comment by CurrentlyInPoland (U11181)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Dirty Pranchez (U22336)
posted 4 minutes ago
Dude is a centralised candidate, quite appealing.
I don’t want a liberal or a right winger, so he fits the bill and will probably get my vote.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
British Centre is on the right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well it shouldn’t be.
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 13 minutes ago
If it's more of the same, who's going to be Labour's Cruella?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 28 minutes ago
If it's more of the same, who's going to be Labour's Cruella?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rachel Reeves for sure
Being a candidate is different to being the boss.
At least he's intelligent, which helps.
He's a bit like the orange flavour sweets left in the bag when even the lemon ones have gone.
He's like Blair really, Tory lite.
Confuses me people that voted for Corbyn think he's the answer. Tories and Labour just seem like they both don't connect with a large % of voters.
A centrally aligned party would clean up. Country is calling out for a party like the Libs but a good version, thats taken seriously 😂
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 31 minutes ago
He's a bit like the orange flavour sweets left in the bag when even the lemon ones have gone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tbf that’s like most British Prime Minsters the last century.
comment by FootyMcfootfoot (U21853)
posted 10 hours, 39 minutes ago
He's like Blair really, Tory lite.
Confuses me people that voted for Corbyn think he's the answer. Tories and Labour just seem like they both don't connect with a large % of voters.
A centrally aligned party would clean up. Country is calling out for a party like the Libs but a good version, thats taken seriously 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A party polling at 47% not connecting with the voters is a hot take if I ever heard one.
I really don't understand 'more of the same' when the current Tory party isn't just a centre-right political platform, but very explicitly flirting with the same post-truth, authoritarian playbook as the Republicans in the States. If it was Starmer up against John Major's Conservatives, then sure, it's very much a question of a slightly lesser evil. The current bunch have given us Rwanda, culture wars, stacking the BBC with Tory operatives, draconian laws on the right to protest, voter suppression, attacks on the legitimacy of the courts, brazen corruption, and the normalisation of outright lying. In addition to ideologically driven austerity policies that have reversed the progress that the Blair-Brown governments (for all their deep flaws and disappointments) made in investment in the NHS, education, eradicating child poverty, etc.
The fact of the matter is that we'd very likely had seen a Labour government in 2017 had the PLP not been actively working against such an outcome. Not only were they working against a Corbyn government quite publicly, but we have the Labour leaks that show the fuller extent of what they were up to secretly as well, which went as far as diverting party funds to safe Labour seats and away from marginals with a pro-Corbyn candidate. By any measure that should have been a scandal that rocked the party foundations for years to come. Instead it largely remains hidden from public knowledge, ultimately because the media apparatus who should otherwise be telling us these things also didn't want Corbyn, were happy to help tear him down and played their part in destroying the popular movement behind him.
By 2019 the Brexit issue meant Corbyn was doomed to fail, plus an additional two years of the absolute worst media conduct and smear campaign in any recent British political history.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Berbaking
The Brexit effect and Johnson's shameless dishonesty in channelling it indeed killed Corbyn's chances in 2019, and the combination of that and first past the post gives a warped impression of the country's "rejection" of that Labour platform.
However, a full account of the 2017 election result needs to acknowledge that there's a great deal of polling evidence that tells us Labour benefitted from very significant levels of tactical voting by LibDems, Greens, etc that was also driven by Brexit. In my constituency I knew many people who weren't traditional Labour supporters and not particularly into Corbyn, who decided to lend their vote on this occasion because they wanted to prevent a hard Brexit. There were even quite a lot of posters on houses advertising this position. It was probably more pronounced in my constituency because it was a three-way marginal but there's plenty of empirical reporting out there that this was a national phenomenon. Those votes weren't there for Corbyn to count on, and a lot of voters who were Remainers more than they were Labour supporters were disillusioned by Labour's stance by 2019, which in conjunction with Farage's move to avoiding splitting the Leave vote killed the party at the next election. I'm not one to criticise Corbyn's approach to Brexit, though I was a staunch opponent of hard Brexit, as unifying the Labour coalition on any position was impossible.
As for the 'stab in the back' narrative, it's true that parliamentary party hostility to him was damaging. Some of the right-wing factions' behaviour was disgraceful. I think Corbyn's supporters also behaved in a pretty factional, entrenched manner too. This was understandable given their history as outsiders and given the hostility of colleagues. But I think it would have been pragmatic to tread more carefully and sensitively, make more compromises in tone that would have resulted in more buy-in to the substantive agenda.
