The playing style clearly doesn’t involve running.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 10 minutes ago
The playing style clearly doesn’t involve running.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
John Stones ran the entire length of the pitch with the ball. Rice regularly carries the ball through midfield, as does Mainoo, as does Bellingham. We didn't really have any midfielders who pass it around and rotate and shift the opposition out of position. Obviously there was a lot of passing backwards and sideways but the only way we really broke through the opposition was by players carrying the ball (at least until Palmer came on).
Honestly, I think people are just overanalyzing too much.
This England side were poor throughout the tournament for the most part, not even among the best 4 or more in the tournament. They were remarkably fortunate to reach the final, they didn't deserve to be.
Throw in some pretty mediocre coaching and playing with fear for most of each match and you end up with what we saw.
Finally, these players are just massively overrated as well. I don't understand how they all get the hype they get. Rice??? 100 million VDV sais the same. Bellingham? No chance is he a world superstar. All season I heard how great Walker is?? Really, ffs!! The only England players to come out of this with any credit are the ones that got limited minutes. But I bet they would have looked crap as well if they started.
comment by Cinciwolf-----JA606 NFL fantasy champ 2023 (U11551)
posted 1 hour ago
Honestly, I think people are just overanalyzing too much.
This England side were poor throughout the tournament for the most part, not even among the best 4 or more in the tournament. They were remarkably fortunate to reach the final, they didn't deserve to be.
Throw in some pretty mediocre coaching and playing with fear for most of each match and you end up with what we saw.
Finally, these players are just massively overrated as well. I don't understand how they all get the hype they get. Rice??? 100 millionVDV sais the same. Bellingham? No chance is he a world superstar. All season I heard how great Walker is?? Really, ffs!! The only England players to come out of this with any credit are the ones that got limited minutes. But I bet they would have looked crap as well if they started.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We need more midfielders that can control the tempo of the game. I can't help but think Wharton could have been of use.But we need to produce more of this type of "metronome" player.
That's not the first time today I've heard Wharton (16 games for Crystal Palace) name-checked. Is he the hype train's next stop, the next Josh McEachran or Jack Wilshere?
The squad should've been used more in the earlier rounds imo and Southgate's reluctance to make changes early enough had the double down effect of going into extra time twice and meaning that his preferred 11 played more minutes and were tired.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 5 hours, 51 minutes ago
The playing style clearly doesn’t involve running.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Walker did a couple of 60/70 yard runs only for Saka to ignore him and pass to a Spanish player in the Final.
We also had a few instances of wide players getting to the edge of the penalty area only to find there was no one to pass to within 30 yards.
comment by Cinciwolf-----JA606 NFL fantasy champ 2023 (U11551)
posted 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
Honestly, I think people are just overanalyzing too much.
This England side were poor throughout the tournament for the most part, not even among the best 4 or more in the tournament. They were remarkably fortunate to reach the final, they didn't deserve to be.
Throw in some pretty mediocre coaching and playing with fear for most of each match and you end up with what we saw.
Finally, these players are just massively overrated as well. I don't understand how they all get the hype they get. Rice??? 100 millionVDV sais the same. Bellingham? No chance is he a world superstar. All season I heard how great Walker is?? Really, ffs!! The only England players to come out of this with any credit are the ones that got limited minutes. But I bet they would have looked crap as well if they started.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
These are all players who have dominated at the highest club level...so for you to call them rubbish shows how little you know. Walker one of the most decorated players in English history!
It is the managers job to get the best out of players playing them in a system that achieves this. That is where is all falls down. Players like Cucurella frequently embarrass themselves in the PL, bang average. Morata is a non-scoring forward yet they were both integral to a Spanish TEAM that won every game...and that is down to their quality but more significantly the coaching, which made them a TEAM greater than the sum of their parts and had them performing at a high level within a very effective system, as a TEAM.
