Surprised they didn't use the no winter break excuse
I often thought Andy Murray lost some of the finals he got to because his opponents were more determined and out-enthused him. I get that impression with England that if they come up against a determined side, they do not perform to their potential.
We need to be a bit meaner and dig in. We should also encourage skilful play.
Or maybe they aren't set up properly in the big games and actually aren't that technically good. I visit the likes of Italy often and the pressure the players are under there is immense (they have daily dedicated sports papers, sports news channels etc etc) established firms of 'ultras'. How would 'snowflakes' like Sterling last in that kind of atmosphere?
In Snooker, Jimmy White (imo) was guilty of not being mentally tough to get over the finish line in a World Championship Final. Certainly where he missed a ‘routine’ colour in the deciding frame of his 18-17 loss to Hendry.
And with Murray. I thought his French Open Final loss and a couple of Australian Open Finals, he lost more to do with his own mental strength issues than the opponent.
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The problem is with football for the youngest in this country. I learned a few years ago that they way it works is the best kids when they are very young and certainly under 10 are picked up by league clubs. They are then indoctrinated into the established football mentality and taught how they should train, live, play, etc. Its very hard to break into that group at an older age in this country and more likely to happen in South America or Africa than any "developed" country. Effectively football in this country from about the age of 10 is a closed shop.
I think that ones getting through are likely just the fastest developers at a young age. And that does not necessarily mean they will be the best when they are older. Its also why the players at most top clubs have been at league clubs most of their life, like Kane, Wilshere, etc.
Until this changes I dont expect to see any change at national level. Kevin Keegan was famous for not being very good until he was 14. I doubt he would have made it into the modern game.
We are good underdogs.
We usually play well against Argentina, Brazil, Germany etc. We don't win often but it's usually our best performance of the tournament.
We are rubbish favourites though. We are already limited in technical ability compared to many foreign teams, and when we come up against obdurate opponents as favourites to beat them then we feel the pressure and our technical deficiencies become even more apparent.
We put loads of work on the mental side with psychologists etc involved with the players for years, but ultimately we need to improve the technical side to make it easier for our players to play under pressure.
We don't have the base to fall back on, then managers make the situation worse by leaving out our best techincal player in Lallana when we played Iceland
England U18's played round my way last night, I couldn't go but a couple of mates did and they reported the same old problems. We played France and drew 0-0, and they said France were superior technically, we had some big strong athletes but nobody who looked calm and composed in possession.
Same old same old with the dinosaurs at the FA. They never learn.
What players are being told to do by the England coaches is an issue to me.
For example, I only watched the second half of the game against Scotland, but this is what I picked up on.
The two Liverpool midfielders were playing a totally different game under Southgate to what they do under Klopp. For Liverpool, they look to get the ball forwards to the likes of Sturridge quickly.
For England they seemed quite content to knock it backwards or sideways like Rooney does for us, with no urgency what so ever.
A comment you would not usually associate with me considering my ‘hobby horse’ relating to Management Stability.
I do believe the England Manager should only get a 2 year contract that is up to and including any tournament we may have qualified for.
Too many England managers have failed for it to be all the manager's fault.
Personally, I think English players are, in general, mentally weak and that this is a factor in major tournaments. However, this issue is now exacerbated by the fact that the players aren't that good either.
We have the most hyped League in World football, and I think some players buy in to it and think they are Superior
The two coaches that have got the best out of England in my 30yrs or so of following England are Venables and Robson, two endearing personalities who are people's people but also know their onions and play good football. Dare I say loved by their players.
The others have been boring/meek/authoritarian/arrogant/clueless.
Webare a bit of a Jack the Lad culture on the whole, perhaps we need someone who fits that mould.
omment by redmisty (U7556)
posted 3 minutes ago
Too many England managers have failed for it to be all the manager's fault.
Personally, I think English players are, in general, mentally weak and that this is a factor in major tournaments. However, this issue is now exacerbated by the fact that the players aren't that good either.
.................
Can't argue with that either.
The two coaches that have got the best out of England in my 30yrs or so of following England are Venables and Robson, two endearing personalities who are people's people but also know their onions and play good football. Dare I say loved by their players.
...........
Yes.
Our players are generally not good enough. Not really a mental block jus a lack of ability I think.
The two coaches that have got the best out of England in my 30yrs or so of following England are Venables and Robson,
____________
Their teams still cracked under the pressure of penalty shootouts though!
We don't crack under pressure, we just aren't that good.
And friendlies are meaningless. Beating Germany, Portugal or anyone else in a friendly proves nothing.
comment by redmisty (U7556)
posted 4 minutes ago
The two coaches that have got the best out of England in my 30yrs or so of following England are Venables and Robson,
____________
Their teams still cracked under the pressure of penalty shootouts though!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really.
