comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 hour, 28 minutes ago
comment by Thor (U22388)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 20 seconds ago
There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
That wasn't proven at all and yes, I mean that.
There's nothing to debate here.
You're sitting on your high and mighty talking about how fans are swayed by their perception, without a hint of irony, as someone who accused the officials of corruption because he didn't agree with the decision.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Diagonal lines aren't perception.
Anyway, I'm out before you draw me into this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.premierleague.com/news/1488423
This is how it's supposed to work, straight lines.
How drawing a diagonal line is perception, I don't know. It's at best a mistake and at worse, trying your best to make it offside.
They literally did it twice, both with straight lines and he was onside, then did it again and drew a diagonal line, making him offside.
This was all on camera, nobody can dispute it.
You can clearly see, even without the line, he is onside.
https://images.app.goo.gl/Bc9NPrsLevbjCPz66
They drew the lines twice, he was still onside, with straight lines, then the third time they drew a diagonal line, making him offside. It was ridiculous. It hasn't happened again since, so I'm hoping it's a one off and overall I'm happy with the increase in correct decisions.
Look!
https://images.app.goo.gl/xT5DfaabMoT4Do6U9
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LiVARpool though.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 seconds ago
Only shocking if you're biased.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would Andy Gray, an Everton fan be biased towards Liverpool? Why did numerous TV stations across the world pick up on it and point it out? Surely they aren't biased?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They questioned it at the time of the incident, which is their job.
What they didn't do is conclude that the officials must be corrupt and to my knowledge, they haven't rubbished explanations that were subsequently presented.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, instead they said what I did, the officials moved the lines to show it was offside, on purpose, when you could clearly see he was onside.
You clearly haven't read or watched what was said. Have a Google, see what they're saying. This isn't a bias thing.
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 seconds ago
Only shocking if you're biased.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would Andy Gray, an Everton fan be biased towards Liverpool? Why did numerous TV stations across the world pick up on it and point it out? Surely they aren't biased?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They questioned it at the time of the incident, which is their job.
What they didn't do is conclude that the officials must be corrupt and to my knowledge, they haven't rubbished explanations that were subsequently presented.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, instead they said what I did, the officials moved the lines to show it was offside, on purpose, when you could clearly see he was onside.
You clearly haven't read or watched what was said. Have a Google, see what they're saying. This isn't a bias thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if they did claim that then they're being ridiculous.
That doesn't mean you're not being biased, does it?
Particularly given your history, TOOR, it's not a surprise that the only incident you can recall where an official apparently deliberately gave an onside decision as offside is one that affected Liverpool FC.
What were the chances?
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 seconds ago
Only shocking if you're biased.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would Andy Gray, an Everton fan be biased towards Liverpool? Why did numerous TV stations across the world pick up on it and point it out? Surely they aren't biased?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They questioned it at the time of the incident, which is their job.
What they didn't do is conclude that the officials must be corrupt and to my knowledge, they haven't rubbished explanations that were subsequently presented.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, instead they said what I did, the officials moved the lines to show it was offside, on purpose, when you could clearly see he was onside.
You clearly haven't read or watched what was said. Have a Google, see what they're saying. This isn't a bias thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if they did claim that then they're being ridiculous.
That doesn't mean you're not being biased, does it?
Particularly given your history, TOOR, it's not a surprise that the only incident you can recall where an official apparently deliberately gave an onside decision as offside is one that affected Liverpool FC.
What were the chances?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I guess we are all ridiculous then. It wasn't the only incident I can recall. It was the only incident they drew lines several times when you could see he wasn't offside and ended up drawing a diagonal one, placing Firmino's line in front of the defenders.
Unless you can point to another one like that?
There's a typical tactic TOOR... pretend that 'everyone' shares your view to try and isolate me.
Beginners level mate.
I've just watched the Gray clip and I don't hear him say that the officials moved the lines to show it was offside, on purpose.
Not saying it didn't happen but is there any evidence?
As I say - what a coincidence. The only VAR incident where officials have inexplicably decided to make a player offside even though he isn't... and it's Liverpool.
Any reasons why they did that? VAR official doesn't like Liverpool? Firmino not in his fantasy league team?
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
There's a typical tactic TOOR... pretend that 'everyone' shares your view to try and isolate me.
Beginners level mate.
I've just watched the Gray clip and I don't hear him say that the officials moved the lines to show it was offside, on purpose.
Not saying it didn't happen but is there any evidence?
As I say - what a coincidence. The only VAR incident where officials have inexplicably decided to make a player offside even though he isn't... and it's Liverpool.
Any reasons why they did that? VAR official doesn't like Liverpool? Firmino not in his fantasy league team?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure why. Try keep the PL tighter? It's really true Atkinson doesnt like Liverpool and the poor decisions aren't just a coincidence? Trying to keep the 'incorrect decisions' overturned down?
I'm not going to try guess the reason. All I've done is show that the decision was incorrect.
