Of course you can go into the PL with 2 advanced midfielders in a 3, it just depends what you have behind them.
City do it with De Bryune and Gundogan or Foden or David Silva or Bernardo Silva in the past few seasons and don't very often get cut apart because they have a structure behind them.
It would be a dangerous game for this side though when the full backs essentially play in the forward line creating a 5 (when factoring the front 3), having a couple of midfielders advancing would just mean too many players in a too narrow area.
Coutinho and Thiago in a 3 could definitely work, but the system would have to be altered somewhat to do so I think.
Surely it doesnt really matter whether you thino he should be in the midfield 3 or the front 3. Surely the main point is that he could potentially do both depending on opposition? Surely the main draw is that he is a far more dangerous option to have than say either shaq or ox?
Hes an upgrade on both of them. As part of an overall squad hed be a superb addition.
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 2 hours, 21 minutes ago
Of course you can go into the PL with 2 advanced midfielders in a 3, it just depends what you have behind them.
City do it with De Bryune and Gundogan or Foden or David Silva or Bernardo Silva in the past few seasons and don't very often get cut apart because they have a structure behind them.
It would be a dangerous game for this side though when the full backs essentially play in the forward line creating a 5 (when factoring the front 3), having a couple of midfielders advancing would just mean too many players in a too narrow area.
Coutinho and Thiago in a 3 could definitely work, but the system would have to be altered somewhat to do so I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
at least you've made a sensible retort, not shouting NONSENSE lol.
You are quite right the approach of City is entirely different. The full backs operate eintrely different and the wide men too.
theres a world of difference between the half fit thiago and the likes of foden, debruyne, b.silva etc. Add in coutinho who was never a monster presser and I'm sorry but i can only see 7 men forward of the ball and two cbs and fabinho having to cope.
the fact is we miss henderson in midfield as much as fabinho as he adds balance. Keita actually plays reasonably well at LCM as he can play high but also make interceptions et, I still have not see us trying ketia and thaigo in the same team.
the system would indeed need to be much changed to enable it.
It might actually suite trent for example to effectively sit into a right midfield slot but it wouldn't suit robertson. It wouldn't suite salah either to sit wider to enable thiago and coutinho to use the spaces.
Probabaly wouldn't suite firmino either frankly.
At our very best we pressed high and looked for fast ball over the top to salah or mane
We had fabinho sitting but henderson and wijnaldum who had the mentality to go box to box and do the work as well as make the extra body.
With trent and roberston high and wide thats really where the creativity came from with the front 3.
A lot of the midfielders, such as Henderson and Wijnaldum, would often drop into a full back/wing back area during the build up phase when the full backs pushed on to create the width as the forward came inside.
Thiago could be similar to Wijnaldum, dropping into those areas whereas Coutinho could operate strictly as a No.10 where he can play between the lines and can give a different outlet rather than just a long ball in behind or big switches of play from full back to full back.
Coutinho as a 10 could certainly give the opposition more to think about. But out of Fabinho, Henderson and Thiago, who do you drop?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 59 minutes ago
comment by moreinjuredthanowen (U9641)
posted 2 hours, 47 minutes ago
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 2 hours, 21 minutes ago
Of course you can go into the PL with 2 advanced midfielders in a 3, it just depends what you have behind them.
City do it with De Bryune and Gundogan or Foden or David Silva or Bernardo Silva in the past few seasons and don't very often get cut apart because they have a structure behind them.
It would be a dangerous game for this side though when the full backs essentially play in the forward line creating a 5 (when factoring the front 3), having a couple of midfielders advancing would just mean too many players in a too narrow area.
Coutinho and Thiago in a 3 could definitely work, but the system would have to be altered somewhat to do so I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
at least you've made a sensible retort, not shouting NONSENSE lol.
