comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 29 minutes ago
Can't be bothered to write an OP about it, but an interesting Twitter thread here about our out of possession tactics against Fulham, how they worked and reasons why they sometimes didn't. (Incidentally Antony had a bit of a stinker out of possession - typically his strength - as well as with the ball at his feet.)
https://twitter.com/Silvakn0ws/status/1721123420375486623?s=19
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers for sharing that - good find!
There's a lot in here that I've been saying so it was nice to see it somewhat validated with some screenshots and extra details.
Teams have been able to nullify us by essentially doing the same thing described there; 4-4-2 out of possession, with the '2' sitting around our deepest midfielders, stopping passing into midfield. As we pop the ball square across the backline - particularly when the ball is going to Varane or AWB - the opposition use that as the trigger to squeeze up as a unit.
On the other hand, our own high press is poor. Pressing with a narrow 4 in the 3-1 part of the 4-2-3-1 formation, always allowing the opposition an 'out' pass to the FB on the other side, and our defensive line staying very deep, meaning our midfielders are left with a lot of space and ground to cover in a man to man system once the press has been beaten. Even with two Kante's in midfield, that's not a situation any midfielder wants to be in, let alone again and again and again, game after game.
I noticed yesterday that Bruno was getting more square to Hojlund in pressing situations and did mention on another thread that, at the very least, we looked a bit more robust than normal yesterday - not perfect by any means, but better. On the ball was largely terrible though.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Ali - (U1192)
posted 47 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 4 minutes ago
Can't be bothered to write an OP about it, but an interesting Twitter thread here about our out of possession tactics against Fulham, how they worked and reasons why they sometimes didn't. (Incidentally Antony had a bit of a stinker out of possession - typically his strength - as well as with the ball at his feet.)
https://twitter.com/Silvakn0ws/status/1721123420375486623?s=19
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was a simple & effective press scheme👏🏽and interesting to see, as we've rarely seen a different approach to Erik's usual 4-2-3-1/4-1-4-1 with a man-marking approach in the center that can be easy to manipulate.
--
"Rarely seen a different approach" - Eth does not know how to train teams to press. He also has been extremely questionable tactics and player selections.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the kind of categorical, black-and-white take that marrs so much of the discussion. There's imperfections in the press? He simply doesn't know how to set one up. Let's ignore the fact that his Ajax team were very good at it, that he inherited a group of players that lacked the fitness and intelligence to do it well, and the fact that we started the season with the highest numbers of high ball wins in the league.
Playing badly now? Can't be possible that ETH ever had us performing impressively. Those Barcelona matches? Never happened!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eth likely had superior staff around him to be fair. Van Der sar as CEO might have helped.
I completely disagree with your comment "lack the intelligence".
These are professional footballers in the premier league.
LVG trained fellaini how to press, and play nice 1-2s.
Fellaini is now available on a free...
Perhaps this comment would be best on Berba's article though.
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 2 hours, 16 minutes ago
Have you been hacking my laptop to get into my drafts Busby?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry if you planned this one late
comment by Ali - (U1192)
I completely disagree with your comment "lack the intelligence".
These are professional footballers in the premier league.
-------------------------
Being a pro footballer doesn't instantly mean you have elite level understanding of tactics, systems, patterns or seeing the "picture".
Several of the top managers in the history of the game were never players of any great repute - some not even getting to pro level of any kind. Point being, your ability as a player and your footballing brain are rarely at parity.
We see this on the pitch too, frequently, in a variety of different ways. Beckham & Scholes had excellent football brains, though neither could be accused of being especially intelligent otherwise. On the other hand, we see less talented players offer much greater insight tactically; Neville, Carragher etc
You also get a hell of a lot better tactical analysis from various individuals not formally in the game (YT analysts, tactics pieces in football journals etc) than you tend to get from the vast majority of ex-pro pundits.