No you haven't TOOR, you haven't done that at all.
It's the very reason you can't offer up a reason as it is that the whole thing is ridiculous.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 seconds ago
No you haven't TOOR, you haven't done that at all.
It's the very reason you can't offer up a reason as it is that the whole thing is ridiculous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't read his mind so I don't know the reason.
Here's the explanation that I read, by the way (one of them):
At the first stage in the process, the (yellow) offside line has been completed on Mings. VAR then sets the offside point to Firmino. He has already set the point on the armpit. Then he needs to set the centre of gravity (marked by the feet).
The VAR at first selected this point as being the centre of gravity - close to Mings' hand and what the VAR thought was the foot of Firmino.
That created the initial black offside line to Firmino, so when it was deleted, many have cried foul. (Remember, offside lines are not final until they are red and blue, this is the calculation stage.)
However, at that point the VAR noticed that Firmino's foot could just be seen through the legs of Mings. And this creates the true centre of gravity for the imaging software, not the first calculation.
This means the Firmino offside decision was re-calibrated based on the correct measurements to the attacking player's foot between Mings' legs.
Also worthing noting re: centre of gravity.
It's the position used to determine where the vertical projection of any part that is not touching the ground lands.
You first find this CoG, then cross a vertical line from the armpit (in this case) with a perpendicular one from the CoG.
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 seconds ago
No you haven't TOOR, you haven't done that at all.
It's the very reason you can't offer up a reason as it is that the whole thing is ridiculous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't read his mind so I don't know the reason.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but you could step back and think about what you're saying.
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why. And no one has done anything about it.
TOOR witnessed real, live corruption and no one has looked into it further.
Staggering, isn't it?
Of course, the other issue here is that as a big advocate of VAR and someone who claims that offside is definitive, this completely destroys that view.
If you understand how they came to the decision but you disagree with it, you accept that actually, it isn't definitive and it still has flaws.
Of course, anyone with a modicum of common sense is asking why the feck we need to work out whether Firmino's armpit is an inch past the defenders knee for the good of the game anyway, but that's a separate debate.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
Here's the explanation that I read, by the way (one of them):
At the first stage in the process, the (yellow) offside line has been completed on Mings. VAR then sets the offside point to Firmino. He has already set the point on the armpit. Then he needs to set the centre of gravity (marked by the feet).
The VAR at first selected this point as being the centre of gravity - close to Mings' hand and what the VAR thought was the foot of Firmino.
That created the initial black offside line to Firmino, so when it was deleted, many have cried foul. (Remember, offside lines are not final until they are red and blue, this is the calculation stage.)
However, at that point the VAR noticed that Firmino's foot could just be seen through the legs of Mings. And this creates the true centre of gravity for the imaging software, not the first calculation.
This means the Firmino offside decision was re-calibrated based on the correct measurements to the attacking player's foot between Mings' legs.
Also worthing noting re: centre of gravity.
It's the position used to determine where the vertical projection of any part that is not touching the ground lands.
You first find this CoG, then cross a vertical line from the armpit (in this case) with a perpendicular one from the CoG.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I'm not talking about that part. I'm talking about when they moved the line from Firmino's armpit three times, switching the lines and settling gonna diagonal line from Firmino's armpit to the line they had switched around.
Oh, one bit of added explanation:
Vertical offside line for VAR will not appear straight on a 2D image - the effect of perspective through imaging technology.
The vertical line is not directly to the ground if you use a ruler or a bit of paper
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
Here's the explanation that I read, by the way (one of them):
At the first stage in the process, the (yellow) offside line has been completed on Mings. VAR then sets the offside point to Firmino. He has already set the point on the armpit. Then he needs to set the centre of gravity (marked by the feet).
The VAR at first selected this point as being the centre of gravity - close to Mings' hand and what the VAR thought was the foot of Firmino.
That created the initial black offside line to Firmino, so when it was deleted, many have cried foul. (Remember, offside lines are not final until they are red and blue, this is the calculation stage.)
However, at that point the VAR noticed that Firmino's foot could just be seen through the legs of Mings. And this creates the true centre of gravity for the imaging software, not the first calculation.
This means the Firmino offside decision was re-calibrated based on the correct measurements to the attacking player's foot between Mings' legs.
Also worthing noting re: centre of gravity.
It's the position used to determine where the vertical projection of any part that is not touching the ground lands.
You first find this CoG, then cross a vertical line from the armpit (in this case) with a perpendicular one from the CoG.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I'm not talking about that part. I'm talking about when they moved the line from Firmino's armpit three times, switching the lines and settling gonna diagonal line from Firmino's armpit to the line they had switched around.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In tight instances, the lines will be moved until they're happy it's right.
As above, you perceiving it as diagonal doesn't make it so.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 seconds ago
No you haven't TOOR, you haven't done that at all.
It's the very reason you can't offer up a reason as it is that the whole thing is ridiculous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't read his mind so I don't know the reason.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but you could step back and think about what you're saying.
