per 90 minutes
tackles + interceptions in the PL
Pogba - 2.51
tielemans - 2.56
pressures
pogba - 16.1
tielemans - 16.2
clearances
pogba - 1.42
tielemans 0.9
errors leading to opponent's shot
pogba 0.01
tielemans - 0.01
blocks
pogba - 1.10
tielemans - 1.58
https://fbref.com/en/stathead/player_comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=0&comp_type=spec&dom_lg=1&spec_comps=9&player_id1=867239d3&player_id2=56f7a928
now, adjusting for the fact that we generally have more of the ball than leicester - ie have to do less defending - are we actually convinced that tielemans is a better defensive shield than pogba?
Interesting stats those, Don. It must be something in the way he carries himself, or a hangover from the Jose years or something, as I'm as guilty as anyone of sometimes just focusing on the times he didn't track back, or dawdled on the ball and it led to a goal, and that definitely skews opinions of him.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 30 minutes ago
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 15 minutes ago
No way, if Rashford's fit he starts, we've seen the past few seasons he doesn't really get rested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So we have Ronaldo, Rashford and Bruno who all start, absolutely without question.
Leaving one position for all of Lingard, Cavani, Martial and Sancho?
IIf Ole has learnt anything from the past two seasons, he will rotate in some of the cup games this season, or even the PL as the schedule gets going.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There's Greenwood too. And even if Sancho has to earn the right to be a fixture in the team, he's just been brought in as this summer's major investment. Our squad is very top-heavy: if we're talking about having to fit in Fernandes + Pogba by either playing the former as a false 9 or the latter on the left wing, it's a lot of attacking talent going unused.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I knew I'd forgotten somebody.
Greenwood, for me, gets in ahead of anybody after Ronaldo at the moment. I much prefer him up front though.
comment by The Post Nearly Man (U1270)
posted 59 seconds ago
Interesting stats those, Don. It must be something in the way he carries himself, or a hangover from the Jose years or something, as I'm as guilty as anyone of sometimes just focusing on the times he didn't track back, or dawdled on the ball and it led to a goal, and that definitely skews opinions of him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i definitely think mourinho poisoned the well for a lot of people, which is really odd, because other than wahl almost everyone ignores everything to have come out of the man's mouth.
but even in the past 6 months i have heard pogba referred to as a virus, which only one person has (apparently?) ever called him.
normally fans watch their own players more than other teams', and then overrate them; with pogba, bizarrely, the more his own fans watch him, the more they become convinced that there are dozens of players out there who can do all the passing/assisting that he does, but that never give the ball away, never get tackled, never miss a tackle, and are therefore far better than him.
once these narratives get fixed, they can be impossible to shift, even with me droning on about stats all the time. take pogba vs southampton 2 seasons ago, he loses the ball, saints score, that is pogba being a liability. he is then involved in both united goals, no one remembers that at all; on saturday, bruno loses the ball from a throw-in, newcastle don't score, no one even mentions it. had pogba done that, there'd have been 3 articles on that alone.
oh, and one stat i forgot
non-penalty goals + assists per 90 minutes:
pogba - 0.45
tielemans - 0.29
literally 50% better. and yeah, pogba has scored or assisted at a rate of 1 every 2.2 games over his entire united career, but again 3 months ago i could still have found people who would swear that for every good game he has he then has 6-8-10 bad ones.
Don't think there's a player anywhere ever that gets critiqued as much as Pogba about the things he supposedly doesn't offer a football team.
DDD, you may be right, though I think the differences in stats in part reflect the difference between the roles they are asked to play, in addition to the respective performance levels, e.g. the tackling stats demonstrate that Tielemans' Leicester are playing more of a high pressing game than Pogba's United, which in turn probably impacts the stats relating to what happens when Tielemans wins the ball. To be honest, I don't know to what extent I should trust the evidence of my eyes vs stats. I've heard people saying that Fred outperforms Bissouma on various metrics, and back in the day Herrera was supposed to be winning the ball more than Kante. That's not to say "you can't trust stats" - just I'm confused by the disconnect between the undeniable evidence and my subjective impressions.
And again, I'm not coming at this from an anti-Pogba perspective. I think he's a superb player who will always be more effective in a three-man midfield.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 36 seconds ago
To be honest, I don't know to what extent I should trust the evidence of my eyes vs stats.