And this translates across all levels of the game. To give a personal example, I play for a club that has four teams. I play in the second team (the reserve team), and occasionally go up one to the firsts if cover is needed. I'm pretty decent, but I'm certainly not the best player at the club. But in terms of understanding some of the things we're discussing here for example, I'd easily be among the top end of my peers at a reasonable amateur level and better than most of the players who are more gifted with the ball at their feet from my own club. My football brain is better than my feet, whereas for others it's the other way round.
The same will be true at all levels, including in the PL. That's why players are coached, and why players will do personal game analysis sessions with coaches etc, reviewing their games and performances and trying to better understand their roles. Some players will take to that perfectly naturally because they have the footballing brain for it, others will take longer to adapt.
What RR said is just fundamentally true, and easily observed at every level of the sport.
As I say, there are certainly red flags and ETH has been far from perfect.
The football has been pretty bad to watch, which is my biggest frustration. However I do feel there’s some merit in his comments last week about not having the players to make his system work. We shouldn’t forget both Jose and Ole also reverted to more pragmatic approaches the same way ETH has, at a club like Utd results matter.
My biggest criticism of ETH is the recruitment. He seems to keep going back to players he has worked with or knows of from his time in Holland. This makes me wonder if he simply doesn’t rate our scouts picks.
I’d be less worried about results if the performances were better, or visa versa.
I completely disagree with your comment "lack the intelligence".
These are professional footballers in the premier league.
------------------------------
None of them had been coached by managers who deployed a high press. And some of them clearly are either lacking in stamina to do it with intensity for 90 minutes, or struggle to understand the triggers and angles.
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
Our pressing is a big issue too. Firstly I think only Antony and Hoijlund are capable in our front 6 (maybe that’s being harsh on Garnacho who is picking it up). Mctominay, Martial, Rashford and Bruno don’t have either the intelligence, the will or either ti make it work.
Then the pressing system we use seems to make it too easy for teams to find their full backs in loads of space. It’s always an easy out and both Brighton and City were the best examples of that.
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool spurs and chelsea fell off a cliff last season, that normally doesn’t happen. Maybe 1 not all 3.
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool spurs and chelsea fell off a cliff last season, that normally doesn’t happen. Maybe 1 not all 3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does 70 points get you top 4 most seasons? Usually 2 or 3 of the big 6 have poor season.
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool spurs and chelsea fell off a cliff last season, that normally doesn’t happen. Maybe 1 not all 3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does 70 points get you top 4 most seasons? Usually 2 or 3 of the big 6 have poor season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a very fair point tbh. Hadn’t really thought of it that way.
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool spurs and chelsea fell off a cliff last season, that normally doesn’t happen. Maybe 1 not all 3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does 70 points get you top 4 most seasons? Usually 2 or 3 of the big 6 have poor season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a very fair point tbh. Hadn’t really thought of it that way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was just looking at it there. 75 points has been enough for top 4 in all but 3 of the seasons since the PL changed to a 38 game season almost 20 years ago.
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool spurs and chelsea fell off a cliff last season, that normally doesn’t happen. Maybe 1 not all 3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does 70 points get you top 4 most seasons? Usually 2 or 3 of the big 6 have poor season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a very fair point tbh. Hadn’t really thought of it that way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was just looking at it there. 75 points has been enough for top 4 in all but 3 of the seasons since the PL changed to a 38 game season almost 20 years ago.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I had a look also. It was just their turn to have poor seasons.
Makes me wonder about the competitiveness of the Premier League; can a league become strong enough to be a hindrance?
I don’t want duopoly or anything but we do have a lot of strong clubs here which is spreading the wealth literally and in terms of players.
The big 4 became the big 6 and now even that isn’t sufficient. Imagine if a Brighton, Villa got taken over also.
Sign in if you want to comment
Alternative Stat
Page 2 of 2
posted on 5/11/23
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 29 minutes ago
Can't be bothered to write an OP about it, but an interesting Twitter thread here about our out of possession tactics against Fulham, how they worked and reasons why they sometimes didn't. (Incidentally Antony had a bit of a stinker out of possession - typically his strength - as well as with the ball at his feet.)
https://twitter.com/Silvakn0ws/status/1721123420375486623?s=19
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers for sharing that - good find!