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why. And no one has done anything about it.
TOOR witnessed real, live corruption and no one has looked into it further.
Staggering, isn't it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It happens. Referees have admitted to it. I read two retired referees saying they felt compelled to add more time on for United, due to Fergie going mad for example. It could also be a mistake. I remember Berbatov diving for United in the first minute or so against Liverpool and Webb giving the penalty. People laughed at my suggestion Webb got it wrong. He later admitted he got it wrong.
Oh come on TOOR - you surely can't equate a referee in the middle of a massive crowd feeling pressured vs a VAR official sat in a room with his team?
You are just digging your heels in because that's what you do.
You cannot just step back and admit that you might have got this wrong.
You're entitled to believe the offside was wrong.
But you're not entitled to claim as fact that the lines were wrong and that the official deliberately acted in a way that showed Firmino was offside, even though he knew he wasn't.
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 seconds ago
Only shocking if you're biased.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would Andy Gray, an Everton fan be biased towards Liverpool? Why did numerous TV stations across the world pick up on it and point it out? Surely they aren't biased?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They questioned it at the time of the incident, which is their job.
What they didn't do is conclude that the officials must be corrupt and to my knowledge, they haven't rubbished explanations that were subsequently presented.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, instead they said what I did,
------
comment by Thor (U22388)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 seconds ago
Only shocking if you're biased.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would Andy Gray, an Everton fan be biased towards Liverpool? Why did numerous TV stations across the world pick up on it and point it out? Surely they aren't biased?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They questioned it at the time of the incident, which is their job.
What they didn't do is conclude that the officials must be corrupt and to my knowledge, they haven't rubbished explanations that were subsequently presented.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, instead they said what I did,
------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Has been shown to be wrong.
Laugh away.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 32 minutes ago
Oh come on TOOR - you surely can't equate a referee in the middle of a massive crowd feeling pressured vs a VAR official sat in a room with his team?
You are just digging your heels in because that's what you do.
You cannot just step back and admit that you might have got this wrong.
You're entitled to believe the offside was wrong.
But you're not entitled to claim as fact that the lines were wrong and that the official deliberately acted in a way that showed Firmino was offside, even though he knew he wasn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not equating it, I'm just saying it happens and gave you a couple of examples.
I do think it was factual as there is video evidence of it happening, where TV companies around the world called it out. It was on Sky the following morning also and they were going crazy about it. In fact Chris Kamara said:-
“I’m not happy with it, I’ll be 100% honest with you,”
“In my opinion, this is made up, this has been made up by somebody at Stockley Park who’s decided they don’t want this to be a goal, and that is my opinion, and that is my honest opinion.
“From the naked eye you don’t need that calibration of dots or whatever to tell you, look at Tyrone Mings’ knee, Firmino is onside, right.
“So you look at the yellow line and there’s a black line there as well. So they’ve done that there - that tells you that he was onside.
“So they change it around now to make it that Firmino is the black line and Tyrone Mings is the yellow line, as you can see now."
“But the line that comes up towards Firmino isn’t straight - that’s not a straight line, that’s an angled line," he added.
“I put a piece of paper to it this morning haven’t I and I showed you - that is not a straight line.
“Get your rulers out, get your spirit level out. That red line is not a straight line.
“Now, somebody has decided to do that and I think they should be outed because that is not offside for me.
“That’s why it’s not a straight line, look at that paper, look how angled it is, that’s not a straight line.”
So if you're trying to make it out that it's a biased opinion, are Chris Kamara and Andy Gray, biased towards Liverpool?
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why.
------
We know why and its generally accepted that VAR refs will try not to interfere with the on field decision and this is exactly what happened here. Corruptly using diagonal lines to justify the on field decision and cheating a team out of a valid goal.
And no one has done anything about it.
-----
What would you suggest be done about it?
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 32 minutes ago
Oh come on TOOR - you surely can't equate a referee in the middle of a massive crowd feeling pressured vs a VAR official sat in a room with his team?
You are just digging your heels in because that's what you do.
You cannot just step back and admit that you might have got this wrong.
You're entitled to believe the offside was wrong.
But you're not entitled to claim as fact that the lines were wrong and that the official deliberately acted in a way that showed Firmino was offside, even though he knew he wasn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not equating it, I'm just saying it happens and gave you a couple of examples.
I do think it was factual as there is video evidence of it happening, where TV companies around the world called it out. It was on Sky the following morning also and they were going crazy about it. In fact Chris Kamara said:-
“I’m not happy with it, I’ll be 100% honest with you,”
“In my opinion, this is made up, this has been made up by somebody at Stockley Park who’s decided they don’t want this to be a goal, and that is my opinion, and that is my honest opinion.
“From the naked eye you don’t need that calibration of dots or whatever to tell you, look at Tyrone Mings’ knee, Firmino is onside, right.
“So you look at the yellow line and there’s a black line there as well. So they’ve done that there - that tells you that he was onside.
