None of the players you’ve listed makes an error leading to a goal every other game.
And the Maguire and Lindelof partnership has had matchwinning games this season.
There might not be many CBs around at the moment that you’d put up at the level of those you’ve listed in your first paragraph, but you’re talking about some of the greats of the last 30 years of the game there.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
There's also not too many Makeleles or Alessio Tacchinardis in the game today, to do most of the hard disruptive work in midfield.
I'd be very interested to see how Nesta would cope with a midfield of Xhaka and Ceballos waving everyone through.
Ramos is very good, but he holds the world record for yellow and red cards in the history of the game. Surely discipline comes into it? He let his team down by getting himself sent off again late in the 1st leg.
Unfortunately the standards of defending today seem to focus more on being able to pass the ball than actually defending. If you can do both you're great. If you can defend but can't play out from the back you're limited and if you can pass the ball but can't defend you're Lindelof and Maguire
The game has evolved since then, most successful teams defend from the front i.e pressing the opposition on their half, but teams that are able to beat the press most often require defenders to be comfortable with the ball. Defending is seen as an art. You are required to do more than just defend.
It's why liv2are bang on for title again...VVD..MATIP..GOMEZ...very very very good defenders who actually defend. Plus in front the 3 mfs all work like dogs to protect them.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Ramos is an o/s defender, comfortable with the ball, and most importantly, he is a leader. On top of that his goal scoring for a defender is actually ridiculous (12 goals he scored this season ?)
comment by comic book guy (U17816)
posted 45 seconds ago
Unfortunately the standards of defending today seem to focus more on being able to pass the ball than actually defending. If you can do both you're great. If you can defend but can't play out from the back you're limitedand if you can pass the ball but can't defend you're Lindelof and Maguire
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Both Lindelof and Maguire can defend. Many defenders can defend. And the ball playing defenders aren't a new thing. It just didn't have as much focus as it does now and that's partly due to how well Barcelona and Spain dominated 8-12 years ago.
The defenders the OP mentioned that the current lot can't compare to all had bad games. Even the coverage of players is uneven. Ederson made quite a few mistakes this season yet face little scrutiny compared to De Gea (though I suspect that has now more to do with Henderson, who is English, waiting in the wings).
comment by Blue Aye (U20893)
posted 15 minutes ago
Ramos is an o/s defender, comfortable with the ball, and most importantly, he is a leader. On top of that his goal scoring for a defender is actually ridiculous (12 goals he scored this season ?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
11 La Liga goals this season (6 penalties though).
comment by Bailly_Lindelof_ (U16290)
posted 32 minutes ago
Ramos is very good, but he holds the world record for yellow and red cards in the history of the game. Surely discipline comes into it? He let his team down by getting himself sent off again late in the 1st leg.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramos does let the team down but I've watched loads of Madrid games during the past 6-7 years and I'd guess that almost half of his red cards wouldnt be given in the PL or German league.
Hes also never been sent off for Spain which for a supposed thug of a player is a great achievement.
Some of the yellow cards you see given in Spain are truly mind boggling.
comment by comic book guy (U17816)
posted 33 minutes ago
Unfortunately the standards of defending today seem to focus more on being able to pass the ball than actually defending. If you can do both you're great. If you can defend but can't play out from the back you're limitedand if you can pass the ball but can't defend you're Lindelof and Maguire
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lindelof and Maguire can’t defend?
OK then
comment by Gillespie Road. (U18361)
posted 48 minutes ago
There's also not too many Makeleles or Alessio Tacchinardis in the game today, to do most of the hard disruptive work in midfield.
I'd be very interested to see how Nesta would cope with a midfield of Xhaka and Ceballos waving everyone through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the thing, the game has changed.
GKs are being asked to do more than just stopping the ball crossing the line, the same way CBs are being asked more than just defending unfortunately.
So no doubt that the CBs of the old days the OP has listed were world class but would they have been at the same level if they were asked to also start the attacks?
“ None of the players you’ve listed makes an error leading to a goal every other game”
Lindelof gives away a goal scoring chance away per game I reckon.
comment by Got_Better (U6241)
posted 43 minutes ago
It's why liv2are bang on for title again...VVD..MATIP..GOMEZ...very very very good defenders who actually defend. Plus in front the 3 mfs all work like dogs to protect them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To beat Liverpool you have to first match them for effort. Something Fergie installed in all his great teams.
