comment by The Very Rev Wilko (U21072)
posted 29 minutes ago
Turning around the rudderless Super tanker that at times was akin to the Exxon Valdez and at others the Jolly Roger due to some Pirate owners and a complete overhaul of a toxic culture to something dignified is a massive achievement in my book.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bang on.
So much more than just the results on pitch.
But It's all about results... nothing else matters,if you don't get them you're gone.
Analogies with ships….no mention of the Titanic then?!
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 26 minutes ago
Analogies with ships….no mention of the Titanic then?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let’s hope we do
More than just keep moving the deckchairs.
Feel bad for the many Leeds fan, but that was a pathetic performance yesterday. Just when the Club some players to overachieve they were AWOL!
Almost as bad as my grammar in my comment!!!!
I think it shows us Fat Sam is finished, I know it was a tough ask, but he got nothing from those players and last few games were shockers.
I think most have been expecting relegation all season, as mistake after mistake has been made in nearly every decision.
Hopefully new chairman soon who has a clue what he’s doing.
Playing Wednesday next season then. A few Yorkshire derbies to look forward to 😞
That Kitching had a decent game for Barnsley. Another one we let go.
It must be difficult for you to remember that you are from Yorkshire, as you fail to see anyone other than Man U as rivals 😂 oh BTW, Phillip Schofield has turned down the Leeds job, he has his reputation to think about 😂
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 11 hours, 58 minutes ago
<snip>
Bielsa has been described on this forum as ‘God, the Messiah, a genius’ …to me he was just a football coach, his legacy tarnished by not recognising the importance of strong defence…the success of a team surely has to be built on the semblance of a decent defence and an attack capable of scoring goals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I get why you're saying things about Bielsa neglecting the defensive side of things, I think that it was injuries that scuppered his tactics.
Phillips injured for a big part of his last season. No Bamford. This meant more goals conceded and fewer goals scored.
Bielsa's tactics required players at top fitness levels and having a good level of skill. The skill levels required in the Prem were far higher than those of the majority of our players.
Had we strengthened (by buying better players than Bielsa had - his only objection to buying more players) then his tactics may well have continued to work.
That first amazing season back - I think we made a lot of other teams crap themselves with our unusual way of playing. Once they sussed how to play against those tactics, we needed better players to make those tactics work still.
Bielsa was not backed properly in the transfer market in my opinion.
comment by Wetherbyterrier (U2075)
posted 2 hours, 44 minutes ago
It must be difficult for you to remember that you are from Yorkshire, as you fail to see anyone other than Man U as rivals 😂 oh BTW, Phillip Schofield has turned down the Leeds job, he has his reputation to think about 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You hear that first-hand did you?
Don't forget your wellies!
comment by LeedsFanFor47Years (U6871)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 11 hours, 58 minutes ago
<snip>
Bielsa has been described on this forum as ‘God, the Messiah, a genius’ …to me he was just a football coach, his legacy tarnished by not recognising the importance of strong defence…the success of a team surely has to be built on the semblance of a decent defence and an attack capable of scoring goals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I get why you're saying things about Bielsa neglecting the defensive side of things, I think that it was injuries that scuppered his tactics.
Phillips injured for a big part of his last season. No Bamford. This meant more goals conceded and fewer goals scored.
Bielsa's tactics required players at top fitness levels and having a good level of skill. The skill levels required in the Prem were far higher than those of the majority of our players.
Had we strengthened (by buying better players than Bielsa had - his only objection to buying more players) then his tactics may well have continued to work.
That first amazing season back - I think we made a lot of other teams crap themselves with our unusual way of playing. Once they sussed how to play against those tactics, we needed better players to make those tactics work still.
Bielsa was not backed properly in the transfer market in my opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi LeedsFan, good to hear from you….
Yes I do take some of your points but my own opinion on your injuries point is that on the whole it wouldn’t have made significant difference to conceding so many goals…Bielsa was so wedded to his tactical philosophy of man marking and extreme pressing, based on extreme fitness….which to my mind was sometimes at the expense of technical skill…interestingly much of his ideas were based on Leeds without the ball.
Do you think his tactical ideas were too radical for the team just in their first season back in the premiership, would a more orthodox game plan served the club/team better? Given the club more time to sustain its place?
Evolutionary and not revolutionary you might say…if his tactics had been successful why has no other team in the premiership copied it?
Yes it would have made a difference had we been able to buy better players, but not significantly so…the tactics were naive and could never be sustained.