You are quite right the approach of City is entirely different. The full backs operate eintrely different and the wide men too.
theres a world of difference between the half fit thiago and the likes of foden, debruyne, b.silva etc. Add in coutinho who was never a monster presser and I'm sorry but i can only see 7 men forward of the ball and two cbs and fabinho having to cope.
the fact is we miss henderson in midfield as much as fabinho as he adds balance. Keita actually plays reasonably well at LCM as he can play high but also make interceptions et, I still have not see us trying ketia and thaigo in the same team.
the system would indeed need to be much changed to enable it.
It might actually suite trent for example to effectively sit into a right midfield slot but it wouldn't suit robertson. It wouldn't suite salah either to sit wider to enable thiago and coutinho to use the spaces.
Probabaly wouldn't suite firmino either frankly.
At our very best we pressed high and looked for fast ball over the top to salah or mane
We had fabinho sitting but henderson and wijnaldum who had the mentality to go box to box and do the work as well as make the extra body.
With trent and roberston high and wide thats really where the creativity came from with the front 3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I didn't shout to start with, so quite why you felt the need to put it in capitals I have no idea....anyway, the one word answer is pretty much all the post deserved. We have Got Better and others who spout nonsense on here, but I don't think there is a poster on this site quite so sure of themselves but who get so much wrong in terms of tactical understanding than you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been doing the ignore, rather than attack tactic for a while now with people who talk nonsense and therefore found I make very few comments. Coutinho can't play with Thiago
Coutinho played 40 games for Bayern. 30 of which were with Thiago playing in the same game. Seven of his 40 games were wide. Some we can safely assume the huge majority were with Thiago in midfield. Not that anybody with any understanding of football would need the stats to tell you this.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
I swear some the opinions are so lazy
Coutinho was brilliant under klopp and didnt play with Van Dijk/Alisson. It was defensively where we fell short.
He'd also be brilliant with Thiago and they played well in a lot of games together.
Yet how many of above game were in a 433?
So.....
I’m not sure why you’re all making more of an issue of compatibility rather than Coutinho being crap now.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by moreinjuredthanowen (U9641)
posted 8 hours, 43 minutes ago
Yet how many of above game were in a 433?
So.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
which completely destroys your own point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no actually it doesn't as you were quite specific both would play in midfield moving the goal posts?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
So just to clarify, Coutinho and Thiago cant play in a midfield 3 together because they didn't at Bayern even though....
Bayern play a different formation
Have different personnel
Different tactics/patterns of play
Defend completely differently in terms of positions on pitch, engagement.
Having more depth in central midfield and more players that suited their tactic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
oh well then clearly theres no evidence at all to point to to prove they can in england for lfc in a midfield 3.
As I said it is my opinion that in england where the pace of game is much higher that we would get cut paprt trying to play thiago and coutinho in the same befield behind mane and salah and firmino or whoever the forwards are.
We require balance, we've tried different players who are all attacking types and they all get aehad of the ball and really don't do well at getting back in.
Keita has been out large parts of the last 2 years, he breifly shows when he plays how balance can be acheived as he's quite good at pressing and intercpetions and is more attutned to a genuine box to box type role.
I would contend that coutinho is not as attuned and unfortunately thus far (maye down to injury and lack of preseason) thaigo looks leggy and stuggling to get about and close down
I would perfer to go fomr someone young, that is all.
(please do note i've not once made this about you liking coutinho nor have i said one thing against the guy for leaving the club)
I just think for the wages involved, and having seen thiago on 180k a week here I don't think we can afford him, we would need to change formation to either add a no 9 and replace frimino to play coutinho as a 10 OR play coutinho or mane off the left.
Fabinho and henderson as no 6s in a 4231 as well rather than fabinho thiago imo.
I'd love us to FINALLY get to a midfield 3 of henderson fabinho and thiago before the end of this season and see what it looks like.
the difference ebtween city and us in 2 teams
City when attacking
.........................Ederson
big old space
..................Stones............ Diaz
............Walker...... Rodri.........zinchenko
................debruyne..... gundogan
mahrez..................Jesus............... Sterling
the wingers stay wide, the 2 attacking cms push on and have licesnce to find space in between the lines. the full backs are actually sort of tucke din with rodri planying more as midfield support.