And again, I'm not coming at this from an anti-Pogba perspective. I think he's a superb player who will always be more effective in a three-man midfield.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if everyone's eyes were as trustworthy as yours, i would never quote another stat (honest. probably). but people show on here every day that their eyes are faulty, clouded by biases and prejudices and all sorts of nasties. and i think that is nowhere more true than with pogba.
and yes, i agree on the latter point, and that is really where we played him vs leeds and southampton - he was not, and never will be, a left winger. that is where i prefer him, though with thin options behind him for the 2 (matic can barely play 90 minutes these days, let alone 90 minutes 2-3 times a week) it takes a scottish tweaked groin for pogba to be moved back.
unless...nah...surely not....donny?
I'm very much with you regarding bias against Pogba. A case in point was the Euros, where I thought Pogba was France's best player, with Ballon d'Or level passing. He was world class in the Switzerland game, central to France exerting control, scored a beautiful goal, and then in the dying moments received a pass when three Swiss midfielders were converging on him, got mugged, and although the French defence had to make another couple of mistakes for that dispossession in midfield to turn into an equaliser, we were awash with the 'defensively dodgy Pogba costs his side' narrative.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 minutes ago
I'm very much with you regarding bias against Pogba. A case in point was the Euros, where I thought Pogba was France's best player, with Ballon d'Or level passing. He was world class in the Switzerland game, central to France exerting control, scored a beautiful goal, and then in the dying moments received a pass when three Swiss midfielders were converging on him, got mugged, and although the French defence had to make another couple of mistakes for that dispossession in midfield to turn into an equaliser, we were awash with the 'defensively dodgy Pogba costs his side' narrative.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He also put a slide rule pass through for Mbappe in extra time which he sliced horribly wide
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 55 minutes ago
Don't think there's a player anywhere ever that gets critiqued as much as Pogba about the things he supposedly doesn't offer a football team.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of it really is bizarre.
This whole idea some people have that he poisons the dressing room or lacks professionalism - it literally comes from absolutely nowhere. By all accounts the exact opposite is true.
I've always had my suspicions about there being a more sinister root to all of it...but that's for another discussion I guess.
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 55 minutes ago
Don't think there's a player anywhere ever that gets critiqued as much as Pogba about the things he supposedly doesn't offer a football team.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of it really is bizarre.
This whole idea some people have that he poisons the dressing room or lacks professionalism - it literally comes from absolutely nowhere. By all accounts the exact opposite is true.
I've always had my suspicions about there being a more sinister root to all of it...but that's for another discussion I guess.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When they say 'dabbing' what they're really talking about is...
Pogba is a very good players, just gets wasted because we don't have a quality cdm next to him.
As for Madrid, the only reason he won't go there is because they might not want to pay him 300k a week, if they're getting Haaland and Mbappe in the summer.
I don't think he would choose United over Madrid, if they really wanted him.
To be fair to Pogba I think it expectation and perception that could be causing the negative opinions.
When he's disciplined and plays a part in the team as a whole being solid people say he's not done much.
When he's playing well and creating, but then makes a smallish error, he's said to be a liability.
I think people expect a bit too much of him at times in terms of the spectacular. I still think he'd work better in a 3 though as that would allow him a bit more freedom to showcase his creative skills.
Just occurred to me: if we *really* want to get to the bottom of this common tendency to berate Pogba for disproportionately to the flaws in his game, maybe we should just ask Graeme Souness?
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
I'm very much with you regarding bias against Pogba. A case in point was the Euros, where I thought Pogba was France's best player, with Ballon d'Or level passing. He was world class in the Switzerland game, central to France exerting control, scored a beautiful goal, and then in the dying moments received a pass when three Swiss midfielders were converging on him, got mugged, and although the French defence had to make another couple of mistakes for that dispossession in midfield to turn into an equaliser, we were awash with the 'defensively dodgy Pogba costs his side' narrative.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly and no criticism of Benzema poor giving it to him when surrounded by 3 players either.