I’m not sure Bielsa really understood the nature of the premier league, I felt at times he was using the team as a Guinea pig for his ideas and too stubborn to change course when it became evident it wasn’t working, the defence was a shambles….a team has two basic elements, attack and defence and you’re in trouble if the two are not integrated, surely that has to be a given, unfortunately Bielsa failed as a tactician to appreciate that.
I would like to finish though on a positive note…I did admire his attention to detail and his research, second to none…he had a great personality, compassion and added so much interest to the collective Leeds club.
My criticism is based mainly on tactics and his footballing ideas.
Unfortunately you'll stink the championship out next year as usual, can't you be chucked into league 2... Bradford are desperate for a match
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 5 hours, 21 minutes ago
comment by LeedsFanFor47Years (U6871)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 11 hours, 58 minutes ago
<snip>
Bielsa has been described on this forum as ‘God, the Messiah, a genius’ …to me he was just a football coach, his legacy tarnished by not recognising the importance of strong defence…the success of a team surely has to be built on the semblance of a decent defence and an attack capable of scoring goals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I get why you're saying things about Bielsa neglecting the defensive side of things, I think that it was injuries that scuppered his tactics.
Phillips injured for a big part of his last season. No Bamford. This meant more goals conceded and fewer goals scored.
Bielsa's tactics required players at top fitness levels and having a good level of skill. The skill levels required in the Prem were far higher than those of the majority of our players.
Had we strengthened (by buying better players than Bielsa had - his only objection to buying more players) then his tactics may well have continued to work.
That first amazing season back - I think we made a lot of other teams crap themselves with our unusual way of playing. Once they sussed how to play against those tactics, we needed better players to make those tactics work still.
Bielsa was not backed properly in the transfer market in my opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi LeedsFan, good to hear from you….
Yes I do take some of your points but my own opinion on your injuries point is that on the whole it wouldn’t have made significant difference to conceding so many goals…Bielsa was so wedded to his tactical philosophy of man marking and extreme pressing, based on extreme fitness….which to my mind was sometimes at the expense of technical skill…interestingly much of his ideas were based on Leeds without the ball.
Do you think his tactical ideas were too radical for the team just in their first season back in the premiership, would a more orthodox game plan served the club/team better? Given the club more time to sustain its place?
Evolutionary and not revolutionary you might say…if his tactics had been successful why has no other team in the premiership copied it?
Yes it would have made a difference had we been able to buy better players, but not significantly so…the tactics were naive and could never be sustained.
I’m not sure Bielsa really understood the nature of the premier league, I felt at times he was using the team as a Guinea pig for his ideas and too stubborn to change course when it became evident it wasn’t working, the defence was a shambles….a team has two basic elements, attack and defence and you’re in trouble if the two are not integrated, surely that has to be a given, unfortunately Bielsa failed as a tactician to appreciate that.
I would like to finish though on a positive note…I did admire his attention to detail and his research, second to none…he had a great personality, compassion and added so much interest to the collective Leeds club.
My criticism is based mainly on tactics and his footballing ideas.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
47, I agree with your assessment, look what Bielsa achieved with Championship players, give him better players and that systems sweeps all before it.
NJS, I also get what you'e saying, but if not such great tactics, why was his win percentage so high, why do so many coaches hold him in the highest of regards and why is he so sought after around teh world for consultancy?
There are certainly challenges around his system, which I highlighted during his time with us, namely:
small squad with lack of rotation means its hard to have quality in sidelines as they know they're not going to play much but have to work really hard to stay fit.
great coach should be able to sort out defence, that's a coaching issue.
great coach should be able to come uo with a solution for our inability to score from corners,
For all nyoru criticism of his work on us without the ball, the results were we rarely didnt have teh ball, such was its effectiveness in our retaining possession and my word we could play some exhilarating stuff with teh ball.
Why should he be mentioned in same breath as other greats?
He improved all teh players, just listen to Allardyce saying players couldnt be improved, even Don said you couldnt make good players great players. For a couple of seasons this is exactly what Bielsa did.
he made us fall in love with football again, he had more integrity in his little finger than any owners of Leeds had for years.
He never, ever bad mouthed the club or players....ever.
He did more to raise our profile in world football than anyone at Leeds had done for 20 years.
Some fair comments there Jonty but I would take issue with you on some of your opinions.