England looked clueless in possession and its no wonder given the chopped and changed selection and formation and line-ups that had never stepped on the field of play together before.
I doubt Walker would be asked to play in a 3-at-the-back formation for his club against elite opposition.
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 2 hours, 43 minutes ago
That's not the first time today I've heard Wharton (16 games for Crystal Palace) name-checked. Is he the hype train's next stop, the next Josh McEachran or Jack Wilshere?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is part of the problem. The players arent as good as people think they are
Systematic failure.
For some reason, we want to play all the best players together rather than see if they can play together in a system that gets the best out of them. And it's not like we have a prime Messi or Ronaldo to build the team around.
comment by Baz tard - Ineos your face, proud owner of the 100k comment, fack you Michael Edward’s and your 5m, th (U19119)
posted 39 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 2 hours, 43 minutes ago
That's not the first time today I've heard Wharton (16 games for Crystal Palace) name-checked. Is he the hype train's next stop, the next Josh McEachran or Jack Wilshere?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is part of the problem. The players arent as good as people think they are
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We do tend to overrate players, be it ours or ones from abroad.
Bellingham for instance could turn out to be a great player but the hype around him after the first game was like we were watching Zidane. Truth is he was disappointing in this tournament. Two fine goals bit at times his touch was bad, he wasn't on Foden's wave length when they did try and combine and half the time he held on to the ball far too long.
but at the same time we are all in agreement these players havent had the same coach? switch managers of england and spain and u think spain still win witth southgate managing them?
most that spanish team prob wouldnt be in the squad under southgate he'd find his spanish trippier maguire phillips etc.
Statistically speaking (per uefa.com), England and Spain did a remarkably similar amount of running and passing in the tournament, but going forwards Spain seemed to have a systematic intent and purpose that England lacked.
There was also a major difference in how each team pressed. Spain's tended to be higher and better organised, leading to significantly more ball recovery high up the pitch. A big part of that, imo, was the difference between Morata's and Kane's contributions.
Southgate didn't use his squad anywhere near as well as De La Fuente either. The distribution of minutes was much more unevenly spread out. Even accounting for the extra 30 minutes England played, England's starters played more minutes than Spain's.
Admittedly, part of that was due to Spain rotating virtually the entire team in the third group game, but with both Kane and Bellingham looking fairly jaded from pretty much the first game, you have to wonder whether Southgate couldn't have given them more rest in the group stages.
look how poor cucurellas been for chelsea yet the spanish coach slaps him in and hes one of the players of the tourn lol
Looks at Spain
Average keeper
CB who plays in Saudi Arabia
Cucarella
Squad players like Joselu
Yes they have some very good players like Rodri and Yamal but the Spanish triumph is more about the team being the sum of its parts rather than fitting in all the best players at the expense of a system.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
These are all players who have dominated at the highest club level...so for you to call them rubbish shows how little you know. Walker one of the most decorated players in English history!
It is the managers job to get the best out of players playing them in a system that achieves this. That is where is all falls down. Players like Cucurella frequently embarrass themselves in the PL, bang average. Morata is a non-scoring forward yet they were both integral to a Spanish TEAM that won every game...and that is down to their quality but more significantly the coaching, which made them a TEAM greater than the sum of their parts and had them performing at a high level within a very effective system, as a TEAM.
England looked clueless in possession and its no wonder given the chopped and changed selection and formation and line-ups that had never stepped on the field of play together before.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comparatively speaking though, it's true.
That isn't to say that England don't have a good spread of elite level players, it's that their media (and the fans, as a result) often fail to acknowledge the same in their opponents.
Walker's a good example of that. Yes, he's been an elite full back for years, but how often is the same said of Carvajal? For years, the main focus has been his sheethousery, but here's a players who's started - and won - 6 Champions League finals. He was even Man of the Match in the most recent one. It was a similar case during Sergio Ramos's career. Just how much did he have to achieve before his actual value was recognised in England? Xavi was already a European champion with Spain and had masterminded Barça's midfield to a European/domestic treble, and he was still being rubbished in the English media.