Changes to both tactics and rules (in particular the offside rule) need to be taken into account. Defending now is completely different to what it used to be.
Does it really matter when you are playing a high line like Bayern, City, Liverpool?
There are so many aspects to defending in the modern game but the most important one is defending as a unit. That’s all that matters. Same applies to attack.
For example I don’t think Trent or Robertson are particularly good defenders, in the sense of an Ashly Cole or even Wan Bisaka. neither is Gomez to be fair. Van Dijk and Allison are world class, the best in their positions so what they have done is they have grabbed 2 of the worlds best attacking fullbacks and along van Dijk is a quick CB in Gomez who he can tell where to be and they have marshaled Liverpool into a good defence.
They play as a unit and Trent and Robertson don’t make any unforced errors. If Trent is beaten he is smart enough to expect van Dijk or Gomez to cover for him.
Unlike say city or arsenal full backs and defenders who make the most bone head unforced errors at the top level. I have used them as an example as I watch them more often but I’m sure they are other examples.
The other aspect is the protection in front of the defence which talks to the earlier point, defending as a unit.
Football comes down to the style of play. Bayern has one good footballer Alaba, wouldn’t call him a good defender and some very good balanced attacking fullbacks but because they are so good in the final third we don’t need to even discuss the defending aspect at all.
Let’s see how they play against the Lyon low block, maybe their defenders may need to turn up but I doubt it.
When I look to a defender for qualities is pace to play 1v1 in open space. They should be tall to win the headers and playing out from the back.
VVD and Varane have those qualities. Soyuncu and Upamecano have also those but lack the experience.
Lot of respect for fergie team and thats hard to say, but he knew the fame was team..team..team...and nothing else. Everyone 100% all.the time. For me it's why utd won't get anywhere with pogba at the club.
Workwise he's your massive weak link and fergie was 100% correct in getting him out.
The quality of footballers as a whole has dropped in my opinion. There’s not many elite or world class players around compared to the late 90’s and 00’s. Also the reason why teams like Juve and City are losing to lesser opposition
comment by The Mane Man - PL CHAMPIONS (U19731)
posted 5 minutes ago
When I look to a defender for qualities is pace to play 1v1 in open space. They should be tall to win the headers and playing out from the back.
VVD and Varane have those qualities. Soyuncu and Upamecano have also those but lack the experience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Height is a nice to have for defenders just as you looking handsome is a nice to have fur your bird.
The game has changed, the only position in world football where height is kinda important is goal keeper.
The rest it’s about ability first. Then A football Brain.
Although pace is a very huge an important compound European football I would take Technical ability And a good football brain over height, pace and athleticism
Xavi, Iniesta and David Silva have proved that over the last few years
comment by Bailly_Lindelof_ (U16290)
posted 1 hour, 15 minutes ago
Ramos is very good, but he holds the world record for yellow and red cards in the history of the game. Surely discipline comes into it? He let his team down by getting himself sent off again late in the 1st leg.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats his style, and it serves him and his club well for the most part.
Also whilst im here, you have to surely see the games come a long way, its improved year on year, its not as simple as it used to be. Teams and players run faster, harder, more shots more goals more everything. Teams play higher lines, press harder, less cover for a lot of CBs now and a lot more than just defending expected of them and GKs. Theres just too much to factor in. The top CBs 20 years ago trying to fit into modern systems could well find it a lot harder to defend too.
comment by Got_Better (U6241)
posted 9 minutes ago
Lot of respect for fergie team and thats hard to say, but he knew the fame was team..team..team...and nothing else. Everyone 100% all.the time. For me it's why utd won't get anywhere with pogba at the club.
Workwise he's your massive weak link and fergie was 100% correct in getting him out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did Fergie really get him out or is GB talking through his arze?
Ronaldo didn’t track back if I remember correctly. United are not struggling because of Pogba. More to football than such simplistic bone headed views
Sign in if you want to comment
Remember when CBs could actually defend?
Page 1 of 2
posted on 16/8/20
None of the players you’ve listed makes an error leading to a goal every other game.
And the Maguire and Lindelof partnership has had matchwinning games this season.