“So they change it around now to make it that Firmino is the black line and Tyrone Mings is the yellow line, as you can see now."
“But the line that comes up towards Firmino isn’t straight - that’s not a straight line, that’s an angled line," he added.
“I put a piece of paper to it this morning haven’t I and I showed you - that is not a straight line.
“Get your rulers out, get your spirit level out. That red line is not a straight line.
“Now, somebody has decided to do that and I think they should be outed because that is not offside for me.
“That’s why it’s not a straight line, look at that paper, look how angled it is, that’s not a straight line.”
So if you're trying to make it out that it's a biased opinion, are Chris Kamara and Andy Gray, biased towards Liverpool?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All this shows is people who don't understand how the technology works.
I posted up why the line won't necessarily look straight.
You're proving my point for me.
comment by Thor (U22388)
posted 1 minute ago
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why.
------
We know why and its generally accepted that VAR refs will try not to interfere with the on field decision and this is exactly what happened here. Corruptly using diagonal lines to justify the on field decision and cheating a team out of a valid goal.
And no one has done anything about it.
-----
What would you suggest be done about it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd suggest if there's a chance that an official has deliberately deceived the on pitch referee then an investigation takes place.
Funny how no one else is mentioning this apparent corruption though, isn't it?
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 32 minutes ago
Oh come on TOOR - you surely can't equate a referee in the middle of a massive crowd feeling pressured vs a VAR official sat in a room with his team?
You are just digging your heels in because that's what you do.
You cannot just step back and admit that you might have got this wrong.
You're entitled to believe the offside was wrong.
But you're not entitled to claim as fact that the lines were wrong and that the official deliberately acted in a way that showed Firmino was offside, even though he knew he wasn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not equating it, I'm just saying it happens and gave you a couple of examples.
I do think it was factual as there is video evidence of it happening, where TV companies around the world called it out. It was on Sky the following morning also and they were going crazy about it. In fact Chris Kamara said:-
“I’m not happy with it, I’ll be 100% honest with you,”
“In my opinion, this is made up, this has been made up by somebody at Stockley Park who’s decided they don’t want this to be a goal, and that is my opinion, and that is my honest opinion.
“From the naked eye you don’t need that calibration of dots or whatever to tell you, look at Tyrone Mings’ knee, Firmino is onside, right.
“So you look at the yellow line and there’s a black line there as well. So they’ve done that there - that tells you that he was onside.
“So they change it around now to make it that Firmino is the black line and Tyrone Mings is the yellow line, as you can see now."
“But the line that comes up towards Firmino isn’t straight - that’s not a straight line, that’s an angled line," he added.
“I put a piece of paper to it this morning haven’t I and I showed you - that is not a straight line.
“Get your rulers out, get your spirit level out. That red line is not a straight line.
“Now, somebody has decided to do that and I think they should be outed because that is not offside for me.
“That’s why it’s not a straight line, look at that paper, look how angled it is, that’s not a straight line.”
So if you're trying to make it out that it's a biased opinion, are Chris Kamara and Andy Gray, biased towards Liverpool?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All this shows is people who don't understand how the technology works.
I posted up why the line won't necessarily look straight.
You're proving my point for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it shows people being outraged by an incorrect decision were they 'made' a player offside, who you can clearly see is onside.
But we've been over this, we're not going to agree.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 33 seconds ago
comment by Thor (U22388)
posted 1 minute ago
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why.
------
We know why and its generally accepted that VAR refs will try not to interfere with the on field decision and this is exactly what happened here. Corruptly using diagonal lines to justify the on field decision and cheating a team out of a valid goal.
And no one has done anything about it.
-----
What would you suggest be done about it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd suggest if there's a chance that an official has deliberately deceived the on pitch referee then an investigation takes place.
-------
Perhaps you should bump th e issue to authorities. Personally I don't see how it's deception of an official, mainly because it isn't. I also don't see why it should warrant an investigation, mainly because it doesn't. It only requires that they be re-instructed.
Funny how no one else is mentioning this apparent corruption though, isn't it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really, it was pointed out by many as you've been told.
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Thor (U22388)
posted 1 minute ago
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why.
------
We know why and its generally accepted that VAR refs will try not to interfere with the on field decision and this is exactly what happened here. Corruptly using diagonal lines to justify the on field decision and cheating a team out of a valid goal.
And no one has done anything about it.
-----
What would you suggest be done about it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd suggest if there's a chance that an official has deliberately deceived the on pitch referee then an investigation takes place.
Funny how no one else is mentioning this apparent corruption though, isn't it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you talking about noone else?
It was all over the world. TV stations and pundits disagreeing with it. Qatar, Australia, USA, South Africa, UK.
Sign in if you want to comment
Getting Bored
Page 2 of 4
posted on 18/5/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 hour, 28 minutes ago
comment by Thor (U22388)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 20 seconds ago
There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
That wasn't proven at all and yes, I mean that.
There's nothing to debate here.
