a 4-3-3/4-1-2-3 with Herrera in the covering role and Mata sat in a deep inside right position alongside Pogba. We've looked much, much more fluid going forward with this setup.
The big question for me is does Herrera have the ability and is he ready to do the job when we come up against top notch opposition? We know he's technically able with the ball and his short distribution is generally quick and consistent. But does he have the positional awareness and discipline required of the role?
In part, he answered that when he came on against City, completely nullifying their most dangerous player instantly. If he can keep putting in performances like that, I'll keep faith in the system.
posted on 17/10/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 17/10/16
Stick with Herrera. Quality player.
posted on 17/10/16
RB
CB
CB
LB
Mkhit
Mata
Rooney
Pogba
Young
Ibra
anything other than that and united will be in serious trouble.
if herrera and/or lingaard feature, united will be humiliated
posted on 17/10/16
comment by rossobianchi - Rock the Pogbah (U17054)
posted 10 hours, 20 minutes ago
In part, he answered that when he came on against City, completely nullifying their most dangerous player instantly. If he can keep putting in performances like that, I'll keep faith in the system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He left some huge gaps for City though, they failed to take advantage... there were several times when our defenders were racing a 3 v 4 or 3 v 3. We were chasing the game though, so risks such risks were needed.
Against Leicester though his discipline and positioning were really good... same against Stoke.
I think he an make the role his own, over time, but for now.... I would put MS or Carrick in for the big games.
posted on 17/10/16
For some reason Carrick isn't getting a look in so theres no point in even including him
posted on 17/10/16
I would put MS or Carrick in for the big games.'
Neither are match fit thought and both would be completely murdered by Liverpool's pace of brought in tonight.
posted on 17/10/16
comment by Ji Sung Park's Cousin - where my muthaf'king dominoes at (U2958)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by rossobianchi - Rock the Pogbah (U17054)
posted 10 hours, 20 minutes ago
In part, he answered that when he came on against City, completely nullifying their most dangerous player instantly. If he can keep putting in performances like that, I'll keep faith in the system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He left some huge gaps for City though, they failed to take advantage... there were several times when our defenders were racing a 3 v 4 or 3 v 3. We were chasing the game though, so risks such risks were needed.
Against Leicester though his discipline and positioning were really good... same against Stoke.
I think he an make the role his own, over time, but for now.... I would put MS or Carrick in for the big games.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He was asked to do a very specific job against City, and did it very well IMO.
It wasn't quite the same role as he's taken up in our last two PL games, which has carried a wider remit of providing a broader defensive shield, but I wonder if it was enough for Jose to think he can do a job in that area of the pitch.
Regardless, as you say, he did well in the Leicester and Stoke games, and, if Jose sticks with the 4-3-3, deserves to keep his spot for now for me.
posted on 17/10/16
I'd be going with this for tonight:
------------------DDG
Tony V---Bailly---Smalling---Blind
----------------Herrera
---------Mata----------Pogba
Lingard--------Ibra--------Rashford
posted on 17/10/16
Looks good to me. I missed the Stoke game, how was Martial? Would it be worth starting him over Rashford after his goal?
posted on 17/10/16
He was better.
I'm all for working to rebuild his confidence and play him back into form, but firstly, it's one of the biggest games of the season tonight and we have to put our very best side out (on form and based on what Jose believes will best work tactically of course) and secondly, I think it's important we try to keep the current momentum up.
A win tonight would be a real sign of serious progress, but a draw and a credible performance if we can't manage the three points might also prove important in time.
posted on 17/10/16
Herrera sets the tempo in our midfield.
Blind, Herrera and Pogba is the three that I'd like to see.
posted on 17/10/16
But he is able to set the tempo playing a deeper role, if you play that 3 then you would need Blind to do so. Not that that can't happen but it then changes Herrera's role.
When he played against us for Bilbao he was sitting quite deep too and dictating play, but what he had that really helped was a physically imposing DM in Martinez who offered plenty of energy and offered plenty of dirty work, problem is our squad doesn't really have that player unless you count Fellaini who most think is better further forward.
posted on 17/10/16
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 12 minutes ago
But he is able to set the tempo playing a deeper role, if you play that 3 then you would need Blind to do so. Not that that can't happen but it then changes Herrera's role.
