So look forward to some Rooney to Valencia-esque long balls.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how he slots in (next to Frenkie, eh Diafol?).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My hat is still hanging on that one. Even if the door's about to be opened to blow it off the stand.
On Casemiro. Good article. Let's hope we can see the best of him and not any weaknesses exposed because of what's around him. Won't be as much of a problem with FDJ though...
To add the more players we have who can ping it out to our wide players early the better. Our wingers have been pretty poor of late but it doesn't help them that when they do eventually get the ball the other team have been allowed to get into shape. Perhaps the thinking is that if we can be more of a threat from wide (with the mooted signing of Antony) our deficiencies in the middle won't be as noticeable?
His quality isn't in question. His motivation for dropping down a level is. What you've been short of at United isn't quality - the game against Liverpool will testify to that. It's making sure you have the right characters with the right attitude. My worry would be is this another in a long line of 30 somethings looking for one final big payday, and boy is this one big. Because you don't have the CL you're trying to lure CL players with big money but that comes with massive doubts about motivation. You'd be better off improving the infrastructure, scouting, academy in the same way Fergie did when he first joined than trying patch up old wounds with yet another plaster.
It's easy to motivate yourself for a massive derby. The real acid test will be away to Southampton on Saturday. We've seen these false dawns before. To have the right attitude, to run as much or more than the opposition has to happen every week. Those lads have been on easy street for far too long.
Ship out the bad eggs and keep those willing to run for the cause, even if they lack the same quality of those departing (Ronaldo).
The thing about running is that every team can do it.
Doncaster could run further than Man City, and?
It's not a good stat to use, yet it's used all the time now.
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 43 seconds ago
The thing about running is that every team can do it.
Doncaster could run further than Man City, and?
It's not a good stat to use, yet it's used all the time now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's an extremely good stat to use as it's a measure of effort. If your effort is down, it doesn't matter what tactics you adopt or how much quality you have.
Sure Doncaster can run at 100% against United at say 60% and United would still win but if you play at 60% in the Premier League, you're going to lose a shedload of games.
It's the best barometer for heart, desire and attitude. Without those three, you won't get anywhere.
If your style is to press and hold possession, as ETH's is, then running stats are vital. Having said that, if you're not coordinated in your pressing, your running numbers could go up with little effect. There's no point in one pressing. Everyone has to have the same attitude and press in twos or threes each time.
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 43 seconds ago
The thing about running is that every team can do it.
Doncaster could run further than Man City, and?
It's not a good stat to use, yet it's used all the time now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's an extremely good stat to use as it's a measure of effort. If your effort is down, it doesn't matter what tactics you adopt or how much quality you have.
Sure Doncaster can run at 100% against United at say 60% and United would still win but if you play at 60% in the Premier League, you're going to lose a shedload of games.
It's the best barometer for heart, desire and attitude. Without those three, you won't get anywhere.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The point still stands though, there's nothing to stop any PL team run as far as us. Other qualities are needed.
The most important thing about the Casemiro signing is his character. We actually haven’t had this kind of character in the midfield since Roy Keane. Players like that help raise the level of others, even if they are not the most talented in the team.
Will be interesting to see how Fred pairs with him in a United shirt. They play well together for Brazil, by all accounts, but it’s a totally different set of players, manager and opposition so can’t really garner too much from that - Shaw and Maguire’s recent exploits for England tell us just that.
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 4 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
These are very reasonable questions to raise, Fridgeboy. There's definitely a risk in dangling lots of money in front of ageing stars and we've not done well in that department previously. Due to past failures, we're approaching the transfer from a position of weakness, so inevitably we don't often have the pick of the best players coming into their prime (like the one Real signed as Casemiro's long-term successor!). However, in general, I'd like to see us relying more on younger, hungrier players who will improve. To be fair, Malacia, Lisandro and Antony (if he comes) fall into that category.
A couple of caveats. One is that we should treat every case based on its specifics. Buy too many fading stars and you're likely to have problems with motivation and stamina. But there will be some whose ambition is as fierce as ever and who buy into the project. We'll keep our fingers crossed that Casemiro falls into that category.
The other is that (having noted the lack of leadership and the psychological fragility of the team) Ten Hag clearly wants some experience within the squad. If Casemiro plays a big role in a cultural reset, that would add value in addition to that which we derive from his intelligent screening and cynical fouls.
I might be misremembering, but think I heard mentioned that the average age of United's starting team the other week was one of their youngest in quite some time.