Guardiola looks for overloads and tried to encourgae pressing agaisnt his side to find those passes into the advanced players.
LFC:
..................................alisson
massive space ideally
..................gomez.................. Van dijk
...............................Fabinho
...........................................wijnaldum
....................Henderson
Trent........................................................robertson
...............salah...... firmino......mane
Obviousl this is all messed up this year but the front 3 are tight and narrow, the full backs are trying to be advanced as possible, usually one of the 2 more advanced cms is just freer to proess and go and usually it was henderson. If we play keita then he goes higher o nthe left and does more half space pressing and makes good interceptions. (its the only reason i hold any small hope for him at all)
This also has a high line but relies on fast transition back and the pace of the cbs to cope.
If we change this all about and put thiago and coutinho in for say henderson and wijanualdum then you've all that lovely vision and passing and thats great.
Right up to the point that we lose the ball and see the two full backs high and wide and now those two need to fill in space and cover. This is why I don't think it would work. I think we would be cut up. Its requires a tactical readjustment which is why i said previously trent would be happy with it but it would not suit robertson.
the evidence of this year so far has me concerned about thiagos ability to get about and to change the system the question must then be to what? this year salah has done well despite the changes made but for past few weeks has been glued to the right touch line and its negated his goals.
What should we go back to next season is the question with vvd and gomez back to get the best out of the overall squad and forwards.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Teams play the long ball now because, in an ideal world, the midfield trio of Fabinho, Henderson and Wijnaldum (in the last couple of seasons) are far more disciplined, drop into full back areas in the build up phase and are much more competitive in the defensive role as the full backs push forward into the forward line with the usual front 3.
If you have Thiago and Coutinho with the full backs, I can see why moreinjuredthan would believe we would get cut open, because Thiago and especially Coutinho would relinquish a lot more space in behind them than what Henderson and Wijnaldum usually do, which could leave Fabinho protecting, but also isolated and it would mean teams would have more of a chance of playing through, rather than just going over the defence.
Having said that, if your 7 attackers are Salah, Mane, Firmino, Robertson, TAA, Coutinho and Thiago, I can't imagine many sides would want to play through the thirds to progress, as they would simply have to park the bus and get 10 men behind the ball to cope with that kind of quality.
So it would be true it would leave the team more vulnerable in central areas to play through potentially, however, the likelihood of teams doing that with those 7 players attacking would be quite unlikely as you will need numbers back in very deep areas to cope with that attacking of a system.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Yeah that's true, that's what I was saying yesterday. If Coutinho and Thiago were to be played in the same team, the style would have to tweaked in ways to make that work, but it certainly could work.
Thiago is not a No.10, he probably is more a No.6 but maybe hasn't quite grasped the defensive duties that are required in this side yet, which is why he can be described as rash/reckless at times, but he will get there with time.
Imo the issue for thiago is having to cover a lot of ground quickly, trying to get out wide and help trent as well as moving up and down the park quickly as the style.of the game.here is end to end.
Fabinho covers a lot of ground, so does henderson.
I would love to know what klopps plan was with thiago coming in last summer. I am hoping we start to see it with fabinho at no 6 and phillip and kabak just getting on with it
They’d both be injured all the time anyway.
I'd take him back and also Suarez...what impact players from the bench to have. The "squad" could have:
Suarez
Coutinho
Thiago
Mane
Salah
Firmino
AOC
Jota
With Origi, Shaqiri being released....
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DO WE DONT WE
Page 2 of 3
posted on 25/3/21
Of course you can go into the PL with 2 advanced midfielders in a 3, it just depends what you have behind them.
City do it with De Bryune and Gundogan or Foden or David Silva or Bernardo Silva in the past few seasons and don't very often get cut apart because they have a structure behind them.
It would be a dangerous game for this side though when the full backs essentially play in the forward line creating a 5 (when factoring the front 3), having a couple of midfielders advancing would just mean too many players in a too narrow area.