There's a lot in here that I've been saying so it was nice to see it somewhat validated with some screenshots and extra details.
Teams have been able to nullify us by essentially doing the same thing described there; 4-4-2 out of possession, with the '2' sitting around our deepest midfielders, stopping passing into midfield. As we pop the ball square across the backline - particularly when the ball is going to Varane or AWB - the opposition use that as the trigger to squeeze up as a unit.
On the other hand, our own high press is poor. Pressing with a narrow 4 in the 3-1 part of the 4-2-3-1 formation, always allowing the opposition an 'out' pass to the FB on the other side, and our defensive line staying very deep, meaning our midfielders are left with a lot of space and ground to cover in a man to man system once the press has been beaten. Even with two Kante's in midfield, that's not a situation any midfielder wants to be in, let alone again and again and again, game after game.
I noticed yesterday that Bruno was getting more square to Hojlund in pressing situations and did mention on another thread that, at the very least, we looked a bit more robust than normal yesterday - not perfect by any means, but better. On the ball was largely terrible though.
posted on 5/11/23
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Ali - (U1192)
posted 47 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 4 minutes ago
Can't be bothered to write an OP about it, but an interesting Twitter thread here about our out of possession tactics against Fulham, how they worked and reasons why they sometimes didn't. (Incidentally Antony had a bit of a stinker out of possession - typically his strength - as well as with the ball at his feet.)
https://twitter.com/Silvakn0ws/status/1721123420375486623?s=19
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was a simple & effective press scheme👏🏽and interesting to see, as we've rarely seen a different approach to Erik's usual 4-2-3-1/4-1-4-1 with a man-marking approach in the center that can be easy to manipulate.
--
"Rarely seen a different approach" - Eth does not know how to train teams to press. He also has been extremely questionable tactics and player selections.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the kind of categorical, black-and-white take that marrs so much of the discussion. There's imperfections in the press? He simply doesn't know how to set one up. Let's ignore the fact that his Ajax team were very good at it, that he inherited a group of players that lacked the fitness and intelligence to do it well, and the fact that we started the season with the highest numbers of high ball wins in the league.
Playing badly now? Can't be possible that ETH ever had us performing impressively. Those Barcelona matches? Never happened!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eth likely had superior staff around him to be fair. Van Der sar as CEO might have helped.
I completely disagree with your comment "lack the intelligence".
These are professional footballers in the premier league.
LVG trained fellaini how to press, and play nice 1-2s.
posted on 5/11/23
Fellaini is now available on a free...
Perhaps this comment would be best on Berba's article though.
posted on 5/11/23
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 2 hours, 16 minutes ago
Have you been hacking my laptop to get into my drafts Busby?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry if you planned this one late
posted on 5/11/23
comment by Ali - (U1192)
I completely disagree with your comment "lack the intelligence".
These are professional footballers in the premier league.
-------------------------
Being a pro footballer doesn't instantly mean you have elite level understanding of tactics, systems, patterns or seeing the "picture".
Several of the top managers in the history of the game were never players of any great repute - some not even getting to pro level of any kind. Point being, your ability as a player and your footballing brain are rarely at parity.
We see this on the pitch too, frequently, in a variety of different ways. Beckham & Scholes had excellent football brains, though neither could be accused of being especially intelligent otherwise. On the other hand, we see less talented players offer much greater insight tactically; Neville, Carragher etc
You also get a hell of a lot better tactical analysis from various individuals not formally in the game (YT analysts, tactics pieces in football journals etc) than you tend to get from the vast majority of ex-pro pundits.
And this translates across all levels of the game. To give a personal example, I play for a club that has four teams. I play in the second team (the reserve team), and occasionally go up one to the firsts if cover is needed. I'm pretty decent, but I'm certainly not the best player at the club. But in terms of understanding some of the things we're discussing here for example, I'd easily be among the top end of my peers at a reasonable amateur level and better than most of the players who are more gifted with the ball at their feet from my own club. My football brain is better than my feet, whereas for others it's the other way round.