You're sitting on your high and mighty talking about how fans are swayed by their perception, without a hint of irony, as someone who accused the officials of corruption because he didn't agree with the decision.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Diagonal lines aren't perception.
Anyway, I'm out before you draw me into this.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.premierleague.com/news/1488423
This is how it's supposed to work, straight lines.
How drawing a diagonal line is perception, I don't know. It's at best a mistake and at worse, trying your best to make it offside.
They literally did it twice, both with straight lines and he was onside, then did it again and drew a diagonal line, making him offside.
This was all on camera, nobody can dispute it.
You can clearly see, even without the line, he is onside.
https://images.app.goo.gl/Bc9NPrsLevbjCPz66
They drew the lines twice, he was still onside, with straight lines, then the third time they drew a diagonal line, making him offside. It was ridiculous. It hasn't happened again since, so I'm hoping it's a one off and overall I'm happy with the increase in correct decisions.
Look!
https://images.app.goo.gl/xT5DfaabMoT4Do6U9
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LiVARpool though.
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 seconds ago
Only shocking if you're biased.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would Andy Gray, an Everton fan be biased towards Liverpool? Why did numerous TV stations across the world pick up on it and point it out? Surely they aren't biased?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They questioned it at the time of the incident, which is their job.
What they didn't do is conclude that the officials must be corrupt and to my knowledge, they haven't rubbished explanations that were subsequently presented.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, instead they said what I did, the officials moved the lines to show it was offside, on purpose, when you could clearly see he was onside.
You clearly haven't read or watched what was said. Have a Google, see what they're saying. This isn't a bias thing.
posted on 18/5/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 seconds ago
Only shocking if you're biased.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would Andy Gray, an Everton fan be biased towards Liverpool? Why did numerous TV stations across the world pick up on it and point it out? Surely they aren't biased?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They questioned it at the time of the incident, which is their job.
What they didn't do is conclude that the officials must be corrupt and to my knowledge, they haven't rubbished explanations that were subsequently presented.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, instead they said what I did, the officials moved the lines to show it was offside, on purpose, when you could clearly see he was onside.
You clearly haven't read or watched what was said. Have a Google, see what they're saying. This isn't a bias thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if they did claim that then they're being ridiculous.
That doesn't mean you're not being biased, does it?
Particularly given your history, TOOR, it's not a surprise that the only incident you can recall where an official apparently deliberately gave an onside decision as offside is one that affected Liverpool FC.
What were the chances?
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 12 seconds ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 seconds ago
Only shocking if you're biased.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would Andy Gray, an Everton fan be biased towards Liverpool? Why did numerous TV stations across the world pick up on it and point it out? Surely they aren't biased?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They questioned it at the time of the incident, which is their job.
What they didn't do is conclude that the officials must be corrupt and to my knowledge, they haven't rubbished explanations that were subsequently presented.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, instead they said what I did, the officials moved the lines to show it was offside, on purpose, when you could clearly see he was onside.
You clearly haven't read or watched what was said. Have a Google, see what they're saying. This isn't a bias thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if they did claim that then they're being ridiculous.
That doesn't mean you're not being biased, does it?
Particularly given your history, TOOR, it's not a surprise that the only incident you can recall where an official apparently deliberately gave an onside decision as offside is one that affected Liverpool FC.
What were the chances?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I guess we are all ridiculous then. It wasn't the only incident I can recall. It was the only incident they drew lines several times when you could see he wasn't offside and ended up drawing a diagonal one, placing Firmino's line in front of the defenders.
Unless you can point to another one like that?
posted on 18/5/20
There's a typical tactic TOOR... pretend that 'everyone' shares your view to try and isolate me.
Beginners level mate.
I've just watched the Gray clip and I don't hear him say that the officials moved the lines to show it was offside, on purpose.
Not saying it didn't happen but is there any evidence?
As I say - what a coincidence. The only VAR incident where officials have inexplicably decided to make a player offside even though he isn't... and it's Liverpool.
Any reasons why they did that? VAR official doesn't like Liverpool? Firmino not in his fantasy league team?
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 1 minute ago
There's a typical tactic TOOR... pretend that 'everyone' shares your view to try and isolate me.
Beginners level mate.
I've just watched the Gray clip and I don't hear him say that the officials moved the lines to show it was offside, on purpose.
Not saying it didn't happen but is there any evidence?
As I say - what a coincidence. The only VAR incident where officials have inexplicably decided to make a player offside even though he isn't... and it's Liverpool.
Any reasons why they did that? VAR official doesn't like Liverpool? Firmino not in his fantasy league team?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure why. Try keep the PL tighter? It's really true Atkinson doesnt like Liverpool and the poor decisions aren't just a coincidence? Trying to keep the 'incorrect decisions' overturned down?
I'm not going to try guess the reason. All I've done is show that the decision was incorrect.
posted on 18/5/20
No you haven't TOOR, you haven't done that at all.
It's the very reason you can't offer up a reason as it is that the whole thing is ridiculous.