You rubbish Cucurella, who was excellent for Brighton, had difficulty adapting in a Chelsea side that was misfiring all over the shop, but whose poor form at Chelsea, as any of their fans can tell you, ended months ago.
Just compare the widespread opinions about the Crystal Palace, Everton an Brentford contingent in the England squad? What makes these players any more 'elite' than Spain's footballers who are putting in excellent performances for European level clubs (e.g. Athletic Bilbao, Real Sociedad, PSG, RB Leipzig, Bayer Leverkusen) in Spain, Germany or France?
So yeah, while England do have a lot of quality players, it's largely the arrogance and inability to recognise that good football and good footballers exist elsewhere too.
My guess is that much of that has to do with the fact that the coverage and hyping of the PL product leads people into believing that the differences are much greater than they actually are.
It was like watching united all season.
Pathetic style of play and tactics.
Persistent selection of poor performing players.
Late subs.
That moment where Walker got the ball when England were 1-1 with Spain and had them on the ropes and he passed back to Pickford for no reason and he hoofed it out of play summed up the negative tactics. Apparently Southgate was going to bring on Trippier and Gallagher if it went to extra time and probably hold out for penalties.
Winning trophies especially at international level is all about moments and after 8 years in charge you’d think GS would have finally understood when to go for broke. He never did and now he’ll never have a better chance to win a trophy as we all saw Spain were there for the taking at 1-1
Bellingham was supposedly furious with GS too during the game.
I doubt he’d take the job but I feel Ancelotti would take England over the line finally
Bellingham seemed more interested in throwing himself to the floor than really making a killer pass. I know he plays for Madrid so a lot of the time will get a free kick for his play acting but it is very tiresome.
comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴 (U1192)
posted 14 minutes ago
It was like watching united all season.
Pathetic style of play and tactics.
Persistent selection of poor performing players.
Late subs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
same old england problem of not being coached well enough. the spanish were clearly well coached well drilled, team on paper inferior but everytthing else superior and tthat comes from the coaching.
comment by Robberto Garnacho (U22716)
posted 17 seconds ago
Looks at Spain
Average keeper
CB who plays in Saudi Arabia
Cucarella
Squad players like Joselu
Yes they have some very good players like Rodri and Yamal but the Spanish triumph is more about the team being the sum of its parts rather than fitting in all the best players at the expense of a system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The 'average keeper' has kept out the PL Golden Gloves winner, who in turn was pilloried for months because he'd kept a nice English lad out of the Arsenal line-up.
Your appraisal of Simón as 'average' is based on the errors you've seen him make playing the ball out from the back - not on his aerial game or on his shot-stopping. And if he's made those mistakes, it's because he's tasked with playing the ball as if he was an extra defender, not because he's 'average'. Just think for a moment about the world of difference between his and Pickford's distribution in the final.
Laporte's in Saudi Arabia because he chose the money, not because he isn't a good centre back. And his and Le Normand's first-choice replacement is a six-time Champions League winner with over 400 games for Real Madrid. I thought Guéhi and Konsa both looked very good at the Euros, but what makes them superior to Spain's CBs?
Joselu? He might be a journeyman, but there must've been some use about him when Madrid to have him as a stop gap for a season. He bagged 5 Champions League goals during the season, and saved Madrid as an impact sub scoring a brace in the Champions League final? He's also got as many international goals than Toney and Watkins combined. Go figure.
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Same old England failings
Page 1 of 3
posted on 16/7/24
The playing style clearly doesn’t involve running.
posted on 16/7/24
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 10 minutes ago
The playing style clearly doesn’t involve running.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
John Stones ran the entire length of the pitch with the ball. Rice regularly carries the ball through midfield, as does Mainoo, as does Bellingham. We didn't really have any midfielders who pass it around and rotate and shift the opposition out of position. Obviously there was a lot of passing backwards and sideways but the only way we really broke through the opposition was by players carrying the ball (at least until Palmer came on).
posted on 16/7/24
Honestly, I think people are just overanalyzing too much.