Coutinho and Thiago in a 3 could definitely work, but the system would have to be altered somewhat to do so I think.
posted on 25/3/21
Surely it doesnt really matter whether you thino he should be in the midfield 3 or the front 3. Surely the main point is that he could potentially do both depending on opposition? Surely the main draw is that he is a far more dangerous option to have than say either shaq or ox?
Hes an upgrade on both of them. As part of an overall squad hed be a superb addition.
posted on 25/3/21
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 2 hours, 21 minutes ago
Of course you can go into the PL with 2 advanced midfielders in a 3, it just depends what you have behind them.
City do it with De Bryune and Gundogan or Foden or David Silva or Bernardo Silva in the past few seasons and don't very often get cut apart because they have a structure behind them.
It would be a dangerous game for this side though when the full backs essentially play in the forward line creating a 5 (when factoring the front 3), having a couple of midfielders advancing would just mean too many players in a too narrow area.
Coutinho and Thiago in a 3 could definitely work, but the system would have to be altered somewhat to do so I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
at least you've made a sensible retort, not shouting NONSENSE lol.
You are quite right the approach of City is entirely different. The full backs operate eintrely different and the wide men too.
theres a world of difference between the half fit thiago and the likes of foden, debruyne, b.silva etc. Add in coutinho who was never a monster presser and I'm sorry but i can only see 7 men forward of the ball and two cbs and fabinho having to cope.
the fact is we miss henderson in midfield as much as fabinho as he adds balance. Keita actually plays reasonably well at LCM as he can play high but also make interceptions et, I still have not see us trying ketia and thaigo in the same team.
the system would indeed need to be much changed to enable it.
It might actually suite trent for example to effectively sit into a right midfield slot but it wouldn't suit robertson. It wouldn't suite salah either to sit wider to enable thiago and coutinho to use the spaces.
Probabaly wouldn't suite firmino either frankly.
At our very best we pressed high and looked for fast ball over the top to salah or mane
We had fabinho sitting but henderson and wijnaldum who had the mentality to go box to box and do the work as well as make the extra body.
With trent and roberston high and wide thats really where the creativity came from with the front 3.
posted on 25/3/21
A lot of the midfielders, such as Henderson and Wijnaldum, would often drop into a full back/wing back area during the build up phase when the full backs pushed on to create the width as the forward came inside.
Thiago could be similar to Wijnaldum, dropping into those areas whereas Coutinho could operate strictly as a No.10 where he can play between the lines and can give a different outlet rather than just a long ball in behind or big switches of play from full back to full back.
Coutinho as a 10 could certainly give the opposition more to think about. But out of Fabinho, Henderson and Thiago, who do you drop?
posted on 25/3/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 25/3/21
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 59 minutes ago
comment by moreinjuredthanowen (U9641)
posted 2 hours, 47 minutes ago
comment by JustYourAverageFan (U21016)
posted 2 hours, 21 minutes ago
Of course you can go into the PL with 2 advanced midfielders in a 3, it just depends what you have behind them.
City do it with De Bryune and Gundogan or Foden or David Silva or Bernardo Silva in the past few seasons and don't very often get cut apart because they have a structure behind them.
It would be a dangerous game for this side though when the full backs essentially play in the forward line creating a 5 (when factoring the front 3), having a couple of midfielders advancing would just mean too many players in a too narrow area.
Coutinho and Thiago in a 3 could definitely work, but the system would have to be altered somewhat to do so I think.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
at least you've made a sensible retort, not shouting NONSENSE lol.
You are quite right the approach of City is entirely different. The full backs operate eintrely different and the wide men too.
theres a world of difference between the half fit thiago and the likes of foden, debruyne, b.silva etc. Add in coutinho who was never a monster presser and I'm sorry but i can only see 7 men forward of the ball and two cbs and fabinho having to cope.
the fact is we miss henderson in midfield as much as fabinho as he adds balance. Keita actually plays reasonably well at LCM as he can play high but also make interceptions et, I still have not see us trying ketia and thaigo in the same team.
the system would indeed need to be much changed to enable it.