If that's the case, then it shouldn't be that much of a concern to add the experience of a highly-decorated 30-year-old. Quite the opposite, he could bring something that the team is actually in need of, as others have mentioned.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here (I don't know if the article covers it) is that he's also been pretty handy at Madrid in set-piece play in both boxes.
ioag, yeah I believe that was against Liverpool. Many fans seem to think our problems have stemmed from signing 30 year old big names, even though it’s incorrect. We’ve badly lacked experience and character in many vital positions over the years. We’ve had too many players that are past it or not at their peak in this team.
Yep. I think the main concern with Casemiro is that he's appeared to have become more sluggish over the past couple of years, as RR hinted at in the OP. I mistakenly put it as struggling with injuries rather than struggling for fitness in recent threads, but the worry is that it might not be the best of times for him to adapt to a higher-paced game.
All in all, I'd say we've almost looked at Casemiro more as our 5th defender than as the 3rd midfielder at Madrid. I don't know how much he might have been held back by servicing Modric's and Kroos' requirements, but I wouldn't expect him to suddenly bloom into this uber-creative midfielder and I wouldn't be looking to him as my first passing option out of the back.
It’s going to be interesting to see how we will use him and how he settled into a new way of playing.
That’s the bigger concern for me, ETH is a completely different coach from any Casemiro has worked under before, as far as I’m aware.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 4 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
These are very reasonable questions to raise, Fridgeboy. There's definitely a risk in dangling lots of money in front of ageing stars and we've not done well in that department previously. Due to past failures, we're approaching the transfer from a position of weakness, so inevitably we don't often have the pick of the best players coming into their prime (like the one Real signed as Casemiro's long-term successor!). However, in general, I'd like to see us relying more on younger, hungrier players who will improve. To be fair, Malacia, Lisandro and Antony (if he comes) fall into that category.
A couple of caveats. One is that we should treat every case based on its specifics. Buy too many fading stars and you're likely to have problems with motivation and stamina. But there will be some whose ambition is as fierce as ever and who buy into the project. We'll keep our fingers crossed that Casemiro falls into that category.
The other is that (having noted the lack of leadership and the psychological fragility of the team) Ten Hag clearly wants some experience within the squad. If Casemiro plays a big role in a cultural reset, that would add value in addition to that which we derive from his intelligent screening and cynical fouls.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You are right, you can't dismiss every high profile signing just because they're over 30. He may have come here for the money but he may surprise everyone by leaving everything out there on that pitch. Sometimes it can be the influence of one man that can change the behaviours of everyone. Look at Suarez at Liverpool. He ran after everything. Those other players will have been looking at that, particularly the younger ones and it will have rubbed off on them. Conversely, mix with the wrong sort and it can have a detrimental effect on the way you play. You've only got to look at Mbappe's latest antics to know he's picked up some poisonous bad habits from Neymar.
On Casemiro though, I think the fact that he's come from Real clouds my judgement a little. There's a feeling of entitlement about them and I've no idea if he falls into a similar category. If things go sour in a game, is he one to throw his hands in the air a bit like Ronaldo or grab the game by the scruff of the neck and lead by example? These are the unknowns but I think if you were a betting man, knowing you're dealing with someone that's downgraded significantly on account of a huge pay increase, you'd probably heavily lean on the idea that this is a player just happy to take home his huge wage every week rather than change the fortunes of the club. I could be wildly wrong though. You never know, he could be the next Cantona in terms of someone having a huge effect on the club.
I think Casemiro will be used in the same mould as TH did with Alvarez at Ajax in a double pivot with Gravenberch.
He would be asked to drop in defence and if your manager adopt a high line to stop counter attacks.
Fridgeboy, I suspect he'll be somewhere in between saviour-Cantona and destroy-the-vibes Ronaldo. From the little I know about him, he seems pretty humble and professional, and obsessed with tactical understanding. He's saying the right things in interviews - but then he would, wouldn't he? Will be interesting to see.
comment by Boca Seniors (U19731)
posted 1 hour, 23 minutes ago
I think Casemiro will be used in the same mould as TH did with Alvarez at Ajax in a double pivot with Gravenberch.
He would be asked to drop in defence and if your manager adopt a high line to stop counter attacks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We now have a high-class Alvarez, but I'd be more confident if we had a Gravenberch to play beside him. Eriksen may have what it takes, but there are questions about his legs and the fact that he hasn't played a great deal in the pivot.
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Casemiro
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posted on 26/8/22
So look forward to some Rooney to Valencia-esque long balls.
posted on 26/8/22
I'm really looking forward to seeing how he slots in (next to Frenkie, eh Diafol?).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My hat is still hanging on that one. Even if the door's about to be opened to blow it off the stand.
