Well according to Werner and Havertz there was. They have both mentioned that before signing they spoke at length with Frank about how Chelsea would play.
I wonder if that was on a 4 2 3 1 system though?
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 1 minute ago
Well according to Werner and Havertz there was. They have both mentioned that before signing they spoke at length with Frank about how Chelsea would play.
I wonder if that was on a 4 2 3 1 system though?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's my suspicion.
Perhaps that's why Lampard is so keen on Rice. Kante and Rice in the pivot with Pulisic, Havertz, Ziyech in front and Werner up top. If so, I think this season wont end well - we don't have the personnel for a two-man midfield as it stands.
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 26 seconds ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 1 minute ago
Well according to Werner and Havertz there was. They have both mentioned that before signing they spoke at length with Frank about how Chelsea would play.
I wonder if that was on a 4 2 3 1 system though?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's my suspicion.
Perhaps that's why Lampard is so keen on Rice. Kante and Rice in the pivot with Pulisic, Havertz, Ziyech in front and Werner up top. If so, I think this season wont end well - we don't have the personnel for a two-man midfield as it stands.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, the same thought has occurred to me. But, as I think you infer, we ain't getting Rice in January.
I think originally the plan was a 4-2-3-1 with Werner up front supported by Pulisic, Havertz and Ziyech
Even though Werner isn't a proper CF, having that support close to him in a fluid front 4 was probably meant to help in that regard.
But you've touched on the issues. That formation upsets the balance of the team. We looked more comfortable with 4-3-3 and the Germans haven't been good enough so far to justify that kind of sacrifice. If they up their game, we can try it again, but right now we can't justify building a team around them.
It also doesn't help that we haven't properly had the chance to actually play that front 4 together due to injuries. Given the injury proneness of the wingers, that alone probably means an opportunity is too rare for it to be our main system.
Maybe Havertz can work as an 8 in midfield, but again that's a problem in itself. Why are we saying 'maybe he can adapt' for a near club record signing. When you spend top dollar on a player, they should be the key player in the team and be used in their best role. Otherwise you're better off getting someone else who actually specialises in the role you want them to adapt to ie buy a proper CM instead. Or just keep Barkley.
The other issue is the simple fact that both have been different levels of disappointing so far. For all the talk of playing out of position, that's barely a good excuse given what we've seen on the pitch.
Werner often struggles to look like a top level footballer with passes/first touch. And even the one thing he's good at, goalscoring, has been very poor with lots of missed chances. Doesn't matter if he's starting out wide, than shouldn't affect his shooting ability.
And then there's Havertz who frequently loses possession and has shown a bit of creativity in the final third, but not enough. Those are things he should be doing better with, regardless of where he starts. Both can and probably will improve in that regard, but it doesn't tackle the long term issue already raised.
To summarise, yes there was a plan, but it was a big risk as Frank had never worked with these players before, and the squad wasn't used to the proposed new system (since it would only suit the two Germans). So it was far from guaranteed to work. Indeed, we can see now that it probably won't work...so we're stuck.
Werner will eventually play in the middle but it doesn't help that our wingers have been struggling to stay fit and to find form. It's the only reason Werner has played left wing as often as he has his season.
When that happens Werner will start scoring goals again with the likes of Ziyech and Pulisic supporting him.
Havertz is a bigger concern for me. He'll have to get used to playing No 8 and adapt his game so that he can actually be a useful midfielder who gets stuck in, tracks back, tackles etc otherwise he has no business playing in the PL quite frankly.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
A month ago watching Chelsea, I thought we were ticking,, apart from top few teams.
Now.....WTF, lol
Was quite clear that we required a natural left-footer in midfield to change the dynamics, Havertz is one of the best around in his age bracket fits the bill (subpar form or performances in the infancy of his Chelsea career doesn’t change that)
Bought three of them now (Chilwell, Ziyech, Havertz), lets see how they all work in conjunction with each other few months down the line...whenever they overcome their injuries or illness.
In fact...when was the last time a side that made major changes to their Goalkeeper, Centre-half, Left-back, Right-back, Midfield, Attack starting lineup WITHOUT PRE-SEASON and there was an instant performance impact + consistency into the season without a hitch?
Also consider much of the side is u23, still learning the ropes.
Patience is a virtue.
On Werner, he has gone through goal droughts like this at Leipzig. He'll pull through.
This is a character-building period for him.
comment by CSTP (U1453)
posted 5 hours, 38 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some good points here - especially this one:
"Maybe Havertz can work as an 8 in midfield, but again that's a problem in itself. Why are we saying 'maybe he can adapt' for a near club record signing. When you spend top dollar on a player, they should be the key player in the team and be used in their best role. Otherwise you're better off getting someone else who actually specialises in the role you want them to adapt to ie buy a proper CM instead. Or just keep Barkley."
