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Off topic - Ukrainian refugees

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posted on 22/11/23

This is becoming a big issue in Irish politics.

I'm not all over the details but it seems a lot of Irish have reached tipping point. I seen Ireland is full trending on twitter and loads of videos about them sneaking refugees in during the night, violence from them (not specifically Ukrainians) on locals is getting a lot of traction too.

Much like over here, we need to do our bit but the moderate politicians need to draw the line somewhere or the right will garner huge swells of support on this issue alone.

I'd like to see immigration caps on unskilled immigrants and those numbers be really low for a few years. Think most of Western Europe needs that now or the right will rise dangerously further.

posted on 22/11/23

comment by HB Maybe Beale wasn't the mastermind (U21935)
posted 4 minutes ago
This is becoming a big issue in Irish politics.

I'm not all over the details but it seems a lot of Irish have reached tipping point. I seen Ireland is full trending on twitter and loads of videos about them sneaking refugees in during the night, violence from them (not specifically Ukrainians) on locals is getting a lot of traction too.

Much like over here, we need to do our bit but the moderate politicians need to draw the line somewhere or the right will garner huge swells of support on this issue alone.

I'd like to see immigration caps on unskilled immigrants and those numbers be really low for a few years. Think most of Western Europe needs that now or the right will rise dangerously further.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
100% agree but many are getting branded far-right or racist for having that view.

One huge issue in Ireland is that we are far too generous with benefits and payment support and we are the most attractive country now for these immigrants.

I don’t blame them but it’s a case of don’t hate the player hate the game.

comment by Busby (U19985)

posted on 22/11/23

You’re a Tory mug

posted on 22/11/23

This is really a fringe concern and, IMO, a really minor concern to the Irish public. Much more concerning are things like the housing crisis, the response from FF/FG to what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank, and whether it is right that David Clifford won player of the year despite missing a free in the final.

posted on 22/11/23

I'd like to see immigration caps on unskilled immigrants and those numbers be really low for a few years.

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You do realise that the corollary of this "only highly skilled migrants" policy is reducing investment in education so that the domestic population provides enough low-skilled workers to do poorly paid jobs, while we rely on immigrants to fill the highly paid, highly skilled jobs, don't you? This has very much been the model of the Conservative government.

Just to clarify: I'm fine with people who arrived recently entering any part of the workforce, and from the balance of research on the subject, my view is that migrants present a net benefit to the economy and wellbeing of the country. But a lot of people who are hostile to immigration and in particular want to keep unskilled migrants out don't seem to join the dots and realise that this leads to a situation where British people will increasingly be forced to pick turnips and wipe bottoms because there aren't better jobs available to them, and there aren't other people available to do that work.

posted on 22/11/23

Does taking in lots of refugees not ratchet up the housing crisis longer term?

Although isn't your housing crisis mainly down to your politicians profiting from it? Being Landlords and with links to Hoteliers.

Something they could have solved with investment but they are choosing not too because of the above? Can't see that changing until they are voted out but again my knowledge on the intricacies of Irish politics is lacking somewhat.

The housing issue is similar in most places to be fair but seems to be to a higher degree in Ireland.

posted on 22/11/23

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 12 seconds ago
I'd like to see immigration caps on unskilled immigrants and those numbers be really low for a few years.

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You do realise that the corollary of this "only highly skilled migrants" policy is reducing investment in education so that the domestic population provides enough low-skilled workers to do poorly paid jobs, while we rely on immigrants to fill the highly paid, highly skilled jobs, don't you? This has very much been the model of the Conservative government.

Just to clarify: I'm fine with people who arrived recently entering any part of the workforce, and from the balance of research on the subject, my view is that migrants present a net benefit to the economy and wellbeing of the country. But a lot of people who are hostile to immigration and in particular want to keep unskilled migrants out don't seem to join the dots and realise that this leads to a situation where British people will increasingly be forced to pick turnips and wipe bottoms because there aren't better jobs available to them, and there aren't other people available to do that work.
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Possibly targeted migration then for certain sectors?

I like to think i'm on the left in terms of social policies but I can see we're approaching a point in which certain immigrant groups are not assimilating partly because there are so many of them they don't need to which is going to lead to more problems and social instability longer term. Plus it's making a lot of our own feel unheard and seek more radical solutions.

