Media outlets. Jamie Carragher and every other fool who make such bold claims after one game have shot their bolts.
After two games last season we weren't going to finish top 8 and Martinez was going to be a flop.
People losing their mind over that game on Monday. We often start seasons slowly.
No doubt carragher will say that this Nintendo guy is the next Milner and will be putting in quality performances for years to come, even though he's about the sane age as Casemiro but without the CL medals.
If Casemiro is as bad as he was against Wolves for the rest of the season he’s finished. But we all know that the first game of the season is often a shocker for the very best of players so I’m sure he’ll eventually shake it off.
I wouldn’t worry about Carragher and the like, they are paid to get reactions and pundits are becoming more and more preposterous to get clicks.
The issue United have isn’t just the personnel in midfield but also the tactics. On Monday they pushed both Mount and Bruno high (and at times Casemiro was going beyond as well) while using Casemiro and and inverted Shaw to form a box midfield as is the current fad. The issue with this many fold, firstly it is totally reliant on good possession in the forward areas which none of our players are capable of, secondly Casemiro has never been the most mobile and just won’t be able to match powerful runners from deep, it also leaves us open to exposure in the left back position, as well as blunting one of our best attacking options by restricting Shaws ability to overlap. If we continue with this set up we will be tipped to shreds by any decent team.
Has Graeme Souness given his thoughts on Onana yet?
In fairness Carragher was spot on about Ronaldo’s return from day 1 also.
This isn’t based off 1 game.
While he was good for large parts of last season the warning signs were there.
He obviously isn't the same player he was in
Madrid but still a great player
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 14 minutes ago
In fairness Carragher was spot on about Ronaldo’s return from day 1 also.
This isn’t based off 1 game.
While he was good for large parts of last season the warning signs were there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He wasn't right about Martinez though.
Casemiro did look really off the pace against wolves, but I'm sure it's just lacking match sharpness, which whilst frustrating, can be gained.
Of course he’s going to be ‘in decline’ at this stage but his performance last week was that of someone who isn’t at their full fitness, which is still not an excuse, he’s had a pre season same as everyone else.
You could drop prime Kante/Makalele into our line up last week and if the rest of our team shape was the same they’d have been labelled as shiyte too.
Our system wasn't working and Casemiro was left isolated with several quick runners breaking on him repeatedly throughout the game was acres of space to enjoy.
What is anyone expecting him to do in those situations? I can understand people who don't really play the game not understanding this, but Carragher should know better.
Casemiro didn't help his cause by taking up some odd positions and chasing the ball about at times but the issue was that we didn't play the setup very well at all and Wolves had a plan for it which they executed and exploited all game.
I am a bit surprised at how much of a mess the system was given that it would have been worked on for the last couple of months but there's no need to panic after one game in which we ultimately secured the three points.
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 14 minutes ago
In fairness Carragher was spot on about Ronaldo’s return from day 1 also.
This isn’t based off 1 game.
While he was good for large parts of last season the warning signs were there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He wasn't right about Martinez though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point too.
The worrying thing with Casemiro is that he was almost as poor as last Monday for a few months towards the end of last season.
Hopefully he can turn it around but I’ve a feeling we’ll be here next summer with an expensive asset that will be difficult to shift.
DoireDevilBhoy
Agree to some extent and what you write chimes with my initial 'eye test' view of the match. But I've read some detailed assessments of the match by people who re-watched carefully and who are better than me at analysing formations, which has changed my perceptions.
One of the main points was that individual decision making in terms of positioning and rashly diving into risky tackles often resulted in the breakdown of the 'rest defensive' structure. Casemiro was particularly criticised for that.
Another thing I hadn't appreciated during the match was that Shaw wasn't always the one who tucked in next to Casemiro when we were in possession. There were two build-up patterns, with either Shaw or Lisandro slotting in next to Casemiro. I'll try to watch out for that more in future.
As to the OP:
- We'll have to watch Casemiro's performances, as Monday was poor. I'd imagine a player of his intelligence will fine-tune the tactical mistakes. The real worry would be if his legs have gone for the level he needs to perform at in the PL.
- When he joined last summer, seasoned Real Madrid watchers remarked that Casemiro has a tendency to start seasons in mediocre form and then pick up momentum.