It would be a serious waste of resources if we're trying to convert Havertz into a no8 after spending £70m on him based on performances as a no10/second striker. Someone like Aouar would've been a much better buy. Or even keeping Barkley as you suggested.
4-2-3-1 looks like the only formation that allows Werner and Havertz anywhere close to their favoured positions. But it's a formation that none of our current CM combinations fit and (as you said) is heavily dependent on having fit wingers. I fear Lampard was being somewhat naïve if he felt making the transition to this new system was realistic given the current set of players
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by CSTP (U1453)
posted 5 hours, 38 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some good points here - especially this one:
"Maybe Havertz can work as an 8 in midfield, but again that's a problem in itself. Why are we saying 'maybe he can adapt' for a near club record signing. When you spend top dollar on a player, they should be the key player in the team and be used in their best role. Otherwise you're better off getting someone else who actually specialises in the role you want them to adapt to ie buy a proper CM instead. Or just keep Barkley."
It would be a serious waste of resources if we're trying to convert Havertz into a no8 after spending £70m on him based on performances as a no10/second striker. Someone like Aouar would've been a much better buy. Or even keeping Barkley as you suggested.
4-2-3-1 looks like the only formation that allows Werner and Havertz anywhere close to their favoured positions. But it's a formation that none of our current CM combinations fit and (as you said) is heavily dependent on having fit wingers. I fear Lampard was being somewhat naïve if he felt making the transition to this new system was realistic given the current set of players
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Havertz has played as an 8 for BL, but I get your point.
comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
There was a plan. A fluid 4-2-3-1 with Havertz as a no.10. It just wasn’t a very good plan on many levels - first being Lampard completely disregarding what we learnt from last season with Mount being ineffective in wide positions, second how none of Kante, Kovacic nor Jorginho play well in a two.
Since ripping up this plan to play a 4-3-3 my feeling is that Werner may be the odd one out, although we haven’t even seen him play as a CF yet. Havertz is the player out of the two I’m not worried about. I feel a midfield three of him a CDM and Mount could be REALLY good.
Individually I do like the profile of players Lampard has gone for. Especially in comparison to previous managers. So for all of Lampard’s inexperience at squad building he has good taste at least. The problem is Lampard’s inability to develop a system. To fine-tune it to each player’s strengths. Our wingers swap positions ten times during the game but nothing changes because collectively not a lot is done in how we plan to attack as a team. So we resort to crossing time and time again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The lack of system is definitely a big worry. We scraped over the line last season by relying on Giroud's goals and Pulisic's individual brilliance. Unfortunately, in doing this, we abandoned our efforts to develop a definitive style of play. This meant that we were basically starting from ground zero this year in terms of formation/system etc. On top of that, we've changed half our starting XI. These two issues combined would be challenging for an experienced manager let alone a rookie like Lampard.
This season was always going to be one full of chopping and changing as Lampard's vision of how he wants the team to play matured. The problem now is that it doesn't seem to be maturing (if it's maturing at all) in the direction that allows our marquee summer signings to thrive.
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by CSTP (U1453)
posted 5 hours, 38 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some good points here - especially this one:
"Maybe Havertz can work as an 8 in midfield, but again that's a problem in itself. Why are we saying 'maybe he can adapt' for a near club record signing. When you spend top dollar on a player, they should be the key player in the team and be used in their best role. Otherwise you're better off getting someone else who actually specialises in the role you want them to adapt to ie buy a proper CM instead. Or just keep Barkley."
It would be a serious waste of resources if we're trying to convert Havertz into a no8 after spending £70m on him based on performances as a no10/second striker. Someone like Aouar would've been a much better buy. Or even keeping Barkley as you suggested.
4-2-3-1 looks like the only formation that allows Werner and Havertz anywhere close to their favoured positions. But it's a formation that none of our current CM combinations fit and (as you said) is heavily dependent on having fit wingers. I fear Lampard was being somewhat naïve if he felt making the transition to this new system was realistic given the current set of players
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Havertz has played as an 8 for BL, but I get your point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's true - but perhaps the challenges faced by a no8 in the Bundesliga are a bit different to those faced in the PL. Less time on the ball would be an obvious difference.