I think we've had our head in the sand on that for quite a while. Those that voted brexit because they feel like their country has been taken over however wrong they may be and however terrible the brexit decision has been need to be listened to or they will keep cutting our nose off to spite our face so to speak.

Focus needs to be on the problems of the people that live here not solving the problems of people who dont.

posted on 22/11/23

As to the Ukrainian question in the OP, I guess it depends on whether you think constant and immediate danger of death is a prerequisite for accepting someone as a refugee who deserves support. I know a few Ukrainians who came to England at the start of the war. One of them travelled home for a brief visit to see family members who stayed behind. She told me about her experience, which included seeing missiles flying overhead (which confirmed to her that she made the right decision to go back without her child). Like other Ukrainians I know, she was would have been unable to work back in Ukraine in her former job, due to the physical and economic destruction caused by the Russian invasion. So there was no possibility of a sustainable economic life in the country at the moment, there was an elevated risk of death compared to spending that week back in the UK, but she took a calculated risk to spend that week back in her homeland in order to provide emotional support to loved ones. Personally, it didn't occur to me that by making that short trip she was invalidating her status as a refugee, or demonstrating to me that she didn't really need to be in the UK, didn't need the hospitality of my country. She doesn't have the possibility of living a decent life in Ukraine at the moment. It is dangerous living in Ukraine at the moment. The fact that she made a short trip doesn't invalidate either of those facts. It wouldn't occur to me that I demand she can only stay in my country if the perceived danger level is so high that even a fleeting visit would be out of the question.

That's my perspective.

posted on 22/11/23

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 8 minutes ago
As to the Ukrainian question in the OP, I guess it depends on whether you think constant and immediate danger of death is a prerequisite for accepting someone as a refugee who deserves support. I know a few Ukrainians who came to England at the start of the war. One of them travelled home for a brief visit to see family members who stayed behind. She told me about her experience, which included seeing missiles flying overhead (which confirmed to her that she made the right decision to go back without her child). Like other Ukrainians I know, she was would have been unable to work back in Ukraine in her former job, due to the physical and economic destruction caused by the Russian invasion. So there was no possibility of a sustainable economic life in the country at the moment, there was an elevated risk of death compared to spending that week back in the UK, but she took a calculated risk to spend that week back in her homeland in order to provide emotional support to loved ones. Personally, it didn't occur to me that by making that short trip she was invalidating her status as a refugee, or demonstrating to me that she didn't really need to be in the UK, didn't need the hospitality of my country. She doesn't have the possibility of living a decent life in Ukraine at the moment. It is dangerous living in Ukraine at the moment. The fact that she made a short trip doesn't invalidate either of those facts. It wouldn't occur to me that I demand she can only stay in my country if the perceived danger level is so high that even a fleeting visit would be out of the question.

That's my perspective.
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And a very fair one.

posted on 22/11/23

I think we've had our head in the sand on that for quite a while. Those that voted brexit because they feel like their country has been taken over however wrong they may be and however terrible the brexit decision has been need to be listened to or they will keep cutting our nose off to spite our face so to speak.

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The British public has been extensively polled on these questions for years, so we know approximately how they feel about this. Here are some headlines:

- Negative feelings about immigration peaked around the time of the Brexit referendum and have substantially declined since then, to the extent that UK citizens see immigration as a net positive force.
- This is despite the fact that the median British citizen believes immigration levels are considerably higher than the actual numbers.

There's a huge amount of anti-immigration propaganda swishing about our discourse, and I'm afraid you've swallowed some of it. Where is the data that tells us that lack of integration is a significant issue, or that it is getting worse? Where is the data that shows migration has a negative impact on our national wealth, let alone a decisively negative one? It's all too easy for politicians (and Labour governments have been guilty of this too) to blame a small minority for poor economic outcomes, for poor services and insufficient housing, when governments have failed to invest in these areas. Austerity is the number one cause of deprivation and lack of investment - of course the Tory government and the chorus of right-wing media and think tanks want the British public focusing on migrants (especially the statistically tiny fraction of them who look more scary because they arrive on boats, looking desperate) rather than questioning the settlement of our political economy over the last decade.