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Pogba
Page 3 of 3
posted on 13/9/21
per 90 minutes
tackles + interceptions in the PL
Pogba - 2.51
tielemans - 2.56
pressures
pogba - 16.1
tielemans - 16.2
clearances
pogba - 1.42
tielemans 0.9
errors leading to opponent's shot
pogba 0.01
tielemans - 0.01
blocks
pogba - 1.10
tielemans - 1.58
https://fbref.com/en/stathead/player_comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=0&comp_type=spec&dom_lg=1&spec_comps=9&player_id1=867239d3&player_id2=56f7a928
now, adjusting for the fact that we generally have more of the ball than leicester - ie have to do less defending - are we actually convinced that tielemans is a better defensive shield than pogba?
posted on 13/9/21
Interesting stats those, Don. It must be something in the way he carries himself, or a hangover from the Jose years or something, as I'm as guilty as anyone of sometimes just focusing on the times he didn't track back, or dawdled on the ball and it led to a goal, and that definitely skews opinions of him.
posted on 13/9/21
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 30 minutes ago
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 15 minutes ago
No way, if Rashford's fit he starts, we've seen the past few seasons he doesn't really get rested.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So we have Ronaldo, Rashford and Bruno who all start, absolutely without question.
Leaving one position for all of Lingard, Cavani, Martial and Sancho?
IIf Ole has learnt anything from the past two seasons, he will rotate in some of the cup games this season, or even the PL as the schedule gets going.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There's Greenwood too. And even if Sancho has to earn the right to be a fixture in the team, he's just been brought in as this summer's major investment. Our squad is very top-heavy: if we're talking about having to fit in Fernandes + Pogba by either playing the former as a false 9 or the latter on the left wing, it's a lot of attacking talent going unused.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I knew I'd forgotten somebody.
Greenwood, for me, gets in ahead of anybody after Ronaldo at the moment. I much prefer him up front though.
posted on 13/9/21
comment by The Post Nearly Man (U1270)
posted 59 seconds ago
Interesting stats those, Don. It must be something in the way he carries himself, or a hangover from the Jose years or something, as I'm as guilty as anyone of sometimes just focusing on the times he didn't track back, or dawdled on the ball and it led to a goal, and that definitely skews opinions of him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i definitely think mourinho poisoned the well for a lot of people, which is really odd, because other than wahl almost everyone ignores everything to have come out of the man's mouth.
but even in the past 6 months i have heard pogba referred to as a virus, which only one person has (apparently?) ever called him.
normally fans watch their own players more than other teams', and then overrate them; with pogba, bizarrely, the more his own fans watch him, the more they become convinced that there are dozens of players out there who can do all the passing/assisting that he does, but that never give the ball away, never get tackled, never miss a tackle, and are therefore far better than him.
once these narratives get fixed, they can be impossible to shift, even with me droning on about stats all the time. take pogba vs southampton 2 seasons ago, he loses the ball, saints score, that is pogba being a liability. he is then involved in both united goals, no one remembers that at all; on saturday, bruno loses the ball from a throw-in, newcastle don't score, no one even mentions it. had pogba done that, there'd have been 3 articles on that alone.
oh, and one stat i forgot
non-penalty goals + assists per 90 minutes:
pogba - 0.45
tielemans - 0.29
literally 50% better. and yeah, pogba has scored or assisted at a rate of 1 every 2.2 games over his entire united career, but again 3 months ago i could still have found people who would swear that for every good game he has he then has 6-8-10 bad ones.
posted on 13/9/21
Don't think there's a player anywhere ever that gets critiqued as much as Pogba about the things he supposedly doesn't offer a football team.
posted on 13/9/21
DDD, you may be right, though I think the differences in stats in part reflect the difference between the roles they are asked to play, in addition to the respective performance levels, e.g. the tackling stats demonstrate that Tielemans' Leicester are playing more of a high pressing game than Pogba's United, which in turn probably impacts the stats relating to what happens when Tielemans wins the ball. To be honest, I don't know to what extent I should trust the evidence of my eyes vs stats. I've heard people saying that Fred outperforms Bissouma on various metrics, and back in the day Herrera was supposed to be winning the ball more than Kante. That's not to say "you can't trust stats" - just I'm confused by the disconnect between the undeniable evidence and my subjective impressions.
And again, I'm not coming at this from an anti-Pogba perspective. I think he's a superb player who will always be more effective in a three-man midfield.
posted on 13/9/21
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 36 seconds ago
To be honest, I don't know to what extent I should trust the evidence of my eyes vs stats.