You and LeedsFan write given better players the team would sweep all before it…this to me is being overly optimistic, very much wishful thinking, you have no proof this would be the case….better players yes but would the tactics have changed….why would you use a better calibre of player to man mark for example?
Both you and LeedsFan seem to want it both ways to win your argument….you extoll the brilliant football played, ‘exhilarating’ at times you say Jonty, with that crop of players, but then it would have been much better with buying players to replace them!
Yes it was great to watch the team perform so brilliantly at times…but for what span of time did it last?
To me it was like a typical English summer, a couple of beautiful sunny weeks then quickly descends into dross!
As for Bielsa’s reputation among the coaching elite, well that’s fair enough but so many coaches are called upon to talk and theorise about the game, nothing new about that. I pose the question away from the theory and into the practical playing in games, how would you describe his record, with other clubs?
How long did he stay and did he build a lasting legacy in that club, did he do enough to prove he was among the elite coaches?
Does anyone on this forum play chess? Well I do and so does my son, though he’s a much better player than me. We both endlessly look for a better defence to give us that springboard to attack and win the game, the books, videos and all sorts of advice are mammoth.
I wonder if Bielsa ever played chess? The importance of defensive strategy is key to winning games, how many times did you say to yourself ‘where’s the defence’…I did so many times!
Finally you write that Revie stated that you can’t make good players into great players…well if that’s true I would like to know the context….because he made so many great players from good players, the list is very impressive, he improved players out of all recognition starting from his early days as manager right up to 1974.
Again I would like to reiterate that a coach has to integrate a defence and attack….I’m afraid the bare facts of goals conceded during most of his tenure are proof he failed and that’s why he got the sack.
Thing is you can’t cherry pick and change the bits you like from a system without knock on effects. You just have to accept that all systems have strengths and weaknesses. Bielsa’s way to ‘defend’ was to dominate the ball so you don’t have to defend much… for that he wanted ball playing defenders. They were expected to get tight/man mark to to cut out/block transitions early.
Marsch had a different philosophy - Defence was a means of attack by winning the ball back in positions where we could then overload in transition.
Neither focussed on ‘traditional’ defensive attributes so we didn’t buy players who had them. And both systems left defenders exposed if the press was beaten. Personally I think marsch/orta underestimated the need for pacy athletic defenders to play this way in this league.
Try and play a gracia way or allardyce way? There’s no point in my view trying to play defensively with players who can’t do it at that level… and you lose the attacking benefits of the predecessors’ systems.
Hang on, I think either people didnt watch us and have some weird agenda.
1st season - 3rd lowest goals against
2nd season - 1st lowest goals against
3rd season - midtable for goals conceded
4th season - 2nd highest, absolute shocker, but a ten game period screwed the results abit, when half of side was out.
This is with attacking tactics.
Overall we we’re pretty good defensively under Bielsa.
Much much better than for last 18 months
Overall we we’re pretty good defensively under Bielsa.
-----------------
Are you on drug's?
Good debate. I hope we can all agree that Bielsa has to be admired for his integrity and the way he never blamed the players when things went wrong as stated by many others on here. He never moaned about injuries or VAR or refereeing when he could easily have done so.
Re the defending, the Premier League is very different to the Championship. There are better, quicker more technically gifted players there and we tried to deal with them with the same level of defender we had in the Championship.
Buying a German and Spanish international centre back I thought would make a huge difference. In reality they both ended up injured straight away and we never had a settled back 4 (which is by the way how great defences are made)
We ended up playing a cobbled together defence with Ayling sometimes at CB, Cooper at CB when fit, a rookie Struijk at CB converted winger at LB (Dallas) etc.
The unwillingness to buy established PL experienced players and try to scour European leagues in the hope of striking it lucky with bargain priced alternatives is what has caused our downfall.
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 2 hours, 54 minutes ago
Some fair comments there Jonty but I would take issue with you on some of your opinions.
You and LeedsFan write given better players the team would sweep all before it…this to me is being overly optimistic, very much wishful thinking, you have no proof this would be the case….better players yes but would the tactics have changed….why would you use a better calibre of player to man mark for example?
Both you and LeedsFan seem to want it both ways to win your argument….you extoll the brilliant football played, ‘exhilarating’ at times you say Jonty, with that crop of players, but then it would have been much better with buying players to replace them!
Yes it was great to watch the team perform so brilliantly at times…but for what span of time did it last?
To me it was like a typical English summer, a couple of beautiful sunny weeks then quickly descends into dross!