On Casemiro. Good article. Let's hope we can see the best of him and not any weaknesses exposed because of what's around him. Won't be as much of a problem with FDJ though...
posted on 26/8/22
To add the more players we have who can ping it out to our wide players early the better. Our wingers have been pretty poor of late but it doesn't help them that when they do eventually get the ball the other team have been allowed to get into shape. Perhaps the thinking is that if we can be more of a threat from wide (with the mooted signing of Antony) our deficiencies in the middle won't be as noticeable?
posted on 26/8/22
His quality isn't in question. His motivation for dropping down a level is. What you've been short of at United isn't quality - the game against Liverpool will testify to that. It's making sure you have the right characters with the right attitude. My worry would be is this another in a long line of 30 somethings looking for one final big payday, and boy is this one big. Because you don't have the CL you're trying to lure CL players with big money but that comes with massive doubts about motivation. You'd be better off improving the infrastructure, scouting, academy in the same way Fergie did when he first joined than trying patch up old wounds with yet another plaster.
It's easy to motivate yourself for a massive derby. The real acid test will be away to Southampton on Saturday. We've seen these false dawns before. To have the right attitude, to run as much or more than the opposition has to happen every week. Those lads have been on easy street for far too long.
Ship out the bad eggs and keep those willing to run for the cause, even if they lack the same quality of those departing (Ronaldo).
posted on 26/8/22
The thing about running is that every team can do it.
Doncaster could run further than Man City, and?
It's not a good stat to use, yet it's used all the time now.
posted on 26/8/22
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 43 seconds ago
The thing about running is that every team can do it.
Doncaster could run further than Man City, and?
It's not a good stat to use, yet it's used all the time now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's an extremely good stat to use as it's a measure of effort. If your effort is down, it doesn't matter what tactics you adopt or how much quality you have.
Sure Doncaster can run at 100% against United at say 60% and United would still win but if you play at 60% in the Premier League, you're going to lose a shedload of games.
It's the best barometer for heart, desire and attitude. Without those three, you won't get anywhere.
posted on 26/8/22
If your style is to press and hold possession, as ETH's is, then running stats are vital. Having said that, if you're not coordinated in your pressing, your running numbers could go up with little effect. There's no point in one pressing. Everyone has to have the same attitude and press in twos or threes each time.
posted on 26/8/22
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 43 seconds ago
The thing about running is that every team can do it.
Doncaster could run further than Man City, and?
It's not a good stat to use, yet it's used all the time now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's an extremely good stat to use as it's a measure of effort. If your effort is down, it doesn't matter what tactics you adopt or how much quality you have.
Sure Doncaster can run at 100% against United at say 60% and United would still win but if you play at 60% in the Premier League, you're going to lose a shedload of games.
It's the best barometer for heart, desire and attitude. Without those three, you won't get anywhere.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The point still stands though, there's nothing to stop any PL team run as far as us. Other qualities are needed.
posted on 26/8/22
The most important thing about the Casemiro signing is his character. We actually haven’t had this kind of character in the midfield since Roy Keane. Players like that help raise the level of others, even if they are not the most talented in the team.
Will be interesting to see how Fred pairs with him in a United shirt. They play well together for Brazil, by all accounts, but it’s a totally different set of players, manager and opposition so can’t really garner too much from that - Shaw and Maguire’s recent exploits for England tell us just that.
posted on 26/8/22
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 4 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
These are very reasonable questions to raise, Fridgeboy. There's definitely a risk in dangling lots of money in front of ageing stars and we've not done well in that department previously. Due to past failures, we're approaching the transfer from a position of weakness, so inevitably we don't often have the pick of the best players coming into their prime (like the one Real signed as Casemiro's long-term successor!). However, in general, I'd like to see us relying more on younger, hungrier players who will improve. To be fair, Malacia, Lisandro and Antony (if he comes) fall into that category.
A couple of caveats. One is that we should treat every case based on its specifics. Buy too many fading stars and you're likely to have problems with motivation and stamina. But there will be some whose ambition is as fierce as ever and who buy into the project. We'll keep our fingers crossed that Casemiro falls into that category.
The other is that (having noted the lack of leadership and the psychological fragility of the team) Ten Hag clearly wants some experience within the squad. If Casemiro plays a big role in a cultural reset, that would add value in addition to that which we derive from his intelligent screening and cynical fouls.
posted on 26/8/22
I might be misremembering, but think I heard mentioned that the average age of United's starting team the other week was one of their youngest in quite some time.
