Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Positional discipline, interceptions and ball winning isn’t something I’d say Liverpool’s midfield lacks. It’s what they excel at, and they’re probably the most well drilled midfield in world football in this regard (Klopp’s brilliant at doing this with his players).
Their issues have always been more about what they do with the ball, rather than without it. Hojbjerg won’t offer them any more with the ball than what they already have, it any he’d offer less. It’s why they bought Thiago (who interestingly has had ball winning numbers up there with all the best dm’s over the last few years).
comment by rosso - it’s not good enough to be right; you have to be effective (U17054)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 32 minutes ago
Wouldn't say it was well utilised as we didn't win and actually should have lost as well, there is a reason why we haven't seen it since.
I think it's hard to compare both teams really because of the contrast in style. For example, Hojbjerg stands out in Spurs' team, but would not fit into Liverpool's team as he wouldn't get in ahead of Fabinho, Henderson or Wijnaldum in the Liverpool set up.
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On form, I think Hojbjerg walks into Liverpool’s midfield.
He’s exactly what they needed against Fulham, who the Liverpool midfield couldn’t contain at the weekend. Fulham completed eleven dribbles, and had a lot of opportunities (relative to the amount of possession they had) from through balls.
Hojbjerg is going to deliver you positional discipline, and from that, interceptions and ball winning tackles. I’d have him over Wijnaldum right now without thinking about it.
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The midfielder you're talking about (Fabinho) who fits that criteria that would have supported the midfield massively in that role was playing at CB due to a shortage in that position. I wish we could have 2 Fabinho's, but we just don't.
I'd have Fab over PEH for sure as well.
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by rosso - it’s not good enough to be right; you have to be effective (U17054)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 32 minutes ago
Wouldn't say it was well utilised as we didn't win and actually should have lost as well, there is a reason why we haven't seen it since.
I think it's hard to compare both teams really because of the contrast in style. For example, Hojbjerg stands out in Spurs' team, but would not fit into Liverpool's team as he wouldn't get in ahead of Fabinho, Henderson or Wijnaldum in the Liverpool set up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
On form, I think Hojbjerg walks into Liverpool’s midfield.
He’s exactly what they needed against Fulham, who the Liverpool midfield couldn’t contain at the weekend. Fulham completed eleven dribbles, and had a lot of opportunities (relative to the amount of possession they had) from through balls.
Hojbjerg is going to deliver you positional discipline, and from that, interceptions and ball winning tackles. I’d have him over Wijnaldum right now without thinking about it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The midfielder you're talking about (Fabinho) who fits that criteria that would have supported the midfield massively in that role was playing at CB due to a shortage in that position. I wish we could have 2 Fabinho's, but we just don't.
I'd have Fab over PEH for sure as well.
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Yeah, fair enough. Would have been a different game at the weekend with Fabinho in midfield, and it’s a fair point to make that with Fabinho in there, you don’t need Hojbjerg.
Right now - with Fabinho confined to the back four - surely Hojbjerg would play though?
Wijnaldum will always do a good job of recycling the ball and retaining possession because his passing is that good and he’s careful with the ball; but I don’t see what else he’s doing right now. He doesn’t create anything and he isn’t ball-winning or shielding like he has in years past.
Liverpool are conceding a lot of goals from open play. I wouldn’t be as concerned if I were Klopp if all of these opposition goals were coming from set pieces or penalties or even counter attacks.
But they’re coming from the midfield failing to cut out passes between the lines, failing to pick up runs off them, failing to make tackles... Liverpool are on track to concede *twice as many* goals from open play as last season at the current rate. 20 all season last season; 12 already *discounting counterattacks* so far this season. That’s as many as the likes of Palace and West Ham, both of which play without the ball.
The defence needs better protection.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Liverpool statistically last season conceded less when Henderson played as the 6 as opposed to Fabinho. Maybe it’s something to do with Liverpool’s style that they defend better with high work rate midfielders than ‘sitters’ to categorise both.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
The stat was that fewer goals were conceded and more clean sheets were kept when Hendo played the 6 and Fabinho was absent than the other way around (from memory). Obvs there are a lot of variables
Imagine that’s slightly inflated by Liverpool’s defence going to shiiiiit once they’d basically won the league. And the sample size would be small.
Well Wijnaldum’s figures are painting a different picture GT: per game so far this season (PL and CL) his aerials won are down, tackles attempted down, successful tackles down, clearances down, dribbled past up...
It’s a similar picture defensively for Henderson: aerials won down, tackles attempted down, successful tackles down, interceptions down, passes blocked down...
You can argue that teams are playing Liverpool differently, that team performance might be affecting individual performances, and that fatigue is probably a factor.
But again, just look at Fulham, particularly first half, this last weekend: Zambo breaking through the lines, Lookman breaking through the lines, Lookman and RLC playing Cavaleiro in repeatedly. I don’t think that happens so consistently last season.