This England side were poor throughout the tournament for the most part, not even among the best 4 or more in the tournament. They were remarkably fortunate to reach the final, they didn't deserve to be.
Throw in some pretty mediocre coaching and playing with fear for most of each match and you end up with what we saw.
Finally, these players are just massively overrated as well. I don't understand how they all get the hype they get. Rice??? 100 million VDV sais the same. Bellingham? No chance is he a world superstar. All season I heard how great Walker is?? Really, ffs!! The only England players to come out of this with any credit are the ones that got limited minutes. But I bet they would have looked crap as well if they started.
posted on 16/7/24
comment by Cinciwolf-----JA606 NFL fantasy champ 2023 (U11551)
posted 1 hour ago
Honestly, I think people are just overanalyzing too much.
This England side were poor throughout the tournament for the most part, not even among the best 4 or more in the tournament. They were remarkably fortunate to reach the final, they didn't deserve to be.
Throw in some pretty mediocre coaching and playing with fear for most of each match and you end up with what we saw.
Finally, these players are just massively overrated as well. I don't understand how they all get the hype they get. Rice??? 100 millionVDV sais the same. Bellingham? No chance is he a world superstar. All season I heard how great Walker is?? Really, ffs!! The only England players to come out of this with any credit are the ones that got limited minutes. But I bet they would have looked crap as well if they started.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We need more midfielders that can control the tempo of the game. I can't help but think Wharton could have been of use.But we need to produce more of this type of "metronome" player.
posted on 16/7/24
That's not the first time today I've heard Wharton (16 games for Crystal Palace) name-checked. Is he the hype train's next stop, the next Josh McEachran or Jack Wilshere?
posted on 16/7/24
The squad should've been used more in the earlier rounds imo and Southgate's reluctance to make changes early enough had the double down effect of going into extra time twice and meaning that his preferred 11 played more minutes and were tired.
posted on 16/7/24
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 5 hours, 51 minutes ago
The playing style clearly doesn’t involve running.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Walker did a couple of 60/70 yard runs only for Saka to ignore him and pass to a Spanish player in the Final.
We also had a few instances of wide players getting to the edge of the penalty area only to find there was no one to pass to within 30 yards.
posted on 16/7/24
comment by Cinciwolf-----JA606 NFL fantasy champ 2023 (U11551)
posted 4 hours, 25 minutes ago
Honestly, I think people are just overanalyzing too much.
This England side were poor throughout the tournament for the most part, not even among the best 4 or more in the tournament. They were remarkably fortunate to reach the final, they didn't deserve to be.
Throw in some pretty mediocre coaching and playing with fear for most of each match and you end up with what we saw.
Finally, these players are just massively overrated as well. I don't understand how they all get the hype they get. Rice??? 100 millionVDV sais the same. Bellingham? No chance is he a world superstar. All season I heard how great Walker is?? Really, ffs!! The only England players to come out of this with any credit are the ones that got limited minutes. But I bet they would have looked crap as well if they started.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
These are all players who have dominated at the highest club level...so for you to call them rubbish shows how little you know. Walker one of the most decorated players in English history!
It is the managers job to get the best out of players playing them in a system that achieves this. That is where is all falls down. Players like Cucurella frequently embarrass themselves in the PL, bang average. Morata is a non-scoring forward yet they were both integral to a Spanish TEAM that won every game...and that is down to their quality but more significantly the coaching, which made them a TEAM greater than the sum of their parts and had them performing at a high level within a very effective system, as a TEAM.