If that's the case, then it shouldn't be that much of a concern to add the experience of a highly-decorated 30-year-old. Quite the opposite, he could bring something that the team is actually in need of, as others have mentioned.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here (I don't know if the article covers it) is that he's also been pretty handy at Madrid in set-piece play in both boxes.
posted on 26/8/22
ioag, yeah I believe that was against Liverpool. Many fans seem to think our problems have stemmed from signing 30 year old big names, even though it’s incorrect. We’ve badly lacked experience and character in many vital positions over the years. We’ve had too many players that are past it or not at their peak in this team.
posted on 26/8/22
Yep. I think the main concern with Casemiro is that he's appeared to have become more sluggish over the past couple of years, as RR hinted at in the OP. I mistakenly put it as struggling with injuries rather than struggling for fitness in recent threads, but the worry is that it might not be the best of times for him to adapt to a higher-paced game.
All in all, I'd say we've almost looked at Casemiro more as our 5th defender than as the 3rd midfielder at Madrid. I don't know how much he might have been held back by servicing Modric's and Kroos' requirements, but I wouldn't expect him to suddenly bloom into this uber-creative midfielder and I wouldn't be looking to him as my first passing option out of the back.
posted on 26/8/22
It’s going to be interesting to see how we will use him and how he settled into a new way of playing.
That’s the bigger concern for me, ETH is a completely different coach from any Casemiro has worked under before, as far as I’m aware.
posted on 26/8/22
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 4 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
These are very reasonable questions to raise, Fridgeboy. There's definitely a risk in dangling lots of money in front of ageing stars and we've not done well in that department previously. Due to past failures, we're approaching the transfer from a position of weakness, so inevitably we don't often have the pick of the best players coming into their prime (like the one Real signed as Casemiro's long-term successor!). However, in general, I'd like to see us relying more on younger, hungrier players who will improve. To be fair, Malacia, Lisandro and Antony (if he comes) fall into that category.
A couple of caveats. One is that we should treat every case based on its specifics. Buy too many fading stars and you're likely to have problems with motivation and stamina. But there will be some whose ambition is as fierce as ever and who buy into the project. We'll keep our fingers crossed that Casemiro falls into that category.
The other is that (having noted the lack of leadership and the psychological fragility of the team) Ten Hag clearly wants some experience within the squad. If Casemiro plays a big role in a cultural reset, that would add value in addition to that which we derive from his intelligent screening and cynical fouls.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You are right, you can't dismiss every high profile signing just because they're over 30. He may have come here for the money but he may surprise everyone by leaving everything out there on that pitch. Sometimes it can be the influence of one man that can change the behaviours of everyone. Look at Suarez at Liverpool. He ran after everything. Those other players will have been looking at that, particularly the younger ones and it will have rubbed off on them. Conversely, mix with the wrong sort and it can have a detrimental effect on the way you play. You've only got to look at Mbappe's latest antics to know he's picked up some poisonous bad habits from Neymar.
On Casemiro though, I think the fact that he's come from Real clouds my judgement a little. There's a feeling of entitlement about them and I've no idea if he falls into a similar category. If things go sour in a game, is he one to throw his hands in the air a bit like Ronaldo or grab the game by the scruff of the neck and lead by example? These are the unknowns but I think if you were a betting man, knowing you're dealing with someone that's downgraded significantly on account of a huge pay increase, you'd probably heavily lean on the idea that this is a player just happy to take home his huge wage every week rather than change the fortunes of the club. I could be wildly wrong though. You never know, he could be the next Cantona in terms of someone having a huge effect on the club.
posted on 26/8/22
I think Casemiro will be used in the same mould as TH did with Alvarez at Ajax in a double pivot with Gravenberch.
He would be asked to drop in defence and if your manager adopt a high line to stop counter attacks.
posted on 26/8/22
Fridgeboy, I suspect he'll be somewhere in between saviour-Cantona and destroy-the-vibes Ronaldo. From the little I know about him, he seems pretty humble and professional, and obsessed with tactical understanding. He's saying the right things in interviews - but then he would, wouldn't he? Will be interesting to see.
posted on 26/8/22
comment by Boca Seniors (U19731)
posted 1 hour, 23 minutes ago
I think Casemiro will be used in the same mould as TH did with Alvarez at Ajax in a double pivot with Gravenberch.
He would be asked to drop in defence and if your manager adopt a high line to stop counter attacks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We now have a high-class Alvarez, but I'd be more confident if we had a Gravenberch to play beside him. Eriksen may have what it takes, but there are questions about his legs and the fact that he hasn't played a great deal in the pivot.
Page 1 of 1