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posted on 15/12/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/12/20
202
posted on 15/12/20
Positional discipline, interceptions and ball winning isn’t something I’d say Liverpool’s midfield lacks. It’s what they excel at, and they’re probably the most well drilled midfield in world football in this regard (Klopp’s brilliant at doing this with his players).
Their issues have always been more about what they do with the ball, rather than without it. Hojbjerg won’t offer them any more with the ball than what they already have, it any he’d offer less. It’s why they bought Thiago (who interestingly has had ball winning numbers up there with all the best dm’s over the last few years).
posted on 15/12/20
comment by rosso - it’s not good enough to be right; you have to be effective (U17054)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 32 minutes ago
Wouldn't say it was well utilised as we didn't win and actually should have lost as well, there is a reason why we haven't seen it since.
I think it's hard to compare both teams really because of the contrast in style. For example, Hojbjerg stands out in Spurs' team, but would not fit into Liverpool's team as he wouldn't get in ahead of Fabinho, Henderson or Wijnaldum in the Liverpool set up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
On form, I think Hojbjerg walks into Liverpool’s midfield.
He’s exactly what they needed against Fulham, who the Liverpool midfield couldn’t contain at the weekend. Fulham completed eleven dribbles, and had a lot of opportunities (relative to the amount of possession they had) from through balls.
Hojbjerg is going to deliver you positional discipline, and from that, interceptions and ball winning tackles. I’d have him over Wijnaldum right now without thinking about it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The midfielder you're talking about (Fabinho) who fits that criteria that would have supported the midfield massively in that role was playing at CB due to a shortage in that position. I wish we could have 2 Fabinho's, but we just don't.
I'd have Fab over PEH for sure as well.
posted on 15/12/20
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 1 hour, 7 minutes ago
comment by rosso - it’s not good enough to be right; you have to be effective (U17054)
posted 8 minutes ago
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 32 minutes ago
Wouldn't say it was well utilised as we didn't win and actually should have lost as well, there is a reason why we haven't seen it since.
I think it's hard to compare both teams really because of the contrast in style. For example, Hojbjerg stands out in Spurs' team, but would not fit into Liverpool's team as he wouldn't get in ahead of Fabinho, Henderson or Wijnaldum in the Liverpool set up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
On form, I think Hojbjerg walks into Liverpool’s midfield.
He’s exactly what they needed against Fulham, who the Liverpool midfield couldn’t contain at the weekend. Fulham completed eleven dribbles, and had a lot of opportunities (relative to the amount of possession they had) from through balls.
Hojbjerg is going to deliver you positional discipline, and from that, interceptions and ball winning tackles. I’d have him over Wijnaldum right now without thinking about it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The midfielder you're talking about (Fabinho) who fits that criteria that would have supported the midfield massively in that role was playing at CB due to a shortage in that position. I wish we could have 2 Fabinho's, but we just don't.
I'd have Fab over PEH for sure as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, fair enough. Would have been a different game at the weekend with Fabinho in midfield, and it’s a fair point to make that with Fabinho in there, you don’t need Hojbjerg.
Right now - with Fabinho confined to the back four - surely Hojbjerg would play though?
Wijnaldum will always do a good job of recycling the ball and retaining possession because his passing is that good and he’s careful with the ball; but I don’t see what else he’s doing right now. He doesn’t create anything and he isn’t ball-winning or shielding like he has in years past.
Liverpool are conceding a lot of goals from open play. I wouldn’t be as concerned if I were Klopp if all of these opposition goals were coming from set pieces or penalties or even counter attacks.
But they’re coming from the midfield failing to cut out passes between the lines, failing to pick up runs off them, failing to make tackles... Liverpool are on track to concede *twice as many* goals from open play as last season at the current rate. 20 all season last season; 12 already *discounting counterattacks* so far this season. That’s as many as the likes of Palace and West Ham, both of which play without the ball.
The defence needs better protection.
posted on 15/12/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/12/20
Liverpool statistically last season conceded less when Henderson played as the 6 as opposed to Fabinho. Maybe it’s something to do with Liverpool’s style that they defend better with high work rate midfielders than ‘sitters’ to categorise both.
posted on 15/12/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/12/20
The stat was that fewer goals were conceded and more clean sheets were kept when Hendo played the 6 and Fabinho was absent than the other way around (from memory). Obvs there are a lot of variables
posted on 15/12/20
Imagine that’s slightly inflated by Liverpool’s defence going to shiiiiit once they’d basically won the league. And the sample size would be small.
posted on 15/12/20
Well Wijnaldum’s figures are painting a different picture GT: per game so far this season (PL and CL) his aerials won are down, tackles attempted down, successful tackles down, clearances down, dribbled past up...
It’s a similar picture defensively for Henderson: aerials won down, tackles attempted down, successful tackles down, interceptions down, passes blocked down...
You can argue that teams are playing Liverpool differently, that team performance might be affecting individual performances, and that fatigue is probably a factor.
But again, just look at Fulham, particularly first half, this last weekend: Zambo breaking through the lines, Lookman breaking through the lines, Lookman and RLC playing Cavaleiro in repeatedly. I don’t think that happens so consistently last season.
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