More often than not, immigrants are contributors to the economy. Most studies show their net impact on GDP is positive. There is no reason why that economic *net contribution* cannot be invested into improving services and building houses. Failing to do so is a policy decision. But we have a government and a prevailing political discourse which is instinctively and ideologically hostile to investment in the common good. And that leads to outcomes whereby we call out migrants for failing to assimilate while also defunding and closing programs that provide language tuition.

posted on 22/11/23

BTW I’m certainly not anti-immigrant.

It’s the system here in Ireland that I have an issue with. I don’t blame immigrants for taking advantage of it.

I’m a somewhat privileged middle class white male and I know it’s easy to judge.

My opinion is that this country makes it too easy to come here undocumented and get payment support and accommodation here.

People from countries such as Albania and Georgia are doing that and it shouldn’t be allowed just because the grass is greener here.

posted on 22/11/23

comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 43 minutes ago
You’re a Tory mug
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There's no call for this kind of name calling

posted on 22/11/23

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 43 minutes ago
You’re a Tory mug
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There's no call for this kind of name calling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I assumed he was joking.

As for the OP - I think I’m with RR. It’s not like they’re popping home for joyous festivities. It’s mostly going to be a trip of pain & sadness and paying respects

posted on 22/11/23

Imo, the British public are not against immigration. The British public are against mass immigration. There is a big difference.

posted on 22/11/23

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 43 minutes ago
You’re a Tory mug
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There's no call for this kind of name calling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I assumed he was joking.

As for the OP - I think I’m with RR. It’s not like they’re popping home for joyous festivities. It’s mostly going to be a trip of pain & sadness and paying respects
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can’t say I agree in all cases. For some Ireland is the land of milk and honey and opportunists are taking advantage.

posted on 22/11/23

OP. I think the Irish government has it right.

posted on 22/11/23

comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 13 seconds ago
OP. I think the Irish government has it right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s fair 52. Good to have a civilised debate on here.

posted on 22/11/23

I think most Ukraine refugees would be glad to get back home tbf

posted on 22/11/23

Ah the western hypocrisy
I can smell it

posted on 22/11/23

comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 43 minutes ago
You’re a Tory mug
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There's no call for this kind of name calling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I assumed he was joking.

As for the OP - I think I’m with RR. It’s not like they’re popping home for joyous festivities. It’s mostly going to be a trip of pain & sadness and paying respects
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can’t say I agree in all cases. For some Ireland is the land of milk and honey and opportunists are taking advantage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably not all cases, no. But likewise with the asylum seekers vs economic migrants debate, we cannot let the few ruin it for the rest.

posted on 22/11/23

comment by HB Maybe Beale wasn't the mastermind (U21935)
posted 1 hour, 47 minutes ago
This is becoming a big issue in Irish politics.

I'm not all over the details but it seems a lot of Irish have reached tipping point. I seen Ireland is full trending on twitter and loads of videos about them sneaking refugees in during the night, violence from them (not specifically Ukrainians) on locals is getting a lot of traction too.

Much like over here, we need to do our bit but the moderate politicians need to draw the line somewhere or the right will garner huge swells of support on this issue alone.

I'd like to see immigration caps on unskilled immigrants and those numbers be really low for a few years. Think most of Western Europe needs that now or the right will rise dangerously further.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who will do the menial jobs without unskilled immigrants?

posted on 22/11/23

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 27 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 43 minutes ago
You’re a Tory mug
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There's no call for this kind of name calling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I assumed he was joking.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Whereas I was being very serious

posted on 22/11/23

(You're better than this, SatNav!)

posted on 22/11/23

Oh ffs not AGAIN

😩

posted on 22/11/23

comment by The Process (U20671)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 43 minutes ago
You’re a Tory mug
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There's no call for this kind of name calling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I assumed he was joking.

As for the OP - I think I’m with RR. It’s not like they’re popping home for joyous festivities. It’s mostly going to be a trip of pain & sadness and paying respects
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can’t say I agree in all cases. For some Ireland is the land of milk and honey and opportunists are taking advantage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can't do these things without a certain percentage being opportunists. Asylum seekers, benefits and welfare etc will always have a percentage that are cheats. You can't throw out he baby with bath water. Even the justice system imprisons innocent people and lets the guilty walk sometimes. But mostly it does a lot of good. Should we then do away with the Justice system because it is imperfect?

The problem is that a lot of people are either thick or ignorant. Tories will collate the figures regarding cheats and use them to scare the bejeezus out of people. People will then vote Tory en masse and then get facked badly in the ass. They never learn.

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