As for Bielsa’s reputation among the coaching elite, well that’s fair enough but so many coaches are called upon to talk and theorise about the game, nothing new about that. I pose the question away from the theory and into the practical playing in games, how would you describe his record, with other clubs?
How long did he stay and did he build a lasting legacy in that club, did he do enough to prove he was among the elite coaches?
Does anyone on this forum play chess? Well I do and so does my son, though he’s a much better player than me. We both endlessly look for a better defence to give us that springboard to attack and win the game, the books, videos and all sorts of advice are mammoth.
I wonder if Bielsa ever played chess? The importance of defensive strategy is key to winning games, how many times did you say to yourself ‘where’s the defence’…I did so many times!
Finally you write that Revie stated that you can’t make good players into great players…well if that’s true I would like to know the context….because he made so many great players from good players, the list is very impressive, he improved players out of all recognition starting from his early days as manager right up to 1974.
Again I would like to reiterate that a coach has to integrate a defence and attack….I’m afraid the bare facts of goals conceded during most of his tenure are proof he failed and that’s why he got the sack.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally you write that Revie stated that you can’t make good players into great players…well if that’s true I would like to know the context….because he made so many great players from good players, the list is very impressive, he improved players out of all recognition starting from his early days as manager right up to 1974.
----
From 3:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhrXV0i9MHU
I'm surprised you forgot this.
The context was more a continuation of lower league players….surely you don’t believe that Revie didn’t think he or the training staff couldn’t improve good players into great players, or first class players, that would be absurd, you’ve taken it out of context
To think you can’t make good players even better is to fly into all ridiculous opinions…some great players started their careers as very unpromising prospects.
It’s important to acknowledge that football coaches maybe very good at their job but it doesn’t mean that every word or sentence they may say is written on marble or stone as the WORD we should all say is the truth and nothing but the truth….many speak with forked tongue…not suggesting Revie did but in my opinion all comments, via the media outlets from coaches and managers should come with health warnings.
Revie was spot on
There is only so much, you can improve a player.
Strangely, the sides, who win things, have the best players 🤷🏻♂️
comment by LeedsFanFor47Years (U6871)
posted 16 hours, 4 minutes ago
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 11 hours, 58 minutes ago
<snip>
Bielsa has been described on this forum as ‘God, the Messiah, a genius’ …to me he was just a football coach, his legacy tarnished by not recognising the importance of strong defence…the success of a team surely has to be built on the semblance of a decent defence and an attack capable of scoring goals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I get why you're saying things about Bielsa neglecting the defensive side of things, I think that it was injuries that scuppered his tactics.
Phillips injured for a big part of his last season. No Bamford. This meant more goals conceded and fewer goals scored.
Bielsa's tactics required players at top fitness levels and having a good level of skill. The skill levels required in the Prem were far higher than those of the majority of our players.
Had we strengthened (by buying better players than Bielsa had - his only objection to buying more players) then his tactics may well have continued to work.
That first amazing season back - I think we made a lot of other teams crap themselves with our unusual way of playing. Once they sussed how to play against those tactics, we needed better players to make those tactics work still.
Bielsa was not backed properly in the transfer market in my opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree that injuries played a part, however, not sure that Bamford being AWOL again made much difference.
comment by Lowfields73 (U21886)
posted 3 hours, 58 minutes ago
Overall we we’re pretty good defensively under Bielsa.
-----------------
Are you on drug's?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
😂
comment by The Light Brigade (U22847)
posted 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
comment by Lowfields73 (U21886)
posted 3 hours, 58 minutes ago
Overall we we’re pretty good defensively under Bielsa.
-----------------
Are you on drug's?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
whats funny ?
In first two season seasons, we had lowest and 3rd lowest goals conceded.
First season in prem we had a few big defeats, but people forgot Bielsa tightened it up second half of season.
Only four goals conceded at home against Liverpool, skum, chelsea, arsenal, spurs and man city.
Then a mad two months, where had injuries and we just kept getting picked off clouds people judgement of the 3 and half years.
We was overall good defensively, or are people rewritting history.
And this while playing attacking open football
Sign in if you want to comment
The morning after
Page 2 of 3
posted on 29/5/23
comment by The Very Rev Wilko (U21072)
posted 29 minutes ago
Turning around the rudderless Super tanker that at times was akin to the Exxon Valdez and at others the Jolly Roger due to some Pirate owners and a complete overhaul of a toxic culture to something dignified is a massive achievement in my book.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bang on.
