comment by Amanda Hugginkiss (U11574)
posted 42 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
Poch worries me. As much as I love the man, he's barely worked since leaving us in 2019 and he didnt even win the league with PSG.
I would love to have what we had before with him, not least of all his Argentine passion and commitment.
But football moves on quickly. Lest we forget that in his final 6-9 months we really struggled to break teams down, the team stopped delivering and he couldnt fix it, the form was dreadful and if it wasnt for the UCL final the sustained really poor form would stand out much more.
Tuchel, while seeming like a decent bloke and good tactician, i fear he suffers the same dull football that Conte does. His Chelsea was flying when their wing backs were, but overall the approach is very similar to Conte, he just had better players
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Solid research there. He did win the league in his only full season there.
Also the reasons behind the downfall in his last season at Spurs are so well-established and so much more than just "he couldn't fix it"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed won 3 trophies in a season and a half.
Come on. Don't be counting Farmers League trophies. Scrapping the barrell.
He did not get a tune out of Messi either.
"He's barely worked since leaving us" is a weird take too. He took a little over a year off after leaving Spurs having managed pretty much uninterrupted for ten years before that, and having basically acknowledged in public that he was burned out at Spurs.
He then did ~18 months with PSG and he's been out of work for ~9 months.
Other than all the inaccuracies though, great post
comment by LukaBrasi COYS (U22178)
posted 4 minutes ago
Come on. Don't be counting Farmers League trophies. Scrapping the barrell.
He did not get a tune out of Messi either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And Messi has also been public about the fact that he found it extremely difficult to adjust in his first season at a new club/country.
I'm not saying Pochettino was a roaring success, just seems a bit pointed to view these things in such a one-dimensional manner
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 hours, 31 minutes ago
Poch worries me. As much as I love the man, he's barely worked since leaving us in 2019 and he didnt even win the league with PSG.
I would love to have what we had before with him, not least of all his Argentine passion and commitment.
But football moves on quickly. Lest we forget that in his final 6-9 months we really struggled to break teams down, the team stopped delivering and he couldnt fix it, the form was dreadful and if it wasnt for the UCL final the sustained really poor form would stand out much more.
Tuchel, while seeming like a decent bloke and good tactician, i fear he suffers the same dull football that Conte does. His Chelsea was flying when their wing backs were, but overall the approach is very similar to Conte, he just had better players
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Poch was burnt out at the end with us.
He needed a break.
Would be excited for him to come back, fresh.
I'm not the biggest fan - I think he's never going to be more than a 7/10 player - but I'd rather have him as first pick than Skipp or Sarr just now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skipp was far better than Hojberg in our last game against wolves and Sarr has been better in every game he has played
Emerson ahead of Porro? I would expect Porro to improve enough to displace Emerson as our 1st choice RB and if he doesn't then what a failure that signing is. Unless of course Emerson keeps his good form up and goes on to be as good as Rose/Walker were, which I can't quite see.
Someone on r/coys did a great analysis on returning manager stats. Happy to give the link if anyone is interested but basically it looks this:
https://preview.redd.it/ud2e72ey30ma1.png?width=512&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=7e49e4343eb867a5bb27bdda72ca44bb63332d45
Basically, there's a good chance Poch would do worse with us this time. Might be worth it for the vibes but if there's another exciting candidate out there we'd probably be better off going with someone new
Depends what the new manager wants, with Udogie and Porro we have two very good, young, very attacking fullbacks. For a bit of balance we may want to play Royal occasionally (or maybe Davies) for more defensive cover and to change the shape
comment by Bãleš left boot (U22081)
posted 1 minute ago
Someone on r/coys did a great analysis on returning manager stats. Happy to give the link if anyone is interested but basically it looks this:
https://preview.redd.it/ud2e72ey30ma1.png?width=512&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=7e49e4343eb867a5bb27bdda72ca44bb63332d45
Basically, there's a good chance Poch would do worse with us this time. Might be worth it for the vibes but if there's another exciting candidate out there we'd probably be better off going with someone new
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that chart tells us absolutely nothing
Have at it Edin
https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/11jgwaj/bringing_poch_back_worth_it_analysis_of_win
They are some nice visuals but it doesn’t say anything of note really and doesn’t provide any predictive analysis. Too much circumstance for that to be anything other than a nice few graphs
Fair enough. I'd agree and I think the OP would as well, that stats alone need context in order to be able to draw meaningful conclusions. There's certainly a number of outliers there aswell, that doesn't preclude a returning manager doing better than their first stint. But there is a lot of data there, there is more meaning to be found if you care to look than just a few nice graphs. Anyway, this sentence sums it up neatly I think:
"On average, managers have a 6% worse win rate during their second stint when compared with their first. "
But I think at a high level, it supports the idea that going back rarely works as you might expect. And I think in this specific case, we had so many highs under Poch that maybe it's not worth spoiling his legacy.