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 seconds ago
No you haven't TOOR, you haven't done that at all.
It's the very reason you can't offer up a reason as it is that the whole thing is ridiculous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't read his mind so I don't know the reason.
posted on 18/5/20
Here's the explanation that I read, by the way (one of them):
At the first stage in the process, the (yellow) offside line has been completed on Mings. VAR then sets the offside point to Firmino. He has already set the point on the armpit. Then he needs to set the centre of gravity (marked by the feet).
The VAR at first selected this point as being the centre of gravity - close to Mings' hand and what the VAR thought was the foot of Firmino.
That created the initial black offside line to Firmino, so when it was deleted, many have cried foul. (Remember, offside lines are not final until they are red and blue, this is the calculation stage.)
However, at that point the VAR noticed that Firmino's foot could just be seen through the legs of Mings. And this creates the true centre of gravity for the imaging software, not the first calculation.
This means the Firmino offside decision was re-calibrated based on the correct measurements to the attacking player's foot between Mings' legs.
Also worthing noting re: centre of gravity.
It's the position used to determine where the vertical projection of any part that is not touching the ground lands.
You first find this CoG, then cross a vertical line from the armpit (in this case) with a perpendicular one from the CoG.
posted on 18/5/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 seconds ago
No you haven't TOOR, you haven't done that at all.
It's the very reason you can't offer up a reason as it is that the whole thing is ridiculous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't read his mind so I don't know the reason.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but you could step back and think about what you're saying.
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why. And no one has done anything about it.
TOOR witnessed real, live corruption and no one has looked into it further.
Staggering, isn't it?
posted on 18/5/20
Of course, the other issue here is that as a big advocate of VAR and someone who claims that offside is definitive, this completely destroys that view.
If you understand how they came to the decision but you disagree with it, you accept that actually, it isn't definitive and it still has flaws.
Of course, anyone with a modicum of common sense is asking why the feck we need to work out whether Firmino's armpit is an inch past the defenders knee for the good of the game anyway, but that's a separate debate.
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
Here's the explanation that I read, by the way (one of them):
At the first stage in the process, the (yellow) offside line has been completed on Mings. VAR then sets the offside point to Firmino. He has already set the point on the armpit. Then he needs to set the centre of gravity (marked by the feet).
The VAR at first selected this point as being the centre of gravity - close to Mings' hand and what the VAR thought was the foot of Firmino.
That created the initial black offside line to Firmino, so when it was deleted, many have cried foul. (Remember, offside lines are not final until they are red and blue, this is the calculation stage.)
However, at that point the VAR noticed that Firmino's foot could just be seen through the legs of Mings. And this creates the true centre of gravity for the imaging software, not the first calculation.
This means the Firmino offside decision was re-calibrated based on the correct measurements to the attacking player's foot between Mings' legs.
Also worthing noting re: centre of gravity.
It's the position used to determine where the vertical projection of any part that is not touching the ground lands.
You first find this CoG, then cross a vertical line from the armpit (in this case) with a perpendicular one from the CoG.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I'm not talking about that part. I'm talking about when they moved the line from Firmino's armpit three times, switching the lines and settling gonna diagonal line from Firmino's armpit to the line they had switched around.
posted on 18/5/20
Oh, one bit of added explanation:
Vertical offside line for VAR will not appear straight on a 2D image - the effect of perspective through imaging technology.
The vertical line is not directly to the ground if you use a ruler or a bit of paper
posted on 18/5/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 15 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 minutes ago
Here's the explanation that I read, by the way (one of them):
At the first stage in the process, the (yellow) offside line has been completed on Mings. VAR then sets the offside point to Firmino. He has already set the point on the armpit. Then he needs to set the centre of gravity (marked by the feet).
The VAR at first selected this point as being the centre of gravity - close to Mings' hand and what the VAR thought was the foot of Firmino.
That created the initial black offside line to Firmino, so when it was deleted, many have cried foul. (Remember, offside lines are not final until they are red and blue, this is the calculation stage.)
However, at that point the VAR noticed that Firmino's foot could just be seen through the legs of Mings. And this creates the true centre of gravity for the imaging software, not the first calculation.
This means the Firmino offside decision was re-calibrated based on the correct measurements to the attacking player's foot between Mings' legs.
Also worthing noting re: centre of gravity.
It's the position used to determine where the vertical projection of any part that is not touching the ground lands.
You first find this CoG, then cross a vertical line from the armpit (in this case) with a perpendicular one from the CoG.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I'm not talking about that part. I'm talking about when they moved the line from Firmino's armpit three times, switching the lines and settling gonna diagonal line from Firmino's armpit to the line they had switched around.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In tight instances, the lines will be moved until they're happy it's right.
As above, you perceiving it as diagonal doesn't make it so.
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 25 seconds ago
No you haven't TOOR, you haven't done that at all.
It's the very reason you can't offer up a reason as it is that the whole thing is ridiculous.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't read his mind so I don't know the reason.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, but you could step back and think about what you're saying.