So much more than just the results on pitch.
posted on 29/5/23
But It's all about results... nothing else matters,if you don't get them you're gone.
posted on 29/5/23
Analogies with ships….no mention of the Titanic then?!
posted on 29/5/23
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 26 minutes ago
Analogies with ships….no mention of the Titanic then?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let’s hope we do
More than just keep moving the deckchairs.
posted on 29/5/23
Feel bad for the many Leeds fan, but that was a pathetic performance yesterday. Just when the Club some players to overachieve they were AWOL!
posted on 29/5/23
Almost as bad as my grammar in my comment!!!!
posted on 29/5/23
I think it shows us Fat Sam is finished, I know it was a tough ask, but he got nothing from those players and last few games were shockers.
I think most have been expecting relegation all season, as mistake after mistake has been made in nearly every decision.
Hopefully new chairman soon who has a clue what he’s doing.
posted on 29/5/23
Playing Wednesday next season then. A few Yorkshire derbies to look forward to 😞
That Kitching had a decent game for Barnsley. Another one we let go.
posted on 29/5/23
It must be difficult for you to remember that you are from Yorkshire, as you fail to see anyone other than Man U as rivals 😂 oh BTW, Phillip Schofield has turned down the Leeds job, he has his reputation to think about 😂
posted on 29/5/23
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 11 hours, 58 minutes ago
<snip>
Bielsa has been described on this forum as ‘God, the Messiah, a genius’ …to me he was just a football coach, his legacy tarnished by not recognising the importance of strong defence…the success of a team surely has to be built on the semblance of a decent defence and an attack capable of scoring goals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I get why you're saying things about Bielsa neglecting the defensive side of things, I think that it was injuries that scuppered his tactics.
Phillips injured for a big part of his last season. No Bamford. This meant more goals conceded and fewer goals scored.
Bielsa's tactics required players at top fitness levels and having a good level of skill. The skill levels required in the Prem were far higher than those of the majority of our players.
Had we strengthened (by buying better players than Bielsa had - his only objection to buying more players) then his tactics may well have continued to work.
That first amazing season back - I think we made a lot of other teams crap themselves with our unusual way of playing. Once they sussed how to play against those tactics, we needed better players to make those tactics work still.
Bielsa was not backed properly in the transfer market in my opinion.
posted on 29/5/23
comment by Wetherbyterrier (U2075)
posted 2 hours, 44 minutes ago
It must be difficult for you to remember that you are from Yorkshire, as you fail to see anyone other than Man U as rivals 😂 oh BTW, Phillip Schofield has turned down the Leeds job, he has his reputation to think about 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You hear that first-hand did you?
Don't forget your wellies!
posted on 30/5/23
comment by LeedsFanFor47Years (U6871)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 11 hours, 58 minutes ago
<snip>
Bielsa has been described on this forum as ‘God, the Messiah, a genius’ …to me he was just a football coach, his legacy tarnished by not recognising the importance of strong defence…the success of a team surely has to be built on the semblance of a decent defence and an attack capable of scoring goals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I get why you're saying things about Bielsa neglecting the defensive side of things, I think that it was injuries that scuppered his tactics.
Phillips injured for a big part of his last season. No Bamford. This meant more goals conceded and fewer goals scored.
Bielsa's tactics required players at top fitness levels and having a good level of skill. The skill levels required in the Prem were far higher than those of the majority of our players.
Had we strengthened (by buying better players than Bielsa had - his only objection to buying more players) then his tactics may well have continued to work.
That first amazing season back - I think we made a lot of other teams crap themselves with our unusual way of playing. Once they sussed how to play against those tactics, we needed better players to make those tactics work still.
Bielsa was not backed properly in the transfer market in my opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi LeedsFan, good to hear from you….
Yes I do take some of your points but my own opinion on your injuries point is that on the whole it wouldn’t have made significant difference to conceding so many goals…Bielsa was so wedded to his tactical philosophy of man marking and extreme pressing, based on extreme fitness….which to my mind was sometimes at the expense of technical skill…interestingly much of his ideas were based on Leeds without the ball.
Do you think his tactical ideas were too radical for the team just in their first season back in the premiership, would a more orthodox game plan served the club/team better? Given the club more time to sustain its place?
Evolutionary and not revolutionary you might say…if his tactics had been successful why has no other team in the premiership copied it?
Yes it would have made a difference had we been able to buy better players, but not significantly so…the tactics were naive and could never be sustained.