England looked clueless in possession and its no wonder given the chopped and changed selection and formation and line-ups that had never stepped on the field of play together before.
posted on 16/7/24
I doubt Walker would be asked to play in a 3-at-the-back formation for his club against elite opposition.
posted on 16/7/24
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 2 hours, 43 minutes ago
That's not the first time today I've heard Wharton (16 games for Crystal Palace) name-checked. Is he the hype train's next stop, the next Josh McEachran or Jack Wilshere?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is part of the problem. The players arent as good as people think they are
posted on 16/7/24
Systematic failure.
For some reason, we want to play all the best players together rather than see if they can play together in a system that gets the best out of them. And it's not like we have a prime Messi or Ronaldo to build the team around.
posted on 16/7/24
comment by Baz tard - Ineos your face, proud owner of the 100k comment, fack you Michael Edward’s and your 5m, th (U19119)
posted 39 minutes ago
comment by it'sonlyagame (U6426)
posted 2 hours, 43 minutes ago
That's not the first time today I've heard Wharton (16 games for Crystal Palace) name-checked. Is he the hype train's next stop, the next Josh McEachran or Jack Wilshere?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is part of the problem. The players arent as good as people think they are
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We do tend to overrate players, be it ours or ones from abroad.
Bellingham for instance could turn out to be a great player but the hype around him after the first game was like we were watching Zidane. Truth is he was disappointing in this tournament. Two fine goals bit at times his touch was bad, he wasn't on Foden's wave length when they did try and combine and half the time he held on to the ball far too long.
posted on 16/7/24
but at the same time we are all in agreement these players havent had the same coach? switch managers of england and spain and u think spain still win witth southgate managing them?
posted on 16/7/24
most that spanish team prob wouldnt be in the squad under southgate he'd find his spanish trippier maguire phillips etc.
posted on 16/7/24
Statistically speaking (per uefa.com), England and Spain did a remarkably similar amount of running and passing in the tournament, but going forwards Spain seemed to have a systematic intent and purpose that England lacked.
There was also a major difference in how each team pressed. Spain's tended to be higher and better organised, leading to significantly more ball recovery high up the pitch. A big part of that, imo, was the difference between Morata's and Kane's contributions.
Southgate didn't use his squad anywhere near as well as De La Fuente either. The distribution of minutes was much more unevenly spread out. Even accounting for the extra 30 minutes England played, England's starters played more minutes than Spain's.
Admittedly, part of that was due to Spain rotating virtually the entire team in the third group game, but with both Kane and Bellingham looking fairly jaded from pretty much the first game, you have to wonder whether Southgate couldn't have given them more rest in the group stages.
posted on 16/7/24
look how poor cucurellas been for chelsea yet the spanish coach slaps him in and hes one of the players of the tourn lol
posted on 16/7/24
Looks at Spain
Average keeper
CB who plays in Saudi Arabia
Cucarella
Squad players like Joselu
Yes they have some very good players like Rodri and Yamal but the Spanish triumph is more about the team being the sum of its parts rather than fitting in all the best players at the expense of a system.
posted on 16/7/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
These are all players who have dominated at the highest club level...so for you to call them rubbish shows how little you know. Walker one of the most decorated players in English history!
It is the managers job to get the best out of players playing them in a system that achieves this. That is where is all falls down. Players like Cucurella frequently embarrass themselves in the PL, bang average. Morata is a non-scoring forward yet they were both integral to a Spanish TEAM that won every game...and that is down to their quality but more significantly the coaching, which made them a TEAM greater than the sum of their parts and had them performing at a high level within a very effective system, as a TEAM.
England looked clueless in possession and its no wonder given the chopped and changed selection and formation and line-ups that had never stepped on the field of play together before.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comparatively speaking though, it's true.
That isn't to say that England don't have a good spread of elite level players, it's that their media (and the fans, as a result) often fail to acknowledge the same in their opponents.