It might actually suite trent for example to effectively sit into a right midfield slot but it wouldn't suit robertson. It wouldn't suite salah either to sit wider to enable thiago and coutinho to use the spaces.
Probabaly wouldn't suite firmino either frankly.
At our very best we pressed high and looked for fast ball over the top to salah or mane
We had fabinho sitting but henderson and wijnaldum who had the mentality to go box to box and do the work as well as make the extra body.
With trent and roberston high and wide thats really where the creativity came from with the front 3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I didn't shout to start with, so quite why you felt the need to put it in capitals I have no idea....anyway, the one word answer is pretty much all the post deserved. We have Got Better and others who spout nonsense on here, but I don't think there is a poster on this site quite so sure of themselves but who get so much wrong in terms of tactical understanding than you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been doing the ignore, rather than attack tactic for a while now with people who talk nonsense and therefore found I make very few comments. Coutinho can't play with Thiago
Coutinho played 40 games for Bayern. 30 of which were with Thiago playing in the same game. Seven of his 40 games were wide. Some we can safely assume the huge majority were with Thiago in midfield. Not that anybody with any understanding of football would need the stats to tell you this.
posted on 25/3/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 25/3/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 25/3/21
I swear some the opinions are so lazy
Coutinho was brilliant under klopp and didnt play with Van Dijk/Alisson. It was defensively where we fell short.
He'd also be brilliant with Thiago and they played well in a lot of games together.
posted on 25/3/21
Some of the*
posted on 25/3/21
Yet how many of above game were in a 433?
So.....
posted on 25/3/21
I’m not sure why you’re all making more of an issue of compatibility rather than Coutinho being crap now.
posted on 26/3/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 26/3/21
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 1 hour, 5 minutes ago
comment by moreinjuredthanowen (U9641)
posted 8 hours, 43 minutes ago
Yet how many of above game were in a 433?
So.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
which completely destroys your own point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
no actually it doesn't as you were quite specific both would play in midfield moving the goal posts?
posted on 26/3/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 26/3/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 26/3/21
comment by GTWI4T- some people deserve to get trolled (U6008)
posted 1 hour, 19 minutes ago
So just to clarify, Coutinho and Thiago cant play in a midfield 3 together because they didn't at Bayern even though....
Bayern play a different formation
Have different personnel
Different tactics/patterns of play
Defend completely differently in terms of positions on pitch, engagement.
Having more depth in central midfield and more players that suited their tactic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
oh well then clearly theres no evidence at all to point to to prove they can in england for lfc in a midfield 3.
As I said it is my opinion that in england where the pace of game is much higher that we would get cut paprt trying to play thiago and coutinho in the same befield behind mane and salah and firmino or whoever the forwards are.
We require balance, we've tried different players who are all attacking types and they all get aehad of the ball and really don't do well at getting back in.
Keita has been out large parts of the last 2 years, he breifly shows when he plays how balance can be acheived as he's quite good at pressing and intercpetions and is more attutned to a genuine box to box type role.
I would contend that coutinho is not as attuned and unfortunately thus far (maye down to injury and lack of preseason) thaigo looks leggy and stuggling to get about and close down
I would perfer to go fomr someone young, that is all.
(please do note i've not once made this about you liking coutinho nor have i said one thing against the guy for leaving the club)
I just think for the wages involved, and having seen thiago on 180k a week here I don't think we can afford him, we would need to change formation to either add a no 9 and replace frimino to play coutinho as a 10 OR play coutinho or mane off the left.
Fabinho and henderson as no 6s in a 4231 as well rather than fabinho thiago imo.