I’m not sure Bielsa really understood the nature of the premier league, I felt at times he was using the team as a Guinea pig for his ideas and too stubborn to change course when it became evident it wasn’t working, the defence was a shambles….a team has two basic elements, attack and defence and you’re in trouble if the two are not integrated, surely that has to be a given, unfortunately Bielsa failed as a tactician to appreciate that.
I would like to finish though on a positive note…I did admire his attention to detail and his research, second to none…he had a great personality, compassion and added so much interest to the collective Leeds club.
My criticism is based mainly on tactics and his footballing ideas.
posted on 30/5/23
Unfortunately you'll stink the championship out next year as usual, can't you be chucked into league 2... Bradford are desperate for a match
posted on 30/5/23
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 5 hours, 21 minutes ago
comment by LeedsFanFor47Years (U6871)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 11 hours, 58 minutes ago
<snip>
Bielsa has been described on this forum as ‘God, the Messiah, a genius’ …to me he was just a football coach, his legacy tarnished by not recognising the importance of strong defence…the success of a team surely has to be built on the semblance of a decent defence and an attack capable of scoring goals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I get why you're saying things about Bielsa neglecting the defensive side of things, I think that it was injuries that scuppered his tactics.
Phillips injured for a big part of his last season. No Bamford. This meant more goals conceded and fewer goals scored.
Bielsa's tactics required players at top fitness levels and having a good level of skill. The skill levels required in the Prem were far higher than those of the majority of our players.
Had we strengthened (by buying better players than Bielsa had - his only objection to buying more players) then his tactics may well have continued to work.
That first amazing season back - I think we made a lot of other teams crap themselves with our unusual way of playing. Once they sussed how to play against those tactics, we needed better players to make those tactics work still.
Bielsa was not backed properly in the transfer market in my opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi LeedsFan, good to hear from you….
Yes I do take some of your points but my own opinion on your injuries point is that on the whole it wouldn’t have made significant difference to conceding so many goals…Bielsa was so wedded to his tactical philosophy of man marking and extreme pressing, based on extreme fitness….which to my mind was sometimes at the expense of technical skill…interestingly much of his ideas were based on Leeds without the ball.
Do you think his tactical ideas were too radical for the team just in their first season back in the premiership, would a more orthodox game plan served the club/team better? Given the club more time to sustain its place?
Evolutionary and not revolutionary you might say…if his tactics had been successful why has no other team in the premiership copied it?
Yes it would have made a difference had we been able to buy better players, but not significantly so…the tactics were naive and could never be sustained.
I’m not sure Bielsa really understood the nature of the premier league, I felt at times he was using the team as a Guinea pig for his ideas and too stubborn to change course when it became evident it wasn’t working, the defence was a shambles….a team has two basic elements, attack and defence and you’re in trouble if the two are not integrated, surely that has to be a given, unfortunately Bielsa failed as a tactician to appreciate that.
I would like to finish though on a positive note…I did admire his attention to detail and his research, second to none…he had a great personality, compassion and added so much interest to the collective Leeds club.
My criticism is based mainly on tactics and his footballing ideas.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
47, I agree with your assessment, look what Bielsa achieved with Championship players, give him better players and that systems sweeps all before it.
NJS, I also get what you'e saying, but if not such great tactics, why was his win percentage so high, why do so many coaches hold him in the highest of regards and why is he so sought after around teh world for consultancy?
There are certainly challenges around his system, which I highlighted during his time with us, namely:
small squad with lack of rotation means its hard to have quality in sidelines as they know they're not going to play much but have to work really hard to stay fit.
great coach should be able to sort out defence, that's a coaching issue.
great coach should be able to come uo with a solution for our inability to score from corners,
For all nyoru criticism of his work on us without the ball, the results were we rarely didnt have teh ball, such was its effectiveness in our retaining possession and my word we could play some exhilarating stuff with teh ball.
Why should he be mentioned in same breath as other greats?
He improved all teh players, just listen to Allardyce saying players couldnt be improved, even Don said you couldnt make good players great players. For a couple of seasons this is exactly what Bielsa did.
he made us fall in love with football again, he had more integrity in his little finger than any owners of Leeds had for years.
He never, ever bad mouthed the club or players....ever.
He did more to raise our profile in world football than anyone at Leeds had done for 20 years.
posted on 30/5/23
Some fair comments there Jonty but I would take issue with you on some of your opinions.