We can say it's very unfair that the Labour establishment is the way it is, just as we can talk about the right-wing tilt of the media landscape. But those are realities we have to deal with if we want to bring a left-wing agenda to power. Going back to the point I made somewhere at the start of this thread, I think we need to be smart, pragmatic and conscious of what battles are winnable. Part of that is sounding less ideological, and acting less like insurgents - generally I think we should learn lessons from the right wing, which has always been better at passing off its policies as common sense, rather than political. Which isn't to say I think Starmer has it right. As I said earlier, I always had a sense that John McDonnell had better instincts than Corbyn around how to enact (rather than propose) a radical agenda.
Deportation to Rwanda is easily one of the most bizarre political ideas I can remember.
I mean, I haven't read any details of the 'plan' (read: brainfart), and I don't know much about law, but is there really any chance it could ever get past an international human rights court?
It just seems to fly in the face of any notion of human decency that you could just plonk someone on a plane and fly them 4000 miles away to a place not of their choice and which they might never be able to leave for the rest of their lives.
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 19 minutes ago
Deportation to Rwanda is easily one of the most bizarre political ideas I can remember.
I mean, I haven't read any details of the 'plan' (read: brainfart), and I don't know much about law, but is there really any chance it could ever get past an international human rights court?
It just seems to fly in the face of any notion of human decency that you could just plonk someone on a plane and fly them 4000 miles away to a place not of their choice and which they might never be able to leave for the rest of their lives.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rwanda was never intended as a solution. The government know the legal barriers are steep, but if they are thwarted by the courts, they get to say it's the fault of human rights law, so the vague threat of migrants is not their fault - it's the fault of lefties and political correctness. And if they do send refugees to Rwanda, it's just political theatre: it will be a few hundred people at most, not scratching the surface of the backlog of asylum seekers.
So it's immoral and revolting, but we should keep in mind that it's also very much symbolic gesture politics.
Yeah, I guess I just don't understand how our collective social morals can have fallen low enough for someone to think it a politically profitable gesture to point to themselves saying, "Hey, look how big of a cá´œnt I am."
All around the world, it seems far right politicians are engaged in a race to basically outcá´œnt each other, but it's actually because there are plenty of people loving it.
The Tories want to leave the ECHR and the Rwanda plan is just another way for them to whip up a storm so that they can get support for it.
Aren't/Weren't the Blairs on Kagame's/Rwanda's payroll?
Wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn there are some dark secrets between the two countries being held in the halls of power.
Starmer is disgracing himself more and more everyday with his handling of the Gaza crisis. As someone said online the other day he’s less a man of principles and more a man terrified of losing a general election.
I genuinely feel sorry for the UK having such weak and uninspiring political leaders.
comment by Dirty Pranchez (U22336)
posted 1 week ago
comment by CurrentlyInPoland (U11181)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Dirty Pranchez (U22336)
posted 4 minutes ago
Dude is a centralised candidate, quite appealing.
I don’t want a liberal or a right winger, so he fits the bill and will probably get my vote.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
British Centre is on the right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well it shouldn’t be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is what it is
We have Kier, basically Labour that is like the Tories of 12 years ago, or Rishi, an unpopular leader of the Tories who basically took in UKIP and are being primed to lose by the media who are already throwing their weight behind PM elect Kier, to vote for (indirectly).
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 1 day ago
Starmer is disgracing himself more and more everyday with his handling of the Gaza crisis. As someone said online the other day he’s less a man of principles and more a man terrified of losing a general election.
I genuinely feel sorry for the UK having such weak and uninspiring political leaders.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We had Boris. There is little hope for this nation really. I'm in Poland and while there is problems here, they seem to be more on the UP than the UK. China definitely are. The UK and the state it is in is self inflicted. People keep voting in people who not only don't have their best interest at heart but actively are skru wing them over to.line their own pockets
Sign in if you want to comment
Keir Starmer
Page 6 of 6
6
posted on 25/10/23
comment by CurrentlyInPoland (U11181)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Dirty Pranchez (U22336)
posted 4 minutes ago
Dude is a centralised candidate, quite appealing.