When he played against us for Bilbao he was sitting quite deep too and dictating play, but what he had that really helped was a physically imposing DM in Martinez who offered plenty of energy and offered plenty of dirty work, problem is our squad doesn't really have that player unless you count Fellaini who most think is better further forward.
---------------------
I think that TFM could play that role for us in the future but it is probably too soon for him right now. I'd really like to see him start a few games as DM this season though.
posted on 17/10/16
Based on what though? According to virtually all people who watch the U21s he's clearly shown his best in defence. There seems to be this idea that he is a midfielder based on very little?
posted on 17/10/16
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 10 minutes ago
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 12 minutes ago
But he is able to set the tempo playing a deeper role, if you play that 3 then you would need Blind to do so. Not that that can't happen but it then changes Herrera's role.
When he played against us for Bilbao he was sitting quite deep too and dictating play, but what he had that really helped was a physically imposing DM in Martinez who offered plenty of energy and offered plenty of dirty work, problem is our squad doesn't really have that player unless you count Fellaini who most think is better further forward.
---------------------
I think that TFM could play that role for us in the future but it is probably too soon for him right now. I'd really like to see him start a few games as DM this season though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If, and it's a big if, we can get Herrera working as a regista as the deepest player in a midfield three, without the need for a more traditional physically commanding defensive midfielder, that'd be much preferable solution for me.
Given that with the calibre of the players that we have we should be commanding possession in most games, why 'waste' a position on a player selected for their defensive attributes over their contribution to creative football?
It also frees Pogba to stay a little further up the pitch having a better passer of the ball in the role, rather than him having to fetch the ball all the time.
posted on 17/10/16
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 8 minutes ago
Based on what though? According to virtually all people who watch the U21s he's clearly shown his best in defence. There seems to be this idea that he is a midfielder based on very little?
---------------------------------------
He probably has played his best in defence, but that is where he has mostly played for the U21s. He plays in midfield for his country and has done well there. But I base my opinion on what I have seen of him. He looks to read the game pretty well for someone his age and is comfortable on the ball in tight situations. Throw in his physical attributes and I see no reason why he shouldn't be given a chance in DM. Its not like the position is a new one to him and he could add the physical presence and ability to pressure on the ball that we have lacked for some time.
posted on 17/10/16
Based on what though? According to virtually all people who watch the U21s he's clearly shown his best in defence. There seems to be this idea that he is a midfielder based on very little?
--------------------------------------------------
He hasn't 'clearly' shown his best work in defence. He's shown himself to be an exceptionally versatile player at U21 level, having had one or two stand out games in defence, with a decent number of very good performances in midfield also.
He's powerful, excellent at reading danger, covers a lot of ground and shows good acceleration when it comes to winning the ball back and breaking forward and he was gradually becoming more of an attacking threat and making better use of the ball but he can still improve in both areas.
There is certainly enough there to warrant giving him a chance in midfield at a higher level.
This idea that he's shown very little in midfield needs knocked in the head.
posted on 17/10/16
comment by The Red Side™ (U11275)
posted 56 minutes ago
Based on what though? According to virtually all people who watch the U21s he's clearly shown his best in defence. There seems to be this idea that he is a midfielder based on very little?
--------------------------------------------------
He hasn't 'clearly' shown his best work in defence. He's shown himself to be an exceptionally versatile player at U21 level, having had one or two stand out games in defence, with a decent number of very good performances in midfield also.
He's powerful, excellent at reading danger, covers a lot of ground and shows good acceleration when it comes to winning the ball back and breaking forward and he was gradually becoming more of an attacking threat and making better use of the ball but he can still improve in both areas.
There is certainly enough there to warrant giving him a chance in midfield at a higher level.
This idea that he's shown very little in midfield needs knocked in the head.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's more of an idea that his very best performances have been at fullback and centreback.
He clearly has attributes that would suggest he could become a very proficient defensive midfielder, but I don't quite understand people's desire to see him blooded there, rather than in the back line. It's almost as if people see the DM position as somehow more important.
What are your thoughts on moving forward with a regista in a 4-3-3, rather than a more physical, destructive defensive mid TRS? Do you like Herrera in there?
Page 1 of 2