You and LeedsFan write given better players the team would sweep all before it…this to me is being overly optimistic, very much wishful thinking, you have no proof this would be the case….better players yes but would the tactics have changed….why would you use a better calibre of player to man mark for example?
Both you and LeedsFan seem to want it both ways to win your argument….you extoll the brilliant football played, ‘exhilarating’ at times you say Jonty, with that crop of players, but then it would have been much better with buying players to replace them!
Yes it was great to watch the team perform so brilliantly at times…but for what span of time did it last?
To me it was like a typical English summer, a couple of beautiful sunny weeks then quickly descends into dross!
As for Bielsa’s reputation among the coaching elite, well that’s fair enough but so many coaches are called upon to talk and theorise about the game, nothing new about that. I pose the question away from the theory and into the practical playing in games, how would you describe his record, with other clubs?
How long did he stay and did he build a lasting legacy in that club, did he do enough to prove he was among the elite coaches?
Does anyone on this forum play chess? Well I do and so does my son, though he’s a much better player than me. We both endlessly look for a better defence to give us that springboard to attack and win the game, the books, videos and all sorts of advice are mammoth.
I wonder if Bielsa ever played chess? The importance of defensive strategy is key to winning games, how many times did you say to yourself ‘where’s the defence’…I did so many times!
Finally you write that Revie stated that you can’t make good players into great players…well if that’s true I would like to know the context….because he made so many great players from good players, the list is very impressive, he improved players out of all recognition starting from his early days as manager right up to 1974.
Again I would like to reiterate that a coach has to integrate a defence and attack….I’m afraid the bare facts of goals conceded during most of his tenure are proof he failed and that’s why he got the sack.
posted on 30/5/23
Thing is you can’t cherry pick and change the bits you like from a system without knock on effects. You just have to accept that all systems have strengths and weaknesses. Bielsa’s way to ‘defend’ was to dominate the ball so you don’t have to defend much… for that he wanted ball playing defenders. They were expected to get tight/man mark to to cut out/block transitions early.
Marsch had a different philosophy - Defence was a means of attack by winning the ball back in positions where we could then overload in transition.
Neither focussed on ‘traditional’ defensive attributes so we didn’t buy players who had them. And both systems left defenders exposed if the press was beaten. Personally I think marsch/orta underestimated the need for pacy athletic defenders to play this way in this league.
Try and play a gracia way or allardyce way? There’s no point in my view trying to play defensively with players who can’t do it at that level… and you lose the attacking benefits of the predecessors’ systems.
posted on 30/5/23
Hang on, I think either people didnt watch us and have some weird agenda.
1st season - 3rd lowest goals against
2nd season - 1st lowest goals against
3rd season - midtable for goals conceded
4th season - 2nd highest, absolute shocker, but a ten game period screwed the results abit, when half of side was out.
This is with attacking tactics.
Overall we we’re pretty good defensively under Bielsa.
Much much better than for last 18 months
posted on 30/5/23
Overall we we’re pretty good defensively under Bielsa.
-----------------
Are you on drug's?
posted on 30/5/23
Good debate. I hope we can all agree that Bielsa has to be admired for his integrity and the way he never blamed the players when things went wrong as stated by many others on here. He never moaned about injuries or VAR or refereeing when he could easily have done so.
Re the defending, the Premier League is very different to the Championship. There are better, quicker more technically gifted players there and we tried to deal with them with the same level of defender we had in the Championship.
Buying a German and Spanish international centre back I thought would make a huge difference. In reality they both ended up injured straight away and we never had a settled back 4 (which is by the way how great defences are made)
We ended up playing a cobbled together defence with Ayling sometimes at CB, Cooper at CB when fit, a rookie Struijk at CB converted winger at LB (Dallas) etc.
The unwillingness to buy established PL experienced players and try to scour European leagues in the hope of striking it lucky with bargain priced alternatives is what has caused our downfall.
posted on 30/5/23
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 2 hours, 54 minutes ago
Some fair comments there Jonty but I would take issue with you on some of your opinions.
You and LeedsFan write given better players the team would sweep all before it…this to me is being overly optimistic, very much wishful thinking, you have no proof this would be the case….better players yes but would the tactics have changed….why would you use a better calibre of player to man mark for example?
Both you and LeedsFan seem to want it both ways to win your argument….you extoll the brilliant football played, ‘exhilarating’ at times you say Jonty, with that crop of players, but then it would have been much better with buying players to replace them!