- Carragher's hot take last year was a thumbs down on the Casemiro signing, so we should hardly be surprised that he's seeing confirmation that he was right from the start in his richly remunerated column for a radical-right newspaper.
Casemiro is a big name though worldwide at least, massive champions league respect on his name.
Nailed on for Saudi and big big salary, we might actually be able to move him on easier than the rest of the overpaid shiyte players we have.
Whether or not he’s being written off too early he definitely came back to pre season looking like he’d eaten a few too many feijoadas.
At lot of United fans on Twitter using Casemiro’s trophy cabinet to say he’s currently better than Rice or Caicedo. That’s not the argument here.
https://youtu.be/zCX78-Xnafo
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 56 seconds ago
Another thing I hadn't appreciated during the match was that Shaw wasn't always the one who tucked in next to Casemiro when we were in possession. There were two build-up patterns, with either Shaw or Lisandro slotting in next to Casemiro. I'll try to watch out for that more in future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd pointed this out during preseason; Martinez (or whoever the LCB is) is regularly stepping into a CDM position, presumably with the idea that Onana steps up much higher than DDG would to kind of provide the deeper passing option but also to enable Mount to push up high whilst still having a progressive passer fill in the deeper midfield space.
On paper that sounds great, though I'll admit that I'm skeptical at having a kind of fluid CB who might find themselves in awkward positions in certain moments of the game.
Also my issue with Shaw tucking in is that he's a much bigger threat when he gets up to steam and drives forward (and he's far from the best attacking FB around as it is). With our RB options being even more inferior going forwards than Shaw, we lose a lot of attacking threat when Shaw goes infield.
Getting all of those more fluid defensive positions correct in possession will obviously take time and will get caught in transition in the meantime, but there's also a sense that the players we have in the FB areas are less than ideal (Shaw being the more adaptable) in most systems. I can't help but think that the way the defence shifts about in possession looks somewhat unnecessarily complicated and over-thought.
I guess we'll see how it pans out!
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 4 minutes ago
At lot of United fans on Twitter using Casemiro’s trophy cabinet to say he’s currently better than Rice or Caicedo. That’s not the argument here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's how you argue on Twitter though.
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 56 seconds ago
Another thing I hadn't appreciated during the match was that Shaw wasn't always the one who tucked in next to Casemiro when we were in possession. There were two build-up patterns, with either Shaw or Lisandro slotting in next to Casemiro. I'll try to watch out for that more in future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd pointed this out during preseason; Martinez (or whoever the LCB is) is regularly stepping into a CDM position, presumably with the idea that Onana steps up much higher than DDG would to kind of provide the deeper passing option but also to enable Mount to push up high whilst still having a progressive passer fill in the deeper midfield space.
On paper that sounds great, though I'll admit that I'm skeptical at having a kind of fluid CB who might find themselves in awkward positions in certain moments of the game.
Also my issue with Shaw tucking in is that he's a much bigger threat when he gets up to steam and drives forward (and he's far from the best attacking FB around as it is). With our RB options being even more inferior going forwards than Shaw, we lose a lot of attacking threat when Shaw goes infield.
Getting all of those more fluid defensive positions correct in possession will obviously take time and will get caught in transition in the meantime, but there's also a sense that the players we have in the FB areas are less than ideal (Shaw being the more adaptable) in most systems. I can't help but think that the way the defence shifts about in possession looks somewhat unnecessarily complicated and over-thought.
I guess we'll see how it pans out!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Berba
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 15 minutes ago
DoireDevilBhoy
Agree to some extent and what you write chimes with my initial 'eye test' view of the match. But I've read some detailed assessments of the match by people who re-watched carefully and who are better than me at analysing formations, which has changed my perceptions.
One of the main points was that individual decision making in terms of positioning and rashly diving into risky tackles often resulted in the breakdown of the 'rest defensive' structure. Casemiro was particularly criticised for that.
Another thing I hadn't appreciated during the match was that Shaw wasn't always the one who tucked in next to Casemiro when we were in possession. There were two build-up patterns, with either Shaw or Lisandro slotting in next to Casemiro. I'll try to watch out for that more in future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with what you’ve said here, but I’d argue that Casemiro jumping in was as a result of being left isolated rather than the cause of the issue.
Also agree with Martinez stepping in, and I think AWB did so at times too, my point on Shaw was that he did it most often and it negatively impacts us arguably more than the other two doing so.