There might not be many CBs around at the moment that you’d put up at the level of those you’ve listed in your first paragraph, but you’re talking about some of the greats of the last 30 years of the game there.
posted on 16/8/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 16/8/20
There's also not too many Makeleles or Alessio Tacchinardis in the game today, to do most of the hard disruptive work in midfield.
I'd be very interested to see how Nesta would cope with a midfield of Xhaka and Ceballos waving everyone through.
posted on 16/8/20
Ramos is very good, but he holds the world record for yellow and red cards in the history of the game. Surely discipline comes into it? He let his team down by getting himself sent off again late in the 1st leg.
posted on 16/8/20
Unfortunately the standards of defending today seem to focus more on being able to pass the ball than actually defending. If you can do both you're great. If you can defend but can't play out from the back you're limited and if you can pass the ball but can't defend you're Lindelof and Maguire
posted on 16/8/20
The game has evolved since then, most successful teams defend from the front i.e pressing the opposition on their half, but teams that are able to beat the press most often require defenders to be comfortable with the ball. Defending is seen as an art. You are required to do more than just defend.
posted on 16/8/20
It's why liv2are bang on for title again...VVD..MATIP..GOMEZ...very very very good defenders who actually defend. Plus in front the 3 mfs all work like dogs to protect them.
posted on 16/8/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 16/8/20
Ramos is an o/s defender, comfortable with the ball, and most importantly, he is a leader. On top of that his goal scoring for a defender is actually ridiculous (12 goals he scored this season ?)
posted on 16/8/20
comment by comic book guy (U17816)
posted 45 seconds ago
Unfortunately the standards of defending today seem to focus more on being able to pass the ball than actually defending. If you can do both you're great. If you can defend but can't play out from the back you're limitedand if you can pass the ball but can't defend you're Lindelof and Maguire
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Both Lindelof and Maguire can defend. Many defenders can defend. And the ball playing defenders aren't a new thing. It just didn't have as much focus as it does now and that's partly due to how well Barcelona and Spain dominated 8-12 years ago.
The defenders the OP mentioned that the current lot can't compare to all had bad games. Even the coverage of players is uneven. Ederson made quite a few mistakes this season yet face little scrutiny compared to De Gea (though I suspect that has now more to do with Henderson, who is English, waiting in the wings).
posted on 16/8/20
comment by Blue Aye (U20893)
posted 15 minutes ago
Ramos is an o/s defender, comfortable with the ball, and most importantly, he is a leader. On top of that his goal scoring for a defender is actually ridiculous (12 goals he scored this season ?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
11 La Liga goals this season (6 penalties though).
posted on 16/8/20
comment by Bailly_Lindelof_ (U16290)
posted 32 minutes ago
Ramos is very good, but he holds the world record for yellow and red cards in the history of the game. Surely discipline comes into it? He let his team down by getting himself sent off again late in the 1st leg.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramos does let the team down but I've watched loads of Madrid games during the past 6-7 years and I'd guess that almost half of his red cards wouldnt be given in the PL or German league.
Hes also never been sent off for Spain which for a supposed thug of a player is a great achievement.
Some of the yellow cards you see given in Spain are truly mind boggling.
posted on 16/8/20
comment by comic book guy (U17816)
posted 33 minutes ago
Unfortunately the standards of defending today seem to focus more on being able to pass the ball than actually defending. If you can do both you're great. If you can defend but can't play out from the back you're limitedand if you can pass the ball but can't defend you're Lindelof and Maguire
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lindelof and Maguire can’t defend?
OK then
posted on 16/8/20
comment by Gillespie Road. (U18361)
posted 48 minutes ago
There's also not too many Makeleles or Alessio Tacchinardis in the game today, to do most of the hard disruptive work in midfield.
I'd be very interested to see how Nesta would cope with a midfield of Xhaka and Ceballos waving everyone through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the thing, the game has changed.
GKs are being asked to do more than just stopping the ball crossing the line, the same way CBs are being asked more than just defending unfortunately.
So no doubt that the CBs of the old days the OP has listed were world class but would they have been at the same level if they were asked to also start the attacks?
posted on 16/8/20
“ None of the players you’ve listed makes an error leading to a goal every other game”
Lindelof gives away a goal scoring chance away per game I reckon.
posted on 16/8/20
comment by Got_Better (U6241)
posted 43 minutes ago
It's why liv2are bang on for title again...VVD..MATIP..GOMEZ...very very very good defenders who actually defend. Plus in front the 3 mfs all work like dogs to protect them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To beat Liverpool you have to first match them for effort. Something Fergie installed in all his great teams.
posted on 16/8/20
Changes to both tactics and rules (in particular the offside rule) need to be taken into account. Defending now is completely different to what it used to be.
posted on 16/8/20
Does it really matter when you are playing a high line like Bayern, City, Liverpool?