Yes it was great to watch the team perform so brilliantly at times…but for what span of time did it last?
To me it was like a typical English summer, a couple of beautiful sunny weeks then quickly descends into dross!
As for Bielsa’s reputation among the coaching elite, well that’s fair enough but so many coaches are called upon to talk and theorise about the game, nothing new about that. I pose the question away from the theory and into the practical playing in games, how would you describe his record, with other clubs?
How long did he stay and did he build a lasting legacy in that club, did he do enough to prove he was among the elite coaches?
Does anyone on this forum play chess? Well I do and so does my son, though he’s a much better player than me. We both endlessly look for a better defence to give us that springboard to attack and win the game, the books, videos and all sorts of advice are mammoth.
I wonder if Bielsa ever played chess? The importance of defensive strategy is key to winning games, how many times did you say to yourself ‘where’s the defence’…I did so many times!
Finally you write that Revie stated that you can’t make good players into great players…well if that’s true I would like to know the context….because he made so many great players from good players, the list is very impressive, he improved players out of all recognition starting from his early days as manager right up to 1974.
Again I would like to reiterate that a coach has to integrate a defence and attack….I’m afraid the bare facts of goals conceded during most of his tenure are proof he failed and that’s why he got the sack.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally you write that Revie stated that you can’t make good players into great players…well if that’s true I would like to know the context….because he made so many great players from good players, the list is very impressive, he improved players out of all recognition starting from his early days as manager right up to 1974.
----
From 3:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhrXV0i9MHU
I'm surprised you forgot this.
posted on 30/5/23
The context was more a continuation of lower league players….surely you don’t believe that Revie didn’t think he or the training staff couldn’t improve good players into great players, or first class players, that would be absurd, you’ve taken it out of context
To think you can’t make good players even better is to fly into all ridiculous opinions…some great players started their careers as very unpromising prospects.
It’s important to acknowledge that football coaches maybe very good at their job but it doesn’t mean that every word or sentence they may say is written on marble or stone as the WORD we should all say is the truth and nothing but the truth….many speak with forked tongue…not suggesting Revie did but in my opinion all comments, via the media outlets from coaches and managers should come with health warnings.
posted on 30/5/23
Revie was spot on
There is only so much, you can improve a player.
Strangely, the sides, who win things, have the best players 🤷🏻♂️
posted on 30/5/23
comment by LeedsFanFor47Years (U6871)
posted 16 hours, 4 minutes ago
comment by NJS (U8272)
posted 11 hours, 58 minutes ago
<snip>
Bielsa has been described on this forum as ‘God, the Messiah, a genius’ …to me he was just a football coach, his legacy tarnished by not recognising the importance of strong defence…the success of a team surely has to be built on the semblance of a decent defence and an attack capable of scoring goals.
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While I get why you're saying things about Bielsa neglecting the defensive side of things, I think that it was injuries that scuppered his tactics.
Phillips injured for a big part of his last season. No Bamford. This meant more goals conceded and fewer goals scored.
Bielsa's tactics required players at top fitness levels and having a good level of skill. The skill levels required in the Prem were far higher than those of the majority of our players.
Had we strengthened (by buying better players than Bielsa had - his only objection to buying more players) then his tactics may well have continued to work.
That first amazing season back - I think we made a lot of other teams crap themselves with our unusual way of playing. Once they sussed how to play against those tactics, we needed better players to make those tactics work still.
Bielsa was not backed properly in the transfer market in my opinion.
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Agree that injuries played a part, however, not sure that Bamford being AWOL again made much difference.
posted on 30/5/23
comment by Lowfields73 (U21886)
posted 3 hours, 58 minutes ago
Overall we we’re pretty good defensively under Bielsa.
-----------------
Are you on drug's?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
😂
posted on 30/5/23
comment by The Light Brigade (U22847)
posted 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
comment by Lowfields73 (U21886)
posted 3 hours, 58 minutes ago
Overall we we’re pretty good defensively under Bielsa.
-----------------
Are you on drug's?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
😂
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whats funny ?
In first two season seasons, we had lowest and 3rd lowest goals conceded.
First season in prem we had a few big defeats, but people forgot Bielsa tightened it up second half of season.
Only four goals conceded at home against Liverpool, skum, chelsea, arsenal, spurs and man city.
Then a mad two months, where had injuries and we just kept getting picked off clouds people judgement of the 3 and half years.
We was overall good defensively, or are people rewritting history.
And this while playing attacking open football
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