Overall tho I think one of the main issues (as ETH seemed at pains to point out) was ball retention. If you are going to play this system then you need to retain the ball, so for me the most galling thing is that we are trying it at all when we have Bruno, Rashy, Mount, Garnacho and Anthony (and even add in Martial and Sancho). All who are ‘moments’ players who try things, ball retention is not a strength of any of those players.
This Casemiro narrative was always in play but his performances last season shut everyone up.
Now after 1 game and a slightly more attacking midfield line-up, he's looking a bit more exposed and that is not playing to his strengths. You could see vs Wolves that aggressive running through the midfield exposed him & your setup.
As a more general comment, my observations are that United continue to struggle to find the balance right in wanting to play a more expansive attacking game. Under Ole you did well but largely playing counter attacking football, when he tried to be more expansive it didnt work so well.
ETH seems to be having a similar ride. Last season you were not a pure counter attacking team but that's where a lot of your success came from and you were comfortably the lowest scores in the top 6. A more high press, more bodies in support of the front three, FBs pushing on exposes Casemiro. To me Mopunt was an odd choice for CM as he's more attack minded without be the sort of dynamic box to box athlete that was probably needed. Caicedo was the sort of player you needed IMO and I think you might start to see Mount being pushed out wide right if Antony doesnt up his game to the next level.
I'd have Bruno dropping deep and let Mount play the attacking role.
Having two attacking 8's isn't going to work in games like this. We already knew that.
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 4 minutes ago
I'd have Bruno dropping deep and let Mount play the attacking role.
Having two attacking 8's isn't going to work in games like this. We already knew that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds good in theory but Bruno and Casemiro as the deep lying duo is one of the most unreliable midfield pairs in terms of retaining possession that I can think of.
Sign in if you want to comment
Casemiro getting written off
Page 1 of 2
posted on 18/8/23
Media outlets. Jamie Carragher and every other fool who make such bold claims after one game have shot their bolts.
posted on 18/8/23
After two games last season we weren't going to finish top 8 and Martinez was going to be a flop.
People losing their mind over that game on Monday. We often start seasons slowly.
posted on 18/8/23
No doubt carragher will say that this Nintendo guy is the next Milner and will be putting in quality performances for years to come, even though he's about the sane age as Casemiro but without the CL medals.
posted on 18/8/23
If Casemiro is as bad as he was against Wolves for the rest of the season he’s finished. But we all know that the first game of the season is often a shocker for the very best of players so I’m sure he’ll eventually shake it off.
posted on 18/8/23
I wouldn’t worry about Carragher and the like, they are paid to get reactions and pundits are becoming more and more preposterous to get clicks.
The issue United have isn’t just the personnel in midfield but also the tactics. On Monday they pushed both Mount and Bruno high (and at times Casemiro was going beyond as well) while using Casemiro and and inverted Shaw to form a box midfield as is the current fad. The issue with this many fold, firstly it is totally reliant on good possession in the forward areas which none of our players are capable of, secondly Casemiro has never been the most mobile and just won’t be able to match powerful runners from deep, it also leaves us open to exposure in the left back position, as well as blunting one of our best attacking options by restricting Shaws ability to overlap. If we continue with this set up we will be tipped to shreds by any decent team.
posted on 18/8/23
Has Graeme Souness given his thoughts on Onana yet?
posted on 18/8/23
In fairness Carragher was spot on about Ronaldo’s return from day 1 also.
This isn’t based off 1 game.
While he was good for large parts of last season the warning signs were there.
posted on 18/8/23
He obviously isn't the same player he was in
Madrid but still a great player
posted on 18/8/23
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 14 minutes ago
In fairness Carragher was spot on about Ronaldo’s return from day 1 also.
This isn’t based off 1 game.
While he was good for large parts of last season the warning signs were there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He wasn't right about Martinez though.
posted on 18/8/23
Casemiro did look really off the pace against wolves, but I'm sure it's just lacking match sharpness, which whilst frustrating, can be gained.
posted on 18/8/23
Of course he’s going to be ‘in decline’ at this stage but his performance last week was that of someone who isn’t at their full fitness, which is still not an excuse, he’s had a pre season same as everyone else.