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why. And no one has done anything about it.
TOOR witnessed real, live corruption and no one has looked into it further.
Staggering, isn't it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It happens. Referees have admitted to it. I read two retired referees saying they felt compelled to add more time on for United, due to Fergie going mad for example. It could also be a mistake. I remember Berbatov diving for United in the first minute or so against Liverpool and Webb giving the penalty. People laughed at my suggestion Webb got it wrong. He later admitted he got it wrong.
posted on 18/5/20
Oh come on TOOR - you surely can't equate a referee in the middle of a massive crowd feeling pressured vs a VAR official sat in a room with his team?
You are just digging your heels in because that's what you do.
You cannot just step back and admit that you might have got this wrong.
You're entitled to believe the offside was wrong.
But you're not entitled to claim as fact that the lines were wrong and that the official deliberately acted in a way that showed Firmino was offside, even though he knew he wasn't.
posted on 18/5/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 seconds ago
Only shocking if you're biased.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would Andy Gray, an Everton fan be biased towards Liverpool? Why did numerous TV stations across the world pick up on it and point it out? Surely they aren't biased?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They questioned it at the time of the incident, which is their job.
What they didn't do is conclude that the officials must be corrupt and to my knowledge, they haven't rubbished explanations that were subsequently presented.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, instead they said what I did,
------
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Thor (U22388)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 6 seconds ago
Only shocking if you're biased.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would Andy Gray, an Everton fan be biased towards Liverpool? Why did numerous TV stations across the world pick up on it and point it out? Surely they aren't biased?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They questioned it at the time of the incident, which is their job.
What they didn't do is conclude that the officials must be corrupt and to my knowledge, they haven't rubbished explanations that were subsequently presented.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, instead they said what I did,
------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Has been shown to be wrong.
Laugh away.
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 32 minutes ago
Oh come on TOOR - you surely can't equate a referee in the middle of a massive crowd feeling pressured vs a VAR official sat in a room with his team?
You are just digging your heels in because that's what you do.
You cannot just step back and admit that you might have got this wrong.
You're entitled to believe the offside was wrong.
But you're not entitled to claim as fact that the lines were wrong and that the official deliberately acted in a way that showed Firmino was offside, even though he knew he wasn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not equating it, I'm just saying it happens and gave you a couple of examples.
I do think it was factual as there is video evidence of it happening, where TV companies around the world called it out. It was on Sky the following morning also and they were going crazy about it. In fact Chris Kamara said:-
“I’m not happy with it, I’ll be 100% honest with you,”
“In my opinion, this is made up, this has been made up by somebody at Stockley Park who’s decided they don’t want this to be a goal, and that is my opinion, and that is my honest opinion.
“From the naked eye you don’t need that calibration of dots or whatever to tell you, look at Tyrone Mings’ knee, Firmino is onside, right.
“So you look at the yellow line and there’s a black line there as well. So they’ve done that there - that tells you that he was onside.
“So they change it around now to make it that Firmino is the black line and Tyrone Mings is the yellow line, as you can see now."
“But the line that comes up towards Firmino isn’t straight - that’s not a straight line, that’s an angled line," he added.
“I put a piece of paper to it this morning haven’t I and I showed you - that is not a straight line.
“Get your rulers out, get your spirit level out. That red line is not a straight line.
“Now, somebody has decided to do that and I think they should be outed because that is not offside for me.
“That’s why it’s not a straight line, look at that paper, look how angled it is, that’s not a straight line.”
So if you're trying to make it out that it's a biased opinion, are Chris Kamara and Andy Gray, biased towards Liverpool?
posted on 18/5/20
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why.
------
We know why and its generally accepted that VAR refs will try not to interfere with the on field decision and this is exactly what happened here. Corruptly using diagonal lines to justify the on field decision and cheating a team out of a valid goal.
And no one has done anything about it.
-----
What would you suggest be done about it?
posted on 18/5/20
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 32 minutes ago
Oh come on TOOR - you surely can't equate a referee in the middle of a massive crowd feeling pressured vs a VAR official sat in a room with his team?
You are just digging your heels in because that's what you do.
You cannot just step back and admit that you might have got this wrong.
You're entitled to believe the offside was wrong.
But you're not entitled to claim as fact that the lines were wrong and that the official deliberately acted in a way that showed Firmino was offside, even though he knew he wasn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not equating it, I'm just saying it happens and gave you a couple of examples.
I do think it was factual as there is video evidence of it happening, where TV companies around the world called it out. It was on Sky the following morning also and they were going crazy about it. In fact Chris Kamara said:-
“I’m not happy with it, I’ll be 100% honest with you,”
“In my opinion, this is made up, this has been made up by somebody at Stockley Park who’s decided they don’t want this to be a goal, and that is my opinion, and that is my honest opinion.
“From the naked eye you don’t need that calibration of dots or whatever to tell you, look at Tyrone Mings’ knee, Firmino is onside, right.