There are so many aspects to defending in the modern game but the most important one is defending as a unit. That’s all that matters. Same applies to attack.
For example I don’t think Trent or Robertson are particularly good defenders, in the sense of an Ashly Cole or even Wan Bisaka. neither is Gomez to be fair. Van Dijk and Allison are world class, the best in their positions so what they have done is they have grabbed 2 of the worlds best attacking fullbacks and along van Dijk is a quick CB in Gomez who he can tell where to be and they have marshaled Liverpool into a good defence.
They play as a unit and Trent and Robertson don’t make any unforced errors. If Trent is beaten he is smart enough to expect van Dijk or Gomez to cover for him.
Unlike say city or arsenal full backs and defenders who make the most bone head unforced errors at the top level. I have used them as an example as I watch them more often but I’m sure they are other examples.
The other aspect is the protection in front of the defence which talks to the earlier point, defending as a unit.
Football comes down to the style of play. Bayern has one good footballer Alaba, wouldn’t call him a good defender and some very good balanced attacking fullbacks but because they are so good in the final third we don’t need to even discuss the defending aspect at all.
Let’s see how they play against the Lyon low block, maybe their defenders may need to turn up but I doubt it.
posted on 16/8/20
When I look to a defender for qualities is pace to play 1v1 in open space. They should be tall to win the headers and playing out from the back.
VVD and Varane have those qualities. Soyuncu and Upamecano have also those but lack the experience.
posted on 16/8/20
Lot of respect for fergie team and thats hard to say, but he knew the fame was team..team..team...and nothing else. Everyone 100% all.the time. For me it's why utd won't get anywhere with pogba at the club.
Workwise he's your massive weak link and fergie was 100% correct in getting him out.
posted on 16/8/20
The quality of footballers as a whole has dropped in my opinion. There’s not many elite or world class players around compared to the late 90’s and 00’s. Also the reason why teams like Juve and City are losing to lesser opposition
posted on 16/8/20
comment by The Mane Man - PL CHAMPIONS (U19731)
posted 5 minutes ago
When I look to a defender for qualities is pace to play 1v1 in open space. They should be tall to win the headers and playing out from the back.
VVD and Varane have those qualities. Soyuncu and Upamecano have also those but lack the experience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Height is a nice to have for defenders just as you looking handsome is a nice to have fur your bird.
The game has changed, the only position in world football where height is kinda important is goal keeper.
The rest it’s about ability first. Then A football Brain.
Although pace is a very huge an important compound European football I would take Technical ability And a good football brain over height, pace and athleticism
posted on 16/8/20
Xavi, Iniesta and David Silva have proved that over the last few years
posted on 16/8/20
comment by Bailly_Lindelof_ (U16290)
posted 1 hour, 15 minutes ago
Ramos is very good, but he holds the world record for yellow and red cards in the history of the game. Surely discipline comes into it? He let his team down by getting himself sent off again late in the 1st leg.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats his style, and it serves him and his club well for the most part.
Also whilst im here, you have to surely see the games come a long way, its improved year on year, its not as simple as it used to be. Teams and players run faster, harder, more shots more goals more everything. Teams play higher lines, press harder, less cover for a lot of CBs now and a lot more than just defending expected of them and GKs. Theres just too much to factor in. The top CBs 20 years ago trying to fit into modern systems could well find it a lot harder to defend too.
posted on 16/8/20
comment by Got_Better (U6241)
posted 9 minutes ago
Lot of respect for fergie team and thats hard to say, but he knew the fame was team..team..team...and nothing else. Everyone 100% all.the time. For me it's why utd won't get anywhere with pogba at the club.
Workwise he's your massive weak link and fergie was 100% correct in getting him out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did Fergie really get him out or is GB talking through his arze?
Ronaldo didn’t track back if I remember correctly. United are not struggling because of Pogba. More to football than such simplistic bone headed views
Page 1 of 2