Issue is that Serie A drive those stats - and that is where managers get sacked and rehired in the same season frequently (usually from failing clubs) - which I imagine drags the average down.
Too much nuance to draw any conclusion whatsoever. Even taking Ancelotti as an example, he is doing worse for Madrid than last time in terms of PPG but still has got them a CL&La Liga (or Mourinho and his successful second stint at Chelsea)
Yeah, even just a basic assumption of context would be that managers are only brought back for sentimental reasons when things are going badly wrong, meaning they're starting from a more difficult position which will negatively impact stats.
Plus managers coming back will invariably be older and potentially falling behind the curve later in their careers by the time of their second stint
I suspect it’s self fulfilling to rehire a manager and it end up worse. Usually clubs go down that route because they are in a bad position and want to try bring back a feel good factor to the club, despite the conditions being quite different to the first time round.
That said, it you are looking at rehiring a manager I’m not sure you sure be ruling it out on the basis of it not being as good as the first time. It should be judged on whether it will be better than the alternatives.
Both valid points, but neither negate the underlying stats. To your point Edin, is Serie A really so different from the PL that we can't learn something from those stats. Also, the OP did break it down by league there. Returning PL managers have the worse record of the lot
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 48 seconds ago
I suspect it’s self fulfilling to rehire a manager and it end up worse. Usually clubs go down that route because they are in a bad position and want to try bring back a feel good factor to the club, despite the conditions being quite different to the first time round.
That said, it you are looking at rehiring a manager I’m not sure you sure be ruling it out on the basis of it not being as good as the first time. It should be judged on whether it will be better than the alternatives.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Very good point Darren. As I said in my original post, I'm not suggesting we don't re hire Poch because of stats. But that we shouldn't overlook a grate candidate because of sentimentality
I appreciate that you replied to Kobbie and ignored my earlier post that made the exact same point
Both valid points, but neither negate the underlying stats. To your point Edin, is Serie A really so different from the PL that we can't learn something from those stats.
———
Yes. I’d bet good money 60% of the rehires in Serie A were just from Palermo alone. Zamparini once rehired two managers in the same season.
comment by Amanda Hugginkiss (U11574)
posted 2 minutes ago
I appreciate that you replied to Kobbie and ignored my earlier post that made the exact same point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, didn’t mean to steal your glory. Missed your post when writing mine.
comment by Amanda Hugginkiss (U11574)
posted 1 minute ago
I appreciate that you replied to Kobbie and ignored my earlier post that made the exact same point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I replied saying it's valid. But tbf I responded to Darren's comment re: rehiring reasoning. The sentimental bit is obv.
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
Both valid points, but neither negate the underlying stats. To your point Edin, is Serie A really so different from the PL that we can't learn something from those stats.
———
Yes. I’d bet good money 60% of the rehires in Serie A were just from Palermo alone. Zamparini once rehired two managers in the same season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I missed a question mark. And anyway, the OP did the work of separating the leagues out.
Anyway I'll stop spamming this. Poch be good or not, the squad is a long way off it was when we were good under him. In fact I'd say it's not much better (and definitely much more bloated) than it was when he left and we were crap.
I honestly would completely disregard everything from Serie A because of the stats being skewed by hilarious presidents like Zamparini.
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Pochs team
Page 3 of 4
posted on 7/3/23
comment by Amanda Hugginkiss (U11574)
posted 42 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 minute ago
Poch worries me. As much as I love the man, he's barely worked since leaving us in 2019 and he didnt even win the league with PSG.
I would love to have what we had before with him, not least of all his Argentine passion and commitment.