I don’t want a liberal or a right winger, so he fits the bill and will probably get my vote.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
British Centre is on the right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well it shouldn’t be.
posted on 25/10/23
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 13 minutes ago
If it's more of the same, who's going to be Labour's Cruella?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 25/10/23
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 28 minutes ago
If it's more of the same, who's going to be Labour's Cruella?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rachel Reeves for sure
posted on 25/10/23
Being a candidate is different to being the boss.
At least he's intelligent, which helps.
posted on 25/10/23
He's a bit like the orange flavour sweets left in the bag when even the lemon ones have gone.
posted on 25/10/23
He's like Blair really, Tory lite.
Confuses me people that voted for Corbyn think he's the answer. Tories and Labour just seem like they both don't connect with a large % of voters.
A centrally aligned party would clean up. Country is calling out for a party like the Libs but a good version, thats taken seriously 😂
posted on 25/10/23
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 31 minutes ago
He's a bit like the orange flavour sweets left in the bag when even the lemon ones have gone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tbf that’s like most British Prime Minsters the last century.
posted on 26/10/23
comment by FootyMcfootfoot (U21853)
posted 10 hours, 39 minutes ago
He's like Blair really, Tory lite.
Confuses me people that voted for Corbyn think he's the answer. Tories and Labour just seem like they both don't connect with a large % of voters.
A centrally aligned party would clean up. Country is calling out for a party like the Libs but a good version, thats taken seriously 😂
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A party polling at 47% not connecting with the voters is a hot take if I ever heard one.
posted on 26/10/23
I really don't understand 'more of the same' when the current Tory party isn't just a centre-right political platform, but very explicitly flirting with the same post-truth, authoritarian playbook as the Republicans in the States. If it was Starmer up against John Major's Conservatives, then sure, it's very much a question of a slightly lesser evil. The current bunch have given us Rwanda, culture wars, stacking the BBC with Tory operatives, draconian laws on the right to protest, voter suppression, attacks on the legitimacy of the courts, brazen corruption, and the normalisation of outright lying. In addition to ideologically driven austerity policies that have reversed the progress that the Blair-Brown governments (for all their deep flaws and disappointments) made in investment in the NHS, education, eradicating child poverty, etc.
posted on 26/10/23
The fact of the matter is that we'd very likely had seen a Labour government in 2017 had the PLP not been actively working against such an outcome. Not only were they working against a Corbyn government quite publicly, but we have the Labour leaks that show the fuller extent of what they were up to secretly as well, which went as far as diverting party funds to safe Labour seats and away from marginals with a pro-Corbyn candidate. By any measure that should have been a scandal that rocked the party foundations for years to come. Instead it largely remains hidden from public knowledge, ultimately because the media apparatus who should otherwise be telling us these things also didn't want Corbyn, were happy to help tear him down and played their part in destroying the popular movement behind him.
By 2019 the Brexit issue meant Corbyn was doomed to fail, plus an additional two years of the absolute worst media conduct and smear campaign in any recent British political history.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Berbaking
The Brexit effect and Johnson's shameless dishonesty in channelling it indeed killed Corbyn's chances in 2019, and the combination of that and first past the post gives a warped impression of the country's "rejection" of that Labour platform.
However, a full account of the 2017 election result needs to acknowledge that there's a great deal of polling evidence that tells us Labour benefitted from very significant levels of tactical voting by LibDems, Greens, etc that was also driven by Brexit. In my constituency I knew many people who weren't traditional Labour supporters and not particularly into Corbyn, who decided to lend their vote on this occasion because they wanted to prevent a hard Brexit. There were even quite a lot of posters on houses advertising this position. It was probably more pronounced in my constituency because it was a three-way marginal but there's plenty of empirical reporting out there that this was a national phenomenon. Those votes weren't there for Corbyn to count on, and a lot of voters who were Remainers more than they were Labour supporters were disillusioned by Labour's stance by 2019, which in conjunction with Farage's move to avoiding splitting the Leave vote killed the party at the next election. I'm not one to criticise Corbyn's approach to Brexit, though I was a staunch opponent of hard Brexit, as unifying the Labour coalition on any position was impossible.
As for the 'stab in the back' narrative, it's true that parliamentary party hostility to him was damaging. Some of the right-wing factions' behaviour was disgraceful. I think Corbyn's supporters also behaved in a pretty factional, entrenched manner too. This was understandable given their history as outsiders and given the hostility of colleagues. But I think it would have been pragmatic to tread more carefully and sensitively, make more compromises in tone that would have resulted in more buy-in to the substantive agenda.