In 90 Pearce did what he did - smashed it and had it saved. Waddle was a shoit one though.
In 96 the penalties were superb, barring the one. Plus we actually won a shootout too in the QF
I think we should just give it to Gazza. With Paul Ince as his minder.
It may be a car crash, but at least an entertaining one
Not really.
In 90 Pearce did what he did - smashed it and had it saved. Waddle was a shoit one though.
In 96 the penalties were superb, barring the one. Plus we actually won a shootout too in the QF
_______________
Yeah we limped through the game against Spain though. And that is the only major shootout I can remember us winning! The Germans were more composed and/or mentally stronger than we were both times.
Our first 5 pens in 96 were excellent tbf but we still blinked before our opponents did...hence we lost. Again.
Our first 5 pens in 96 were excellent tbf but we still blinked before our opponents did...hence we lost. Again.
.............
All about mentality and pressure.
I do wonder whether today's English players are keen to play for patriotic reasons or if they just regard an international cap as something which can be used as a means of increasing their club wages or transfer opportunities.
For tremendous fitness and determination to win look no further than the GB Women's Olympic win in the final. The only thing missing in that game was the fact that we beat the Dutch and not the Germans.
In the past I would say its a mental block, but now I would say it's lack of talent.
It doesn't help that barely any English players play abroad in the other top leagues. Mind you, there aren't too many England players playing regularly for the top PL sides either
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
Our first 5 pens in 96 were excellent tbf but we still blinked before our opponents did...hence we lost. Again.
.............
All about mentality and pressure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always saw that shoot-out as a victory for Germany's planning and preperation, there's a reason why they had Andy Moller as their 6th and we were scratching around and ended up with a centre back who just "fancied it".
I think Germany had about 12-13 penalty takers in their squad who at any point, if needed, could step up and take one during the tournament, England probably had about six...
I think England's preperation has been woeful for tournaments, not practicing penalties, taking injured players, taking out of form players, shoe-horning players into the stating 11, it's like opposite of marginal gains, marginal decreases
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Do England players 'crack' under.....
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posted on 15/11/16
Surprised they didn't use the no winter break excuse
posted on 15/11/16
I often thought Andy Murray lost some of the finals he got to because his opponents were more determined and out-enthused him. I get that impression with England that if they come up against a determined side, they do not perform to their potential.
We need to be a bit meaner and dig in. We should also encourage skilful play.
posted on 15/11/16
Or maybe they aren't set up properly in the big games and actually aren't that technically good. I visit the likes of Italy often and the pressure the players are under there is immense (they have daily dedicated sports papers, sports news channels etc etc) established firms of 'ultras'. How would 'snowflakes' like Sterling last in that kind of atmosphere?
posted on 15/11/16
In Snooker, Jimmy White (imo) was guilty of not being mentally tough to get over the finish line in a World Championship Final. Certainly where he missed a ‘routine’ colour in the deciding frame of his 18-17 loss to Hendry.
And with Murray. I thought his French Open Final loss and a couple of Australian Open Finals, he lost more to do with his own mental strength issues than the opponent.
posted on 15/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/11/16
The problem is with football for the youngest in this country. I learned a few years ago that they way it works is the best kids when they are very young and certainly under 10 are picked up by league clubs. They are then indoctrinated into the established football mentality and taught how they should train, live, play, etc. Its very hard to break into that group at an older age in this country and more likely to happen in South America or Africa than any "developed" country. Effectively football in this country from about the age of 10 is a closed shop.
I think that ones getting through are likely just the fastest developers at a young age. And that does not necessarily mean they will be the best when they are older. Its also why the players at most top clubs have been at league clubs most of their life, like Kane, Wilshere, etc.
Until this changes I dont expect to see any change at national level. Kevin Keegan was famous for not being very good until he was 14. I doubt he would have made it into the modern game.
posted on 15/11/16
We are good underdogs.
We usually play well against Argentina, Brazil, Germany etc. We don't win often but it's usually our best performance of the tournament.
We are rubbish favourites though. We are already limited in technical ability compared to many foreign teams, and when we come up against obdurate opponents as favourites to beat them then we feel the pressure and our technical deficiencies become even more apparent.
We put loads of work on the mental side with psychologists etc involved with the players for years, but ultimately we need to improve the technical side to make it easier for our players to play under pressure.
We don't have the base to fall back on, then managers make the situation worse by leaving out our best techincal player in Lallana when we played Iceland
England U18's played round my way last night, I couldn't go but a couple of mates did and they reported the same old problems. We played France and drew 0-0, and they said France were superior technically, we had some big strong athletes but nobody who looked calm and composed in possession.