“So you look at the yellow line and there’s a black line there as well. So they’ve done that there - that tells you that he was onside.
“So they change it around now to make it that Firmino is the black line and Tyrone Mings is the yellow line, as you can see now."
“But the line that comes up towards Firmino isn’t straight - that’s not a straight line, that’s an angled line," he added.
“I put a piece of paper to it this morning haven’t I and I showed you - that is not a straight line.
“Get your rulers out, get your spirit level out. That red line is not a straight line.
“Now, somebody has decided to do that and I think they should be outed because that is not offside for me.
“That’s why it’s not a straight line, look at that paper, look how angled it is, that’s not a straight line.”
So if you're trying to make it out that it's a biased opinion, are Chris Kamara and Andy Gray, biased towards Liverpool?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All this shows is people who don't understand how the technology works.
I posted up why the line won't necessarily look straight.
You're proving my point for me.
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Thor (U22388)
posted 1 minute ago
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why.
------
We know why and its generally accepted that VAR refs will try not to interfere with the on field decision and this is exactly what happened here. Corruptly using diagonal lines to justify the on field decision and cheating a team out of a valid goal.
And no one has done anything about it.
-----
What would you suggest be done about it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd suggest if there's a chance that an official has deliberately deceived the on pitch referee then an investigation takes place.
Funny how no one else is mentioning this apparent corruption though, isn't it?
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by There'sOnlyOneRed's (U1721)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 32 minutes ago
Oh come on TOOR - you surely can't equate a referee in the middle of a massive crowd feeling pressured vs a VAR official sat in a room with his team?
You are just digging your heels in because that's what you do.
You cannot just step back and admit that you might have got this wrong.
You're entitled to believe the offside was wrong.
But you're not entitled to claim as fact that the lines were wrong and that the official deliberately acted in a way that showed Firmino was offside, even though he knew he wasn't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not equating it, I'm just saying it happens and gave you a couple of examples.
I do think it was factual as there is video evidence of it happening, where TV companies around the world called it out. It was on Sky the following morning also and they were going crazy about it. In fact Chris Kamara said:-
“I’m not happy with it, I’ll be 100% honest with you,”
“In my opinion, this is made up, this has been made up by somebody at Stockley Park who’s decided they don’t want this to be a goal, and that is my opinion, and that is my honest opinion.
“From the naked eye you don’t need that calibration of dots or whatever to tell you, look at Tyrone Mings’ knee, Firmino is onside, right.
“So you look at the yellow line and there’s a black line there as well. So they’ve done that there - that tells you that he was onside.
“So they change it around now to make it that Firmino is the black line and Tyrone Mings is the yellow line, as you can see now."
“But the line that comes up towards Firmino isn’t straight - that’s not a straight line, that’s an angled line," he added.
“I put a piece of paper to it this morning haven’t I and I showed you - that is not a straight line.
“Get your rulers out, get your spirit level out. That red line is not a straight line.
“Now, somebody has decided to do that and I think they should be outed because that is not offside for me.
“That’s why it’s not a straight line, look at that paper, look how angled it is, that’s not a straight line.”
So if you're trying to make it out that it's a biased opinion, are Chris Kamara and Andy Gray, biased towards Liverpool?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
All this shows is people who don't understand how the technology works.
I posted up why the line won't necessarily look straight.
You're proving my point for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it shows people being outraged by an incorrect decision were they 'made' a player offside, who you can clearly see is onside.
But we've been over this, we're not going to agree.
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 33 seconds ago
comment by Thor (U22388)
posted 1 minute ago
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why.
------
We know why and its generally accepted that VAR refs will try not to interfere with the on field decision and this is exactly what happened here. Corruptly using diagonal lines to justify the on field decision and cheating a team out of a valid goal.
And no one has done anything about it.
-----
What would you suggest be done about it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd suggest if there's a chance that an official has deliberately deceived the on pitch referee then an investigation takes place.
-------
Perhaps you should bump th e issue to authorities. Personally I don't see how it's deception of an official, mainly because it isn't. I also don't see why it should warrant an investigation, mainly because it doesn't. It only requires that they be re-instructed.
Funny how no one else is mentioning this apparent corruption though, isn't it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really, it was pointed out by many as you've been told.
posted on 18/5/20
comment by Winston (U16525)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Thor (U22388)
posted 1 minute ago
An official cheated - actually cheated - but we don't know why.
------
We know why and its generally accepted that VAR refs will try not to interfere with the on field decision and this is exactly what happened here. Corruptly using diagonal lines to justify the on field decision and cheating a team out of a valid goal.
And no one has done anything about it.
-----
What would you suggest be done about it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd suggest if there's a chance that an official has deliberately deceived the on pitch referee then an investigation takes place.
Funny how no one else is mentioning this apparent corruption though, isn't it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you talking about noone else?
It was all over the world. TV stations and pundits disagreeing with it. Qatar, Australia, USA, South Africa, UK.
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