Walker's a good example of that. Yes, he's been an elite full back for years, but how often is the same said of Carvajal? For years, the main focus has been his sheethousery, but here's a players who's started - and won - 6 Champions League finals. He was even Man of the Match in the most recent one. It was a similar case during Sergio Ramos's career. Just how much did he have to achieve before his actual value was recognised in England? Xavi was already a European champion with Spain and had masterminded Barça's midfield to a European/domestic treble, and he was still being rubbished in the English media.
You rubbish Cucurella, who was excellent for Brighton, had difficulty adapting in a Chelsea side that was misfiring all over the shop, but whose poor form at Chelsea, as any of their fans can tell you, ended months ago.
Just compare the widespread opinions about the Crystal Palace, Everton an Brentford contingent in the England squad? What makes these players any more 'elite' than Spain's footballers who are putting in excellent performances for European level clubs (e.g. Athletic Bilbao, Real Sociedad, PSG, RB Leipzig, Bayer Leverkusen) in Spain, Germany or France?
So yeah, while England do have a lot of quality players, it's largely the arrogance and inability to recognise that good football and good footballers exist elsewhere too.
My guess is that much of that has to do with the fact that the coverage and hyping of the PL product leads people into believing that the differences are much greater than they actually are.
posted on 16/7/24
It was like watching united all season.
Pathetic style of play and tactics.
Persistent selection of poor performing players.
Late subs.
posted on 16/7/24
That moment where Walker got the ball when England were 1-1 with Spain and had them on the ropes and he passed back to Pickford for no reason and he hoofed it out of play summed up the negative tactics. Apparently Southgate was going to bring on Trippier and Gallagher if it went to extra time and probably hold out for penalties.
Winning trophies especially at international level is all about moments and after 8 years in charge you’d think GS would have finally understood when to go for broke. He never did and now he’ll never have a better chance to win a trophy as we all saw Spain were there for the taking at 1-1
posted on 16/7/24
Bellingham was supposedly furious with GS too during the game.
posted on 16/7/24
I doubt he’d take the job but I feel Ancelotti would take England over the line finally
posted on 16/7/24
Bellingham seemed more interested in throwing himself to the floor than really making a killer pass. I know he plays for Madrid so a lot of the time will get a free kick for his play acting but it is very tiresome.
posted on 16/7/24
comment by Ali - 🇪🇦 🏴 (U1192)
posted 14 minutes ago
It was like watching united all season.
Pathetic style of play and tactics.
Persistent selection of poor performing players.
Late subs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
same old england problem of not being coached well enough. the spanish were clearly well coached well drilled, team on paper inferior but everytthing else superior and tthat comes from the coaching.
posted on 16/7/24
comment by Robberto Garnacho (U22716)
posted 17 seconds ago
Looks at Spain
Average keeper
CB who plays in Saudi Arabia
Cucarella
Squad players like Joselu
Yes they have some very good players like Rodri and Yamal but the Spanish triumph is more about the team being the sum of its parts rather than fitting in all the best players at the expense of a system.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The 'average keeper' has kept out the PL Golden Gloves winner, who in turn was pilloried for months because he'd kept a nice English lad out of the Arsenal line-up.
Your appraisal of Simón as 'average' is based on the errors you've seen him make playing the ball out from the back - not on his aerial game or on his shot-stopping. And if he's made those mistakes, it's because he's tasked with playing the ball as if he was an extra defender, not because he's 'average'. Just think for a moment about the world of difference between his and Pickford's distribution in the final.
Laporte's in Saudi Arabia because he chose the money, not because he isn't a good centre back. And his and Le Normand's first-choice replacement is a six-time Champions League winner with over 400 games for Real Madrid. I thought Guéhi and Konsa both looked very good at the Euros, but what makes them superior to Spain's CBs?
Joselu? He might be a journeyman, but there must've been some use about him when Madrid to have him as a stop gap for a season. He bagged 5 Champions League goals during the season, and saved Madrid as an impact sub scoring a brace in the Champions League final? He's also got as many international goals than Toney and Watkins combined. Go figure.
Page 1 of 3