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by CSTP (U1453)
posted 5 hours, 38 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some good points here - especially this one:
"Maybe Havertz can work as an 8 in midfield, but again that's a problem in itself. Why are we saying 'maybe he can adapt' for a near club record signing. When you spend top dollar on a player, they should be the key player in the team and be used in their best role. Otherwise you're better off getting someone else who actually specialises in the role you want them to adapt to ie buy a proper CM instead. Or just keep Barkley."
It would be a serious waste of resources if we're trying to convert Havertz into a no8 after spending £70m on him based on performances as a no10/second striker. Someone like Aouar would've been a much better buy. Or even keeping Barkley as you suggested.
4-2-3-1 looks like the only formation that allows Werner and Havertz anywhere close to their favoured positions. But it's a formation that none of our current CM combinations fit and (as you said) is heavily dependent on having fit wingers. I fear Lampard was being somewhat naïve if he felt making the transition to this new system was realistic given the current set of players
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Havertz has played as an 8 for BL, but I get your point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's true - but perhaps the challenges faced by a no8 in the Bundesliga are a bit different to those faced in the PL. Less time on the ball would be an obvious difference.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Listening to Havertz speak about the PL that seems likely.
If there is one thing Havertz has been able to quickly establish, It's his understanding with Tammy & Hudson-Odoi.
Especially with the latter...they seem to be in-sync on the same wavelength more often than not, when there's a passing move between the lines.
Doesn't surprise me, Hudson-Odoi has proven that he can complement any player. All-rounder.
Need to rediscover that telepathic connection between Tammy & Havertz, was short-lived.
Get that going again and will be the beginnings of something special...
comment by Chelseamf™®© (U1677)
posted 47 minutes ago
If there is one thing Havertz has been able to quickly establish, It's his understanding with Tammy & Hudson-Odoi.
Especially with the latter...they seem to be in-sync on the same wavelength more often than not, when there's a passing move between the lines.
Doesn't surprise me, Hudson-Odoi has proven that he can complement any player. All-rounder.
Need to rediscover that telepathic connection between Tammy & Havertz, was short-lived.
Get that going again and will be the beginnings of something special...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How often have those 3 played together?
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Was there a plan for Werner and Havertz?
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posted on 27/12/20
Well according to Werner and Havertz there was. They have both mentioned that before signing they spoke at length with Frank about how Chelsea would play.
I wonder if that was on a 4 2 3 1 system though?
posted on 27/12/20
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 1 minute ago
Well according to Werner and Havertz there was. They have both mentioned that before signing they spoke at length with Frank about how Chelsea would play.
I wonder if that was on a 4 2 3 1 system though?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's my suspicion.
Perhaps that's why Lampard is so keen on Rice. Kante and Rice in the pivot with Pulisic, Havertz, Ziyech in front and Werner up top. If so, I think this season wont end well - we don't have the personnel for a two-man midfield as it stands.
posted on 27/12/20
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 26 seconds ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 1 minute ago
Well according to Werner and Havertz there was. They have both mentioned that before signing they spoke at length with Frank about how Chelsea would play.
I wonder if that was on a 4 2 3 1 system though?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's my suspicion.
Perhaps that's why Lampard is so keen on Rice. Kante and Rice in the pivot with Pulisic, Havertz, Ziyech in front and Werner up top. If so, I think this season wont end well - we don't have the personnel for a two-man midfield as it stands.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, the same thought has occurred to me. But, as I think you infer, we ain't getting Rice in January.
posted on 27/12/20
I think originally the plan was a 4-2-3-1 with Werner up front supported by Pulisic, Havertz and Ziyech
Even though Werner isn't a proper CF, having that support close to him in a fluid front 4 was probably meant to help in that regard.
But you've touched on the issues. That formation upsets the balance of the team. We looked more comfortable with 4-3-3 and the Germans haven't been good enough so far to justify that kind of sacrifice. If they up their game, we can try it again, but right now we can't justify building a team around them.
It also doesn't help that we haven't properly had the chance to actually play that front 4 together due to injuries. Given the injury proneness of the wingers, that alone probably means an opportunity is too rare for it to be our main system.
Maybe Havertz can work as an 8 in midfield, but again that's a problem in itself. Why are we saying 'maybe he can adapt' for a near club record signing. When you spend top dollar on a player, they should be the key player in the team and be used in their best role. Otherwise you're better off getting someone else who actually specialises in the role you want them to adapt to ie buy a proper CM instead. Or just keep Barkley.
The other issue is the simple fact that both have been different levels of disappointing so far. For all the talk of playing out of position, that's barely a good excuse given what we've seen on the pitch.
Werner often struggles to look like a top level footballer with passes/first touch. And even the one thing he's good at, goalscoring, has been very poor with lots of missed chances. Doesn't matter if he's starting out wide, than shouldn't affect his shooting ability.