And again, I'm not coming at this from an anti-Pogba perspective. I think he's a superb player who will always be more effective in a three-man midfield.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
if everyone's eyes were as trustworthy as yours, i would never quote another stat (honest. probably). but people show on here every day that their eyes are faulty, clouded by biases and prejudices and all sorts of nasties. and i think that is nowhere more true than with pogba.
and yes, i agree on the latter point, and that is really where we played him vs leeds and southampton - he was not, and never will be, a left winger. that is where i prefer him, though with thin options behind him for the 2 (matic can barely play 90 minutes these days, let alone 90 minutes 2-3 times a week) it takes a scottish tweaked groin for pogba to be moved back.
unless...nah...surely not....donny?
posted on 13/9/21
I'm very much with you regarding bias against Pogba. A case in point was the Euros, where I thought Pogba was France's best player, with Ballon d'Or level passing. He was world class in the Switzerland game, central to France exerting control, scored a beautiful goal, and then in the dying moments received a pass when three Swiss midfielders were converging on him, got mugged, and although the French defence had to make another couple of mistakes for that dispossession in midfield to turn into an equaliser, we were awash with the 'defensively dodgy Pogba costs his side' narrative.
posted on 13/9/21
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 7 minutes ago
I'm very much with you regarding bias against Pogba. A case in point was the Euros, where I thought Pogba was France's best player, with Ballon d'Or level passing. He was world class in the Switzerland game, central to France exerting control, scored a beautiful goal, and then in the dying moments received a pass when three Swiss midfielders were converging on him, got mugged, and although the French defence had to make another couple of mistakes for that dispossession in midfield to turn into an equaliser, we were awash with the 'defensively dodgy Pogba costs his side' narrative.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He also put a slide rule pass through for Mbappe in extra time which he sliced horribly wide
posted on 13/9/21
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 55 minutes ago
Don't think there's a player anywhere ever that gets critiqued as much as Pogba about the things he supposedly doesn't offer a football team.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of it really is bizarre.
This whole idea some people have that he poisons the dressing room or lacks professionalism - it literally comes from absolutely nowhere. By all accounts the exact opposite is true.
I've always had my suspicions about there being a more sinister root to all of it...but that's for another discussion I guess.
posted on 13/9/21
comment by -bloodred- (U1222)
posted 45 minutes ago
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 55 minutes ago
Don't think there's a player anywhere ever that gets critiqued as much as Pogba about the things he supposedly doesn't offer a football team.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of it really is bizarre.
This whole idea some people have that he poisons the dressing room or lacks professionalism - it literally comes from absolutely nowhere. By all accounts the exact opposite is true.
I've always had my suspicions about there being a more sinister root to all of it...but that's for another discussion I guess.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When they say 'dabbing' what they're really talking about is...
posted on 13/9/21
Pogba is a very good players, just gets wasted because we don't have a quality cdm next to him.
As for Madrid, the only reason he won't go there is because they might not want to pay him 300k a week, if they're getting Haaland and Mbappe in the summer.
I don't think he would choose United over Madrid, if they really wanted him.
posted on 13/9/21
To be fair to Pogba I think it expectation and perception that could be causing the negative opinions.
When he's disciplined and plays a part in the team as a whole being solid people say he's not done much.
When he's playing well and creating, but then makes a smallish error, he's said to be a liability.
I think people expect a bit too much of him at times in terms of the spectacular. I still think he'd work better in a 3 though as that would allow him a bit more freedom to showcase his creative skills.
posted on 13/9/21
Just occurred to me: if we *really* want to get to the bottom of this common tendency to berate Pogba for disproportionately to the flaws in his game, maybe we should just ask Graeme Souness?
posted on 13/9/21
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
I'm very much with you regarding bias against Pogba. A case in point was the Euros, where I thought Pogba was France's best player, with Ballon d'Or level passing. He was world class in the Switzerland game, central to France exerting control, scored a beautiful goal, and then in the dying moments received a pass when three Swiss midfielders were converging on him, got mugged, and although the French defence had to make another couple of mistakes for that dispossession in midfield to turn into an equaliser, we were awash with the 'defensively dodgy Pogba costs his side' narrative.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly and no criticism of Benzema poor giving it to him when surrounded by 3 players either.
Page 3 of 3