But football moves on quickly. Lest we forget that in his final 6-9 months we really struggled to break teams down, the team stopped delivering and he couldnt fix it, the form was dreadful and if it wasnt for the UCL final the sustained really poor form would stand out much more.
Tuchel, while seeming like a decent bloke and good tactician, i fear he suffers the same dull football that Conte does. His Chelsea was flying when their wing backs were, but overall the approach is very similar to Conte, he just had better players
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Solid research there. He did win the league in his only full season there.
Also the reasons behind the downfall in his last season at Spurs are so well-established and so much more than just "he couldn't fix it"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed won 3 trophies in a season and a half.
posted on 7/3/23
Come on. Don't be counting Farmers League trophies. Scrapping the barrell.
He did not get a tune out of Messi either.
posted on 7/3/23
"He's barely worked since leaving us" is a weird take too. He took a little over a year off after leaving Spurs having managed pretty much uninterrupted for ten years before that, and having basically acknowledged in public that he was burned out at Spurs.
He then did ~18 months with PSG and he's been out of work for ~9 months.
Other than all the inaccuracies though, great post
posted on 7/3/23
comment by LukaBrasi COYS (U22178)
posted 4 minutes ago
Come on. Don't be counting Farmers League trophies. Scrapping the barrell.
He did not get a tune out of Messi either.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And Messi has also been public about the fact that he found it extremely difficult to adjust in his first season at a new club/country.
I'm not saying Pochettino was a roaring success, just seems a bit pointed to view these things in such a one-dimensional manner
posted on 7/3/23
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 hours, 31 minutes ago
Poch worries me. As much as I love the man, he's barely worked since leaving us in 2019 and he didnt even win the league with PSG.
I would love to have what we had before with him, not least of all his Argentine passion and commitment.
But football moves on quickly. Lest we forget that in his final 6-9 months we really struggled to break teams down, the team stopped delivering and he couldnt fix it, the form was dreadful and if it wasnt for the UCL final the sustained really poor form would stand out much more.
Tuchel, while seeming like a decent bloke and good tactician, i fear he suffers the same dull football that Conte does. His Chelsea was flying when their wing backs were, but overall the approach is very similar to Conte, he just had better players
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Poch was burnt out at the end with us.
He needed a break.
Would be excited for him to come back, fresh.
posted on 7/3/23
I'm not the biggest fan - I think he's never going to be more than a 7/10 player - but I'd rather have him as first pick than Skipp or Sarr just now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skipp was far better than Hojberg in our last game against wolves and Sarr has been better in every game he has played
posted on 7/3/23
Emerson ahead of Porro? I would expect Porro to improve enough to displace Emerson as our 1st choice RB and if he doesn't then what a failure that signing is. Unless of course Emerson keeps his good form up and goes on to be as good as Rose/Walker were, which I can't quite see.
posted on 7/3/23
Someone on r/coys did a great analysis on returning manager stats. Happy to give the link if anyone is interested but basically it looks this:
https://preview.redd.it/ud2e72ey30ma1.png?width=512&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=7e49e4343eb867a5bb27bdda72ca44bb63332d45
Basically, there's a good chance Poch would do worse with us this time. Might be worth it for the vibes but if there's another exciting candidate out there we'd probably be better off going with someone new
posted on 7/3/23
Depends what the new manager wants, with Udogie and Porro we have two very good, young, very attacking fullbacks. For a bit of balance we may want to play Royal occasionally (or maybe Davies) for more defensive cover and to change the shape
posted on 7/3/23
comment by Bãleš left boot (U22081)
posted 1 minute ago
Someone on r/coys did a great analysis on returning manager stats. Happy to give the link if anyone is interested but basically it looks this:
https://preview.redd.it/ud2e72ey30ma1.png?width=512&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=7e49e4343eb867a5bb27bdda72ca44bb63332d45
Basically, there's a good chance Poch would do worse with us this time. Might be worth it for the vibes but if there's another exciting candidate out there we'd probably be better off going with someone new
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that chart tells us absolutely nothing
posted on 7/3/23
Have at it Edin
https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/11jgwaj/bringing_poch_back_worth_it_analysis_of_win
posted on 7/3/23
They are some nice visuals but it doesn’t say anything of note really and doesn’t provide any predictive analysis. Too much circumstance for that to be anything other than a nice few graphs
posted on 7/3/23
Fair enough. I'd agree and I think the OP would as well, that stats alone need context in order to be able to draw meaningful conclusions. There's certainly a number of outliers there aswell, that doesn't preclude a returning manager doing better than their first stint. But there is a lot of data there, there is more meaning to be found if you care to look than just a few nice graphs. Anyway, this sentence sums it up neatly I think:
"On average, managers have a 6% worse win rate during their second stint when compared with their first. "
But I think at a high level, it supports the idea that going back rarely works as you might expect. And I think in this specific case, we had so many highs under Poch that maybe it's not worth spoiling his legacy.