And then there's Havertz who frequently loses possession and has shown a bit of creativity in the final third, but not enough. Those are things he should be doing better with, regardless of where he starts. Both can and probably will improve in that regard, but it doesn't tackle the long term issue already raised.
To summarise, yes there was a plan, but it was a big risk as Frank had never worked with these players before, and the squad wasn't used to the proposed new system (since it would only suit the two Germans). So it was far from guaranteed to work. Indeed, we can see now that it probably won't work...so we're stuck.
posted on 27/12/20
Werner will eventually play in the middle but it doesn't help that our wingers have been struggling to stay fit and to find form. It's the only reason Werner has played left wing as often as he has his season.
When that happens Werner will start scoring goals again with the likes of Ziyech and Pulisic supporting him.
Havertz is a bigger concern for me. He'll have to get used to playing No 8 and adapt his game so that he can actually be a useful midfielder who gets stuck in, tracks back, tackles etc otherwise he has no business playing in the PL quite frankly.
posted on 27/12/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 27/12/20
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 27/12/20
A month ago watching Chelsea, I thought we were ticking,, apart from top few teams.
Now.....WTF, lol
posted on 27/12/20
Was quite clear that we required a natural left-footer in midfield to change the dynamics, Havertz is one of the best around in his age bracket fits the bill (subpar form or performances in the infancy of his Chelsea career doesn’t change that)
posted on 27/12/20
Bought three of them now (Chilwell, Ziyech, Havertz), lets see how they all work in conjunction with each other few months down the line...whenever they overcome their injuries or illness.
In fact...when was the last time a side that made major changes to their Goalkeeper, Centre-half, Left-back, Right-back, Midfield, Attack starting lineup WITHOUT PRE-SEASON and there was an instant performance impact + consistency into the season without a hitch?
Also consider much of the side is u23, still learning the ropes.
Patience is a virtue.
On Werner, he has gone through goal droughts like this at Leipzig. He'll pull through.
This is a character-building period for him.
posted on 28/12/20
comment by CSTP (U1453)
posted 5 hours, 38 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some good points here - especially this one:
"Maybe Havertz can work as an 8 in midfield, but again that's a problem in itself. Why are we saying 'maybe he can adapt' for a near club record signing. When you spend top dollar on a player, they should be the key player in the team and be used in their best role. Otherwise you're better off getting someone else who actually specialises in the role you want them to adapt to ie buy a proper CM instead. Or just keep Barkley."
It would be a serious waste of resources if we're trying to convert Havertz into a no8 after spending £70m on him based on performances as a no10/second striker. Someone like Aouar would've been a much better buy. Or even keeping Barkley as you suggested.
4-2-3-1 looks like the only formation that allows Werner and Havertz anywhere close to their favoured positions. But it's a formation that none of our current CM combinations fit and (as you said) is heavily dependent on having fit wingers. I fear Lampard was being somewhat naïve if he felt making the transition to this new system was realistic given the current set of players
posted on 28/12/20
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by CSTP (U1453)
posted 5 hours, 38 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some good points here - especially this one:
"Maybe Havertz can work as an 8 in midfield, but again that's a problem in itself. Why are we saying 'maybe he can adapt' for a near club record signing. When you spend top dollar on a player, they should be the key player in the team and be used in their best role. Otherwise you're better off getting someone else who actually specialises in the role you want them to adapt to ie buy a proper CM instead. Or just keep Barkley."
It would be a serious waste of resources if we're trying to convert Havertz into a no8 after spending £70m on him based on performances as a no10/second striker. Someone like Aouar would've been a much better buy. Or even keeping Barkley as you suggested.
4-2-3-1 looks like the only formation that allows Werner and Havertz anywhere close to their favoured positions. But it's a formation that none of our current CM combinations fit and (as you said) is heavily dependent on having fit wingers. I fear Lampard was being somewhat naïve if he felt making the transition to this new system was realistic given the current set of players
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Havertz has played as an 8 for BL, but I get your point.
posted on 28/12/20
comment by Sideshow (U11809)
posted 5 hours, 12 minutes ago
There was a plan. A fluid 4-2-3-1 with Havertz as a no.10. It just wasn’t a very good plan on many levels - first being Lampard completely disregarding what we learnt from last season with Mount being ineffective in wide positions, second how none of Kante, Kovacic nor Jorginho play well in a two.
Since ripping up this plan to play a 4-3-3 my feeling is that Werner may be the odd one out, although we haven’t even seen him play as a CF yet. Havertz is the player out of the two I’m not worried about. I feel a midfield three of him a CDM and Mount could be REALLY good.