You could drop prime Kante/Makalele into our line up last week and if the rest of our team shape was the same they’d have been labelled as shiyte too.
posted on 18/8/23
Our system wasn't working and Casemiro was left isolated with several quick runners breaking on him repeatedly throughout the game was acres of space to enjoy.
What is anyone expecting him to do in those situations? I can understand people who don't really play the game not understanding this, but Carragher should know better.
Casemiro didn't help his cause by taking up some odd positions and chasing the ball about at times but the issue was that we didn't play the setup very well at all and Wolves had a plan for it which they executed and exploited all game.
I am a bit surprised at how much of a mess the system was given that it would have been worked on for the last couple of months but there's no need to panic after one game in which we ultimately secured the three points.
posted on 18/8/23
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 14 minutes ago
In fairness Carragher was spot on about Ronaldo’s return from day 1 also.
This isn’t based off 1 game.
While he was good for large parts of last season the warning signs were there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He wasn't right about Martinez though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair point too.
The worrying thing with Casemiro is that he was almost as poor as last Monday for a few months towards the end of last season.
Hopefully he can turn it around but I’ve a feeling we’ll be here next summer with an expensive asset that will be difficult to shift.
posted on 18/8/23
DoireDevilBhoy
Agree to some extent and what you write chimes with my initial 'eye test' view of the match. But I've read some detailed assessments of the match by people who re-watched carefully and who are better than me at analysing formations, which has changed my perceptions.
One of the main points was that individual decision making in terms of positioning and rashly diving into risky tackles often resulted in the breakdown of the 'rest defensive' structure. Casemiro was particularly criticised for that.
Another thing I hadn't appreciated during the match was that Shaw wasn't always the one who tucked in next to Casemiro when we were in possession. There were two build-up patterns, with either Shaw or Lisandro slotting in next to Casemiro. I'll try to watch out for that more in future.
As to the OP:
- We'll have to watch Casemiro's performances, as Monday was poor. I'd imagine a player of his intelligence will fine-tune the tactical mistakes. The real worry would be if his legs have gone for the level he needs to perform at in the PL.
- When he joined last summer, seasoned Real Madrid watchers remarked that Casemiro has a tendency to start seasons in mediocre form and then pick up momentum.
- Carragher's hot take last year was a thumbs down on the Casemiro signing, so we should hardly be surprised that he's seeing confirmation that he was right from the start in his richly remunerated column for a radical-right newspaper.
posted on 18/8/23
Casemiro is a big name though worldwide at least, massive champions league respect on his name.
Nailed on for Saudi and big big salary, we might actually be able to move him on easier than the rest of the overpaid shiyte players we have.
posted on 18/8/23
Whether or not he’s being written off too early he definitely came back to pre season looking like he’d eaten a few too many feijoadas.
posted on 18/8/23
At lot of United fans on Twitter using Casemiro’s trophy cabinet to say he’s currently better than Rice or Caicedo. That’s not the argument here.
posted on 18/8/23
https://youtu.be/zCX78-Xnafo
posted on 18/8/23
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 56 seconds ago
Another thing I hadn't appreciated during the match was that Shaw wasn't always the one who tucked in next to Casemiro when we were in possession. There were two build-up patterns, with either Shaw or Lisandro slotting in next to Casemiro. I'll try to watch out for that more in future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd pointed this out during preseason; Martinez (or whoever the LCB is) is regularly stepping into a CDM position, presumably with the idea that Onana steps up much higher than DDG would to kind of provide the deeper passing option but also to enable Mount to push up high whilst still having a progressive passer fill in the deeper midfield space.
On paper that sounds great, though I'll admit that I'm skeptical at having a kind of fluid CB who might find themselves in awkward positions in certain moments of the game.
Also my issue with Shaw tucking in is that he's a much bigger threat when he gets up to steam and drives forward (and he's far from the best attacking FB around as it is). With our RB options being even more inferior going forwards than Shaw, we lose a lot of attacking threat when Shaw goes infield.
Getting all of those more fluid defensive positions correct in possession will obviously take time and will get caught in transition in the meantime, but there's also a sense that the players we have in the FB areas are less than ideal (Shaw being the more adaptable) in most systems. I can't help but think that the way the defence shifts about in possession looks somewhat unnecessarily complicated and over-thought.
