A lot of serious work has been done trying different approaches to knife crime and studying the effects. I would advocate following the available evidence rather than assuming we can come up with solutions sitting at our desks. In particular, it seems specialist experience tells us there's a silver bullet. Long sentences and authoritarian policing don't seem to be a cure, even if it seems intuitive that this is the best approach. As Silver alluded to, Glasgow (once the murder capital of western Europe) managed to half its knife crime. But it was a long, complicated effort, which encompassed both more proactive policing and lots of social interventions. It took a decade to have serious effects. This doesn't sound very appealing because we naturally want to stop this right away. Actually, I suspect it will get worse before it gets better because there's a whole generation of kids who missed out on crucial years of socialisation during the pandemic. Unfortunately, it's going to require sustained, patient, tenacious efforts. Big kneejerk reactions feel like the right thing to do, but I don't think they will be effective.
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure that's the case up here - <25yo get some sort of 'brain not yet developed' free pass for some appalling stuff - don't know the details.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If "up here" is Scotland then I wouldn't know. I should have clarified that this was for England and Wales
comment by Kamikaze Blue (U7450)
posted 1 minute ago
Yes we have a problem. The entire criminal justice system is fecked. Knives are a problem but the bigger problem the number of feral youth we have, and worse still the complete failure of our mental health services for young people. The only thing we have going for us is that a psycho teen with a kitchen knife is at least easier to deal with than a psycho teen with an assault rifle.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
we didn't used to have mental health services we used to have a clip round the ear
not saying that's the way to go but it seems to me if local communities aren't cohseive enough where the adults are telling the kids to stop acting up then they're going to end up with issues
it's a factor of things im sure but providing an environment where children have both boundaries and healthy outlets definitely comes into it, surely mental health services shouldn't be a solution
of course this could be nonsense as i've not gone deeply into it
These days there will be bleating by lily livered lefties, folk playing racism cards. HR lawyers. That said eradicate poverty and a lot goes away.
--------------------------------------------------------
So on one hand you need the lefties to substantively address the material conditions of the poor, but on the other hand you want authoritarians who won't let human rights get in the way of draconian measures? I guess Stalinism is the political platform you're looking for!
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is though. Those sentences are literally set out in law.
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is though. Those sentences are literally set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They aren't mate
They don't have to serve the minimum terms if they plead guilty, have been on remand or behave well.
It's not a single set of circumstances is it. Lots of knife crime comes down to kids carrying blades for self protection - with inevitable consequences. Other incidents like London Bridge are terrorist related. Others still like the guy in Bristol are down to us allowing mentally ill people to walk the streets unmonitored and untreated. Harsher sentencing might deter some in the first category but it certainly won't deter either terrorists or the mentally ill. In the Southport case I doubt that any legal sanction for carrying a blade would have worried him.
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is though. Those sentences are literally set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They aren't mate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes they are. The sentences for murder are set out in law.
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is though. Those sentences are literally set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They aren't mate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes they are. The sentences for murder are set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They don’t serve the terms though
Life sentence for stabbing someone.
Minimum 15 years for carrying a knife.
Only way to solve this issue is to be tough on it
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 4 minutes ago
Yes, agree VC. We don't want kids fearing the Police as we want them to actually go up to them if there's a crime.
Just a change in law/mindset is needed. If you're carrying a knife then it's an automatic (with very few mitigating factors) sanction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Automatic jail for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are circumstances where someone could be carrying a knife for legitimate reasons
When my son was a teenager he used to go fishing quite a lot, he had a little pen knife which he used to cut line with, he was stopped once by the police who patrol the local power station near where he used to fish and had it taken off him, despite it being pretty obvious what it was used for
comment by mx4 (U23184)
posted 8 seconds ago
comment by Kamikaze Blue (U7450)
posted 1 minute ago
Yes we have a problem. The entire criminal justice system is fecked. Knives are a problem but the bigger problem the number of feral youth we have, and worse still the complete failure of our mental health services for young people. The only thing we have going for us is that a psycho teen with a kitchen knife is at least easier to deal with than a psycho teen with an assault rifle.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
we didn't used to have mental health services we used to have a clip round the ear
not saying that's the way to go but it seems to me if local communities aren't cohseive enough where the adults are telling the kids to stop acting up then they're going to end up with issues
it's a factor of things im sure but providing an environment where children have both boundaries and healthy outlets definitely comes into it, surely mental health services shouldn't be a solution
of course this could be nonsense as i've not gone deeply into it
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you have evidence that children generally have fewer behavioural boundaries than they did in the past? Earlier this week someone on this forum was bemoaning the fact that it's not like the old days when kids would be out doing whatever they wanted for 8-9 hours a day and parents having no idea where they were. Nostalgia for 'back in the day' variously tells us we were much more free from nannying guardrails and that we were much more constrained by a healthy fear of our parents or the police. Meanwhile, every generation has had regular moral panics about the wildness and amorality of young people - back to the paranoia about switchblades in the 1950s and beyond.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 15 seconds ago
These days there will be bleating by lily livered lefties, folk playing racism cards. HR lawyers. That said eradicate poverty and a lot goes away.