Individually I do like the profile of players Lampard has gone for. Especially in comparison to previous managers. So for all of Lampard’s inexperience at squad building he has good taste at least. The problem is Lampard’s inability to develop a system. To fine-tune it to each player’s strengths. Our wingers swap positions ten times during the game but nothing changes because collectively not a lot is done in how we plan to attack as a team. So we resort to crossing time and time again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The lack of system is definitely a big worry. We scraped over the line last season by relying on Giroud's goals and Pulisic's individual brilliance. Unfortunately, in doing this, we abandoned our efforts to develop a definitive style of play. This meant that we were basically starting from ground zero this year in terms of formation/system etc. On top of that, we've changed half our starting XI. These two issues combined would be challenging for an experienced manager let alone a rookie like Lampard.
This season was always going to be one full of chopping and changing as Lampard's vision of how he wants the team to play matured. The problem now is that it doesn't seem to be maturing (if it's maturing at all) in the direction that allows our marquee summer signings to thrive.
posted on 28/12/20
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by CSTP (U1453)
posted 5 hours, 38 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some good points here - especially this one:
"Maybe Havertz can work as an 8 in midfield, but again that's a problem in itself. Why are we saying 'maybe he can adapt' for a near club record signing. When you spend top dollar on a player, they should be the key player in the team and be used in their best role. Otherwise you're better off getting someone else who actually specialises in the role you want them to adapt to ie buy a proper CM instead. Or just keep Barkley."
It would be a serious waste of resources if we're trying to convert Havertz into a no8 after spending £70m on him based on performances as a no10/second striker. Someone like Aouar would've been a much better buy. Or even keeping Barkley as you suggested.
4-2-3-1 looks like the only formation that allows Werner and Havertz anywhere close to their favoured positions. But it's a formation that none of our current CM combinations fit and (as you said) is heavily dependent on having fit wingers. I fear Lampard was being somewhat naïve if he felt making the transition to this new system was realistic given the current set of players
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Havertz has played as an 8 for BL, but I get your point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's true - but perhaps the challenges faced by a no8 in the Bundesliga are a bit different to those faced in the PL. Less time on the ball would be an obvious difference.
posted on 28/12/20
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by SWTN - Judas is number 1 (U7916)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by minididi (U17584)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by CSTP (U1453)
posted 5 hours, 38 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some good points here - especially this one:
"Maybe Havertz can work as an 8 in midfield, but again that's a problem in itself. Why are we saying 'maybe he can adapt' for a near club record signing. When you spend top dollar on a player, they should be the key player in the team and be used in their best role. Otherwise you're better off getting someone else who actually specialises in the role you want them to adapt to ie buy a proper CM instead. Or just keep Barkley."
It would be a serious waste of resources if we're trying to convert Havertz into a no8 after spending £70m on him based on performances as a no10/second striker. Someone like Aouar would've been a much better buy. Or even keeping Barkley as you suggested.
4-2-3-1 looks like the only formation that allows Werner and Havertz anywhere close to their favoured positions. But it's a formation that none of our current CM combinations fit and (as you said) is heavily dependent on having fit wingers. I fear Lampard was being somewhat naïve if he felt making the transition to this new system was realistic given the current set of players
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Havertz has played as an 8 for BL, but I get your point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, that's true - but perhaps the challenges faced by a no8 in the Bundesliga are a bit different to those faced in the PL. Less time on the ball would be an obvious difference.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Listening to Havertz speak about the PL that seems likely.
posted on 28/12/20
If there is one thing Havertz has been able to quickly establish, It's his understanding with Tammy & Hudson-Odoi.
Especially with the latter...they seem to be in-sync on the same wavelength more often than not, when there's a passing move between the lines.
Doesn't surprise me, Hudson-Odoi has proven that he can complement any player. All-rounder.
Need to rediscover that telepathic connection between Tammy & Havertz, was short-lived.
Get that going again and will be the beginnings of something special...
posted on 28/12/20
comment by Chelseamf™®© (U1677)
posted 47 minutes ago
If there is one thing Havertz has been able to quickly establish, It's his understanding with Tammy & Hudson-Odoi.
Especially with the latter...they seem to be in-sync on the same wavelength more often than not, when there's a passing move between the lines.
Doesn't surprise me, Hudson-Odoi has proven that he can complement any player. All-rounder.
Need to rediscover that telepathic connection between Tammy & Havertz, was short-lived.
Get that going again and will be the beginnings of something special...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How often have those 3 played together?
posted on 28/12/20
Against Barnsley lol
Page 1 of 1