I guess we'll see how it pans out!
posted on 18/8/23
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 4 minutes ago
At lot of United fans on Twitter using Casemiro’s trophy cabinet to say he’s currently better than Rice or Caicedo. That’s not the argument here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's how you argue on Twitter though.
posted on 18/8/23
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 56 seconds ago
Another thing I hadn't appreciated during the match was that Shaw wasn't always the one who tucked in next to Casemiro when we were in possession. There were two build-up patterns, with either Shaw or Lisandro slotting in next to Casemiro. I'll try to watch out for that more in future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd pointed this out during preseason; Martinez (or whoever the LCB is) is regularly stepping into a CDM position, presumably with the idea that Onana steps up much higher than DDG would to kind of provide the deeper passing option but also to enable Mount to push up high whilst still having a progressive passer fill in the deeper midfield space.
On paper that sounds great, though I'll admit that I'm skeptical at having a kind of fluid CB who might find themselves in awkward positions in certain moments of the game.
Also my issue with Shaw tucking in is that he's a much bigger threat when he gets up to steam and drives forward (and he's far from the best attacking FB around as it is). With our RB options being even more inferior going forwards than Shaw, we lose a lot of attacking threat when Shaw goes infield.
Getting all of those more fluid defensive positions correct in possession will obviously take time and will get caught in transition in the meantime, but there's also a sense that the players we have in the FB areas are less than ideal (Shaw being the more adaptable) in most systems. I can't help but think that the way the defence shifts about in possession looks somewhat unnecessarily complicated and over-thought.
I guess we'll see how it pans out!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Berba
posted on 18/8/23
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 15 minutes ago
DoireDevilBhoy
Agree to some extent and what you write chimes with my initial 'eye test' view of the match. But I've read some detailed assessments of the match by people who re-watched carefully and who are better than me at analysing formations, which has changed my perceptions.
One of the main points was that individual decision making in terms of positioning and rashly diving into risky tackles often resulted in the breakdown of the 'rest defensive' structure. Casemiro was particularly criticised for that.
Another thing I hadn't appreciated during the match was that Shaw wasn't always the one who tucked in next to Casemiro when we were in possession. There were two build-up patterns, with either Shaw or Lisandro slotting in next to Casemiro. I'll try to watch out for that more in future.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with what you’ve said here, but I’d argue that Casemiro jumping in was as a result of being left isolated rather than the cause of the issue.
Also agree with Martinez stepping in, and I think AWB did so at times too, my point on Shaw was that he did it most often and it negatively impacts us arguably more than the other two doing so.
Overall tho I think one of the main issues (as ETH seemed at pains to point out) was ball retention. If you are going to play this system then you need to retain the ball, so for me the most galling thing is that we are trying it at all when we have Bruno, Rashy, Mount, Garnacho and Anthony (and even add in Martial and Sancho). All who are ‘moments’ players who try things, ball retention is not a strength of any of those players.
posted on 18/8/23
This Casemiro narrative was always in play but his performances last season shut everyone up.
Now after 1 game and a slightly more attacking midfield line-up, he's looking a bit more exposed and that is not playing to his strengths. You could see vs Wolves that aggressive running through the midfield exposed him & your setup.
As a more general comment, my observations are that United continue to struggle to find the balance right in wanting to play a more expansive attacking game. Under Ole you did well but largely playing counter attacking football, when he tried to be more expansive it didnt work so well.
ETH seems to be having a similar ride. Last season you were not a pure counter attacking team but that's where a lot of your success came from and you were comfortably the lowest scores in the top 6. A more high press, more bodies in support of the front three, FBs pushing on exposes Casemiro. To me Mopunt was an odd choice for CM as he's more attack minded without be the sort of dynamic box to box athlete that was probably needed. Caicedo was the sort of player you needed IMO and I think you might start to see Mount being pushed out wide right if Antony doesnt up his game to the next level.
posted on 18/8/23
I'd have Bruno dropping deep and let Mount play the attacking role.
Having two attacking 8's isn't going to work in games like this. We already knew that.
posted on 18/8/23
comment by Glazers Out (SE85) (U21241)
posted 4 minutes ago
I'd have Bruno dropping deep and let Mount play the attacking role.
Having two attacking 8's isn't going to work in games like this. We already knew that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds good in theory but Bruno and Casemiro as the deep lying duo is one of the most unreliable midfield pairs in terms of retaining possession that I can think of.
Page 1 of 2