Same old same old with the dinosaurs at the FA. They never learn.
posted on 15/11/16
What players are being told to do by the England coaches is an issue to me.
For example, I only watched the second half of the game against Scotland, but this is what I picked up on.
The two Liverpool midfielders were playing a totally different game under Southgate to what they do under Klopp. For Liverpool, they look to get the ball forwards to the likes of Sturridge quickly.
For England they seemed quite content to knock it backwards or sideways like Rooney does for us, with no urgency what so ever.
posted on 15/11/16
A comment you would not usually associate with me considering my ‘hobby horse’ relating to Management Stability.
I do believe the England Manager should only get a 2 year contract that is up to and including any tournament we may have qualified for.
posted on 15/11/16
Too many England managers have failed for it to be all the manager's fault.
Personally, I think English players are, in general, mentally weak and that this is a factor in major tournaments. However, this issue is now exacerbated by the fact that the players aren't that good either.
posted on 15/11/16
We have the most hyped League in World football, and I think some players buy in to it and think they are Superior
posted on 15/11/16
The two coaches that have got the best out of England in my 30yrs or so of following England are Venables and Robson, two endearing personalities who are people's people but also know their onions and play good football. Dare I say loved by their players.
The others have been boring/meek/authoritarian/arrogant/clueless.
Webare a bit of a Jack the Lad culture on the whole, perhaps we need someone who fits that mould.
posted on 15/11/16
omment by redmisty (U7556)
posted 3 minutes ago
Too many England managers have failed for it to be all the manager's fault.
Personally, I think English players are, in general, mentally weak and that this is a factor in major tournaments. However, this issue is now exacerbated by the fact that the players aren't that good either.
.................
Can't argue with that either.
posted on 15/11/16
The two coaches that have got the best out of England in my 30yrs or so of following England are Venables and Robson, two endearing personalities who are people's people but also know their onions and play good football. Dare I say loved by their players.
...........
Yes.
posted on 15/11/16
Our players are generally not good enough. Not really a mental block jus a lack of ability I think.
posted on 15/11/16
The two coaches that have got the best out of England in my 30yrs or so of following England are Venables and Robson,
____________
Their teams still cracked under the pressure of penalty shootouts though!
posted on 15/11/16
We don't crack under pressure, we just aren't that good.
And friendlies are meaningless. Beating Germany, Portugal or anyone else in a friendly proves nothing.
posted on 15/11/16
comment by redmisty (U7556)
posted 4 minutes ago
The two coaches that have got the best out of England in my 30yrs or so of following England are Venables and Robson,
____________
Their teams still cracked under the pressure of penalty shootouts though!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really.
In 90 Pearce did what he did - smashed it and had it saved. Waddle was a shoit one though.
In 96 the penalties were superb, barring the one. Plus we actually won a shootout too in the QF
posted on 15/11/16
I think we should just give it to Gazza. With Paul Ince as his minder.
It may be a car crash, but at least an entertaining one
posted on 15/11/16
Not really.
In 90 Pearce did what he did - smashed it and had it saved. Waddle was a shoit one though.
In 96 the penalties were superb, barring the one. Plus we actually won a shootout too in the QF
_______________
Yeah we limped through the game against Spain though. And that is the only major shootout I can remember us winning! The Germans were more composed and/or mentally stronger than we were both times.
Our first 5 pens in 96 were excellent tbf but we still blinked before our opponents did...hence we lost. Again.
posted on 15/11/16
Our first 5 pens in 96 were excellent tbf but we still blinked before our opponents did...hence we lost. Again.
.............
All about mentality and pressure.
posted on 15/11/16
I do wonder whether today's English players are keen to play for patriotic reasons or if they just regard an international cap as something which can be used as a means of increasing their club wages or transfer opportunities.
For tremendous fitness and determination to win look no further than the GB Women's Olympic win in the final. The only thing missing in that game was the fact that we beat the Dutch and not the Germans.
posted on 15/11/16
In the past I would say its a mental block, but now I would say it's lack of talent.
It doesn't help that barely any English players play abroad in the other top leagues. Mind you, there aren't too many England players playing regularly for the top PL sides either
posted on 15/11/16
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
Our first 5 pens in 96 were excellent tbf but we still blinked before our opponents did...hence we lost. Again.
.............
All about mentality and pressure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I always saw that shoot-out as a victory for Germany's planning and preperation, there's a reason why they had Andy Moller as their 6th and we were scratching around and ended up with a centre back who just "fancied it".
I think Germany had about 12-13 penalty takers in their squad who at any point, if needed, could step up and take one during the tournament, England probably had about six...
I think England's preperation has been woeful for tournaments, not practicing penalties, taking injured players, taking out of form players, shoe-horning players into the stating 11, it's like opposite of marginal gains, marginal decreases
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