We can say it's very unfair that the Labour establishment is the way it is, just as we can talk about the right-wing tilt of the media landscape. But those are realities we have to deal with if we want to bring a left-wing agenda to power. Going back to the point I made somewhere at the start of this thread, I think we need to be smart, pragmatic and conscious of what battles are winnable. Part of that is sounding less ideological, and acting less like insurgents - generally I think we should learn lessons from the right wing, which has always been better at passing off its policies as common sense, rather than political. Which isn't to say I think Starmer has it right. As I said earlier, I always had a sense that John McDonnell had better instincts than Corbyn around how to enact (rather than propose) a radical agenda.
posted on 26/10/23
Deportation to Rwanda is easily one of the most bizarre political ideas I can remember.
I mean, I haven't read any details of the 'plan' (read: brainfart), and I don't know much about law, but is there really any chance it could ever get past an international human rights court?
It just seems to fly in the face of any notion of human decency that you could just plonk someone on a plane and fly them 4000 miles away to a place not of their choice and which they might never be able to leave for the rest of their lives.
posted on 26/10/23
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 19 minutes ago
Deportation to Rwanda is easily one of the most bizarre political ideas I can remember.
I mean, I haven't read any details of the 'plan' (read: brainfart), and I don't know much about law, but is there really any chance it could ever get past an international human rights court?
It just seems to fly in the face of any notion of human decency that you could just plonk someone on a plane and fly them 4000 miles away to a place not of their choice and which they might never be able to leave for the rest of their lives.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rwanda was never intended as a solution. The government know the legal barriers are steep, but if they are thwarted by the courts, they get to say it's the fault of human rights law, so the vague threat of migrants is not their fault - it's the fault of lefties and political correctness. And if they do send refugees to Rwanda, it's just political theatre: it will be a few hundred people at most, not scratching the surface of the backlog of asylum seekers.
So it's immoral and revolting, but we should keep in mind that it's also very much symbolic gesture politics.
posted on 26/10/23
Yeah, I guess I just don't understand how our collective social morals can have fallen low enough for someone to think it a politically profitable gesture to point to themselves saying, "Hey, look how big of a cá´œnt I am."
All around the world, it seems far right politicians are engaged in a race to basically outcá´œnt each other, but it's actually because there are plenty of people loving it.
posted on 26/10/23
Sadly true
posted on 26/10/23
The Tories want to leave the ECHR and the Rwanda plan is just another way for them to whip up a storm so that they can get support for it.
posted on 26/10/23
Aren't/Weren't the Blairs on Kagame's/Rwanda's payroll?
Wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn there are some dark secrets between the two countries being held in the halls of power.
posted on 31/10/23
Starmer is disgracing himself more and more everyday with his handling of the Gaza crisis. As someone said online the other day he’s less a man of principles and more a man terrified of losing a general election.
I genuinely feel sorry for the UK having such weak and uninspiring political leaders.
posted on 1/11/23
comment by Dirty Pranchez (U22336)
posted 1 week ago
comment by CurrentlyInPoland (U11181)
posted 41 minutes ago
comment by Dirty Pranchez (U22336)
posted 4 minutes ago
Dude is a centralised candidate, quite appealing.
I don’t want a liberal or a right winger, so he fits the bill and will probably get my vote.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
British Centre is on the right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well it shouldn’t be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is what it is
posted on 1/11/23
We have Kier, basically Labour that is like the Tories of 12 years ago, or Rishi, an unpopular leader of the Tories who basically took in UKIP and are being primed to lose by the media who are already throwing their weight behind PM elect Kier, to vote for (indirectly).
posted on 1/11/23
comment by Robb - Under Neon Loneliness (U22716)
posted 1 day ago
Starmer is disgracing himself more and more everyday with his handling of the Gaza crisis. As someone said online the other day he’s less a man of principles and more a man terrified of losing a general election.
I genuinely feel sorry for the UK having such weak and uninspiring political leaders.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We had Boris. There is little hope for this nation really. I'm in Poland and while there is problems here, they seem to be more on the UP than the UK. China definitely are. The UK and the state it is in is self inflicted. People keep voting in people who not only don't have their best interest at heart but actively are skru wing them over to.line their own pockets
Page 6 of 6
6