I'd love us to FINALLY get to a midfield 3 of henderson fabinho and thiago before the end of this season and see what it looks like.
posted on 26/3/21
the difference ebtween city and us in 2 teams
City when attacking
.........................Ederson
big old space
..................Stones............ Diaz
............Walker...... Rodri.........zinchenko
................debruyne..... gundogan
mahrez..................Jesus............... Sterling
the wingers stay wide, the 2 attacking cms push on and have licesnce to find space in between the lines. the full backs are actually sort of tucke din with rodri planying more as midfield support.
Guardiola looks for overloads and tried to encourgae pressing agaisnt his side to find those passes into the advanced players.
LFC:
..................................alisson
massive space ideally
..................gomez.................. Van dijk
...............................Fabinho
...........................................wijnaldum
....................Henderson
Trent........................................................robertson
...............salah...... firmino......mane
Obviousl this is all messed up this year but the front 3 are tight and narrow, the full backs are trying to be advanced as possible, usually one of the 2 more advanced cms is just freer to proess and go and usually it was henderson. If we play keita then he goes higher o nthe left and does more half space pressing and makes good interceptions. (its the only reason i hold any small hope for him at all)
This also has a high line but relies on fast transition back and the pace of the cbs to cope.
If we change this all about and put thiago and coutinho in for say henderson and wijanualdum then you've all that lovely vision and passing and thats great.
Right up to the point that we lose the ball and see the two full backs high and wide and now those two need to fill in space and cover. This is why I don't think it would work. I think we would be cut up. Its requires a tactical readjustment which is why i said previously trent would be happy with it but it would not suit robertson.
the evidence of this year so far has me concerned about thiagos ability to get about and to change the system the question must then be to what? this year salah has done well despite the changes made but for past few weeks has been glued to the right touch line and its negated his goals.
What should we go back to next season is the question with vvd and gomez back to get the best out of the overall squad and forwards.
posted on 26/3/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 26/3/21
Teams play the long ball now because, in an ideal world, the midfield trio of Fabinho, Henderson and Wijnaldum (in the last couple of seasons) are far more disciplined, drop into full back areas in the build up phase and are much more competitive in the defensive role as the full backs push forward into the forward line with the usual front 3.
If you have Thiago and Coutinho with the full backs, I can see why moreinjuredthan would believe we would get cut open, because Thiago and especially Coutinho would relinquish a lot more space in behind them than what Henderson and Wijnaldum usually do, which could leave Fabinho protecting, but also isolated and it would mean teams would have more of a chance of playing through, rather than just going over the defence.
Having said that, if your 7 attackers are Salah, Mane, Firmino, Robertson, TAA, Coutinho and Thiago, I can't imagine many sides would want to play through the thirds to progress, as they would simply have to park the bus and get 10 men behind the ball to cope with that kind of quality.
So it would be true it would leave the team more vulnerable in central areas to play through potentially, however, the likelihood of teams doing that with those 7 players attacking would be quite unlikely as you will need numbers back in very deep areas to cope with that attacking of a system.
posted on 26/3/21
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 26/3/21
Yeah that's true, that's what I was saying yesterday. If Coutinho and Thiago were to be played in the same team, the style would have to tweaked in ways to make that work, but it certainly could work.
Thiago is not a No.10, he probably is more a No.6 but maybe hasn't quite grasped the defensive duties that are required in this side yet, which is why he can be described as rash/reckless at times, but he will get there with time.
posted on 26/3/21
Imo the issue for thiago is having to cover a lot of ground quickly, trying to get out wide and help trent as well as moving up and down the park quickly as the style.of the game.here is end to end.
Fabinho covers a lot of ground, so does henderson.
I would love to know what klopps plan was with thiago coming in last summer. I am hoping we start to see it with fabinho at no 6 and phillip and kabak just getting on with it
posted on 26/3/21
They’d both be injured all the time anyway.
posted on 27/3/21
I'd take him back and also Suarez...what impact players from the bench to have. The "squad" could have:
Suarez
Coutinho
Thiago
Mane
Salah
Firmino
AOC
Jota
With Origi, Shaqiri being released....
Page 2 of 3