--------------------------------------------------------
So on one hand you need the lefties to substantively address the material conditions of the poor, but on the other hand you want authoritarians who won't let human rights get in the way of draconian measures? I guess Stalinism is the political platform you're looking for!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm thrashing about, mate, I realise - frustrated! But we got to start somewhere and seeing as we don't have much money...
My point is Labour are IN with a large majority, they can do as they want but, as discussed, there has to be an 'all in' type message and just having that crackdown is part of progress without doing much else.
Practically, we have to get tough on some sh.t so if knife crime is big in Brixton then that should be reason enough to randomly stop and search folk in Brixton and face down the inevitable protests, don't be weak. The ridiculous thing is the very 'community leaders' wanting a better community will be the same ones out protesting about the approach. Sorry but WTF do you want, WTF do we all want as we might all get caught up.
FFS I go to a match in the US it is emptied pockets, through the metal detector then searched when it goes off. PITA but we all get on with it. Let's do it but naw, 100s of pyro getting into games here.
If lad are gonna cut about wear hoodies sorry you are getting searched as something to hide. Ditto larger groups loitering in hotspots. If plod wants to search me and the missus going back from the pub then PITA but get on with it, no issue.
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is though. Those sentences are literally set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They aren't mate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes they are. The sentences for murder are set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They don’t serve the terms though
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They very often do.
Also, you are being completely disingenuous by saying time on remand means they don't serve a sentence. Time on remand is literally time spent in jail. It's taken into account because they have quite literally already been served.
It's like claiming that someone didn't serve 20 years, only 15, if you ignore the first 5 years they served.
comment by Kamikaze Blue (U7450)
posted 5 minutes ago
It's not a single set of circumstances is it. Lots of knife crime comes down to kids carrying blades for self protection - with inevitable consequences. Other incidents like London Bridge are terrorist related. Others still like the guy in Bristol are down to us allowing mentally ill people to walk the streets unmonitored and untreated. Harsher sentencing might deter some in the first category but it certainly won't deter either terrorists or the mentally ill. In the Southport case I doubt that any legal sanction for carrying a blade would have worried him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This. It's important to be very precise about what issues are and what causes them, and address each distinct issue and cause. If you conflate things and muddy your thinking about them, you're much less likely to come up with effective solutions.
comment by Brian Gittins (U1449)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 4 minutes ago
Yes, agree VC. We don't want kids fearing the Police as we want them to actually go up to them if there's a crime.
Just a change in law/mindset is needed. If you're carrying a knife then it's an automatic (with very few mitigating factors) sanction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Automatic jail for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are circumstances where someone could be carrying a knife for legitimate reasons
When my son was a teenager he used to go fishing quite a lot, he had a little pen knife which he used to cut line with, he was stopped once by the police who patrol the local power station near where he used to fish and had it taken off him, despite it being pretty obvious what it was used for
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, that's a mitigating reason there. That's pretty poor really as an outdoor activity needs to be encouraged.
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Brian Gittins (U1449)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 4 minutes ago
Yes, agree VC. We don't want kids fearing the Police as we want them to actually go up to them if there's a crime.
Just a change in law/mindset is needed. If you're carrying a knife then it's an automatic (with very few mitigating factors) sanction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Automatic jail for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are circumstances where someone could be carrying a knife for legitimate reasons
When my son was a teenager he used to go fishing quite a lot, he had a little pen knife which he used to cut line with, he was stopped once by the police who patrol the local power station near where he used to fish and had it taken off him, despite it being pretty obvious what it was used for
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, that's a mitigating reason there. That's pretty poor really as an outdoor activity needs to be encouraged.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Alternative is if its carried in a secure bag, box etc with a code to access instead of a knife hidden in trousers fir example
comment by Onana what's my name? (U14210)
posted 1 minute ago
Alternative is if its carried in a secure bag, box etc with a code to access instead of a knife hidden in trousers fir example
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LIke a large mutton dagger?
We need strong leaders across Europe. Too many people pleasers in positions of power who don't want to upset anyone. Starmer is the prime example.
A hard shift to conservatism across Europe would sort this out within 5 years.
Look at what is being achieved in Holland, Italy and (hopefully soon) France.
Forget pleasing everyone and start rattling cages.
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 6 seconds ago
We need strong leaders across Europe. Too many people pleasers in positions of power who don't want to upset anyone. Starmer is the prime example.
A hard shift to conservatism across Europe would sort this out within 5 years.
Look at what is being achieved in Holland, Italy and (hopefully soon) France.
Forget pleasing everyone and start rattling cages.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep those last 14 years Starmer's Labour government have been the issue...
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 6 seconds ago
We need strong leaders across Europe. Too many people pleasers in positions of power who don't want to upset anyone. Starmer is the prime example.