posted on 7/3/23
Issue is that Serie A drive those stats - and that is where managers get sacked and rehired in the same season frequently (usually from failing clubs) - which I imagine drags the average down.
Too much nuance to draw any conclusion whatsoever. Even taking Ancelotti as an example, he is doing worse for Madrid than last time in terms of PPG but still has got them a CL&La Liga (or Mourinho and his successful second stint at Chelsea)
posted on 7/3/23
Yeah, even just a basic assumption of context would be that managers are only brought back for sentimental reasons when things are going badly wrong, meaning they're starting from a more difficult position which will negatively impact stats.
Plus managers coming back will invariably be older and potentially falling behind the curve later in their careers by the time of their second stint
posted on 7/3/23
I suspect it’s self fulfilling to rehire a manager and it end up worse. Usually clubs go down that route because they are in a bad position and want to try bring back a feel good factor to the club, despite the conditions being quite different to the first time round.
That said, it you are looking at rehiring a manager I’m not sure you sure be ruling it out on the basis of it not being as good as the first time. It should be judged on whether it will be better than the alternatives.
posted on 7/3/23
Both valid points, but neither negate the underlying stats. To your point Edin, is Serie A really so different from the PL that we can't learn something from those stats. Also, the OP did break it down by league there. Returning PL managers have the worse record of the lot
posted on 7/3/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 48 seconds ago
I suspect it’s self fulfilling to rehire a manager and it end up worse. Usually clubs go down that route because they are in a bad position and want to try bring back a feel good factor to the club, despite the conditions being quite different to the first time round.
That said, it you are looking at rehiring a manager I’m not sure you sure be ruling it out on the basis of it not being as good as the first time. It should be judged on whether it will be better than the alternatives.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Very good point Darren. As I said in my original post, I'm not suggesting we don't re hire Poch because of stats. But that we shouldn't overlook a grate candidate because of sentimentality
posted on 7/3/23
I appreciate that you replied to Kobbie and ignored my earlier post that made the exact same point
posted on 7/3/23
Both valid points, but neither negate the underlying stats. To your point Edin, is Serie A really so different from the PL that we can't learn something from those stats.
———
Yes. I’d bet good money 60% of the rehires in Serie A were just from Palermo alone. Zamparini once rehired two managers in the same season.
posted on 7/3/23
comment by Amanda Hugginkiss (U11574)
posted 2 minutes ago
I appreciate that you replied to Kobbie and ignored my earlier post that made the exact same point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, didn’t mean to steal your glory. Missed your post when writing mine.
posted on 7/3/23
comment by Amanda Hugginkiss (U11574)
posted 1 minute ago
I appreciate that you replied to Kobbie and ignored my earlier post that made the exact same point
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I replied saying it's valid. But tbf I responded to Darren's comment re: rehiring reasoning. The sentimental bit is obv.
posted on 7/3/23
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
Both valid points, but neither negate the underlying stats. To your point Edin, is Serie A really so different from the PL that we can't learn something from those stats.
———
Yes. I’d bet good money 60% of the rehires in Serie A were just from Palermo alone. Zamparini once rehired two managers in the same season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I missed a question mark. And anyway, the OP did the work of separating the leagues out.
posted on 7/3/23
Anyway I'll stop spamming this. Poch be good or not, the squad is a long way off it was when we were good under him. In fact I'd say it's not much better (and definitely much more bloated) than it was when he left and we were crap.
posted on 7/3/23
I honestly would completely disregard everything from Serie A because of the stats being skewed by hilarious presidents like Zamparini.
Page 3 of 4