The same will be true at all levels, including in the PL. That's why players are coached, and why players will do personal game analysis sessions with coaches etc, reviewing their games and performances and trying to better understand their roles. Some players will take to that perfectly naturally because they have the footballing brain for it, others will take longer to adapt.
What RR said is just fundamentally true, and easily observed at every level of the sport.
posted on 5/11/23
As I say, there are certainly red flags and ETH has been far from perfect.
The football has been pretty bad to watch, which is my biggest frustration. However I do feel there’s some merit in his comments last week about not having the players to make his system work. We shouldn’t forget both Jose and Ole also reverted to more pragmatic approaches the same way ETH has, at a club like Utd results matter.
My biggest criticism of ETH is the recruitment. He seems to keep going back to players he has worked with or knows of from his time in Holland. This makes me wonder if he simply doesn’t rate our scouts picks.
I’d be less worried about results if the performances were better, or visa versa.
posted on 5/11/23
I completely disagree with your comment "lack the intelligence".
These are professional footballers in the premier league.
------------------------------
None of them had been coached by managers who deployed a high press. And some of them clearly are either lacking in stamina to do it with intensity for 90 minutes, or struggle to understand the triggers and angles.
posted on 5/11/23
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
posted on 5/11/23
Our pressing is a big issue too. Firstly I think only Antony and Hoijlund are capable in our front 6 (maybe that’s being harsh on Garnacho who is picking it up). Mctominay, Martial, Rashford and Bruno don’t have either the intelligence, the will or either ti make it work.
Then the pressing system we use seems to make it too easy for teams to find their full backs in loads of space. It’s always an easy out and both Brighton and City were the best examples of that.
posted on 5/11/23
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool spurs and chelsea fell off a cliff last season, that normally doesn’t happen. Maybe 1 not all 3.
posted on 5/11/23
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool spurs and chelsea fell off a cliff last season, that normally doesn’t happen. Maybe 1 not all 3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does 70 points get you top 4 most seasons? Usually 2 or 3 of the big 6 have poor season.
posted on 5/11/23
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool spurs and chelsea fell off a cliff last season, that normally doesn’t happen. Maybe 1 not all 3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does 70 points get you top 4 most seasons? Usually 2 or 3 of the big 6 have poor season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a very fair point tbh. Hadn’t really thought of it that way.
posted on 5/11/23
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool spurs and chelsea fell off a cliff last season, that normally doesn’t happen. Maybe 1 not all 3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does 70 points get you top 4 most seasons? Usually 2 or 3 of the big 6 have poor season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a very fair point tbh. Hadn’t really thought of it that way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was just looking at it there. 75 points has been enough for top 4 in all but 3 of the seasons since the PL changed to a 38 game season almost 20 years ago.
posted on 5/11/23
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 23 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 13 minutes ago
comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 19 minutes ago
comment by >💲Baz tard🦍+❄️=? (U19119)
posted 2 hours, 22 minutes ago
Wouldn’t sack him, but 3rd last season was more about the rival teams being awful than any great management. Sure he had to capitalize on that and did. I want to see him get atleast til the end of the season, and probably next season too
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We got 75 points last season. 70 points generally gets you top 4. Not sure why you talk about last season like it’s some kind of anomaly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Liverpool spurs and chelsea fell off a cliff last season, that normally doesn’t happen. Maybe 1 not all 3.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does 70 points get you top 4 most seasons? Usually 2 or 3 of the big 6 have poor season.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s a very fair point tbh. Hadn’t really thought of it that way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was just looking at it there. 75 points has been enough for top 4 in all but 3 of the seasons since the PL changed to a 38 game season almost 20 years ago.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I had a look also. It was just their turn to have poor seasons.
Makes me wonder about the competitiveness of the Premier League; can a league become strong enough to be a hindrance?
I don’t want duopoly or anything but we do have a lot of strong clubs here which is spreading the wealth literally and in terms of players.
The big 4 became the big 6 and now even that isn’t sufficient. Imagine if a Brighton, Villa got taken over also.
Page 2 of 2