A hard shift to conservatism across Europe would sort this out within 5 years.
Look at what is being achieved in Holland, Italy and (hopefully soon) France.
Forget pleasing everyone and start rattling cages.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep those last 14 years Starmer's Labour government have been the issue...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Starmer is just a people pleaser.
We need Reform in power.
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 6 seconds ago
We need strong leaders across Europe. Too many people pleasers in positions of power who don't want to upset anyone. Starmer is the prime example.
A hard shift to conservatism across Europe would sort this out within 5 years.
Look at what is being achieved in Holland, Italy and (hopefully soon) France.
Forget pleasing everyone and start rattling cages.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep those last 14 years Starmer's Labour government have been the issue...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, notably Italy and Netherlands had centrist governments and much lower knife crime over the long period of right-wing rule in the UK. Italy's new nationalist government, nor the Dutch coalition in which the far-right is a member, has not made significant policy changes in this area. But Culer is a habitual liar with no interest in the facts of the matter.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
Do you have evidence that children generally have fewer behavioural boundaries than they did in the past? Earlier this week someone on this forum was bemoaning the fact that it's not like the old days when kids would be out doing whatever they wanted for 8-9 hours a day and parents having no idea where they were. Nostalgia for 'back in the day' variously tells us we were much more free from nannying guardrails and that we were much more constrained by a healthy fear of our parents or the police. Meanwhile, every generation has had regular moral panics about the wildness and amorality of young people.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, hence I bounded my message to I may be talking nonense. I can't tell you whether my thoughts are nostalgia but I can tell you that my concerns about the level of mh issues in youngsters and the current level of knife crime aren't driven by moral panic.
Sign in if you want to comment
Knives = Is it a National emergency?
Page 2 of 5
posted on 31/7/24
A lot of serious work has been done trying different approaches to knife crime and studying the effects. I would advocate following the available evidence rather than assuming we can come up with solutions sitting at our desks. In particular, it seems specialist experience tells us there's a silver bullet. Long sentences and authoritarian policing don't seem to be a cure, even if it seems intuitive that this is the best approach. As Silver alluded to, Glasgow (once the murder capital of western Europe) managed to half its knife crime. But it was a long, complicated effort, which encompassed both more proactive policing and lots of social interventions. It took a decade to have serious effects. This doesn't sound very appealing because we naturally want to stop this right away. Actually, I suspect it will get worse before it gets better because there's a whole generation of kids who missed out on crucial years of socialisation during the pandemic. Unfortunately, it's going to require sustained, patient, tenacious efforts. Big kneejerk reactions feel like the right thing to do, but I don't think they will be effective.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Silver (U6112)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure that's the case up here - <25yo get some sort of 'brain not yet developed' free pass for some appalling stuff - don't know the details.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If "up here" is Scotland then I wouldn't know. I should have clarified that this was for England and Wales
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Kamikaze Blue (U7450)
posted 1 minute ago
Yes we have a problem. The entire criminal justice system is fecked. Knives are a problem but the bigger problem the number of feral youth we have, and worse still the complete failure of our mental health services for young people. The only thing we have going for us is that a psycho teen with a kitchen knife is at least easier to deal with than a psycho teen with an assault rifle.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
we didn't used to have mental health services we used to have a clip round the ear
not saying that's the way to go but it seems to me if local communities aren't cohseive enough where the adults are telling the kids to stop acting up then they're going to end up with issues
it's a factor of things im sure but providing an environment where children have both boundaries and healthy outlets definitely comes into it, surely mental health services shouldn't be a solution
of course this could be nonsense as i've not gone deeply into it
posted on 31/7/24
These days there will be bleating by lily livered lefties, folk playing racism cards. HR lawyers. That said eradicate poverty and a lot goes away.
--------------------------------------------------------
So on one hand you need the lefties to substantively address the material conditions of the poor, but on the other hand you want authoritarians who won't let human rights get in the way of draconian measures? I guess Stalinism is the political platform you're looking for!
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is though. Those sentences are literally set out in law.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is though. Those sentences are literally set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They aren't mate
posted on 31/7/24
They don't have to serve the minimum terms if they plead guilty, have been on remand or behave well.
posted on 31/7/24
It's not a single set of circumstances is it. Lots of knife crime comes down to kids carrying blades for self protection - with inevitable consequences. Other incidents like London Bridge are terrorist related. Others still like the guy in Bristol are down to us allowing mentally ill people to walk the streets unmonitored and untreated. Harsher sentencing might deter some in the first category but it certainly won't deter either terrorists or the mentally ill. In the Southport case I doubt that any legal sanction for carrying a blade would have worried him.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is though. Those sentences are literally set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They aren't mate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes they are. The sentences for murder are set out in law.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is though. Those sentences are literally set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They aren't mate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes they are. The sentences for murder are set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They don’t serve the terms though
posted on 31/7/24
Life sentence for stabbing someone.
Minimum 15 years for carrying a knife.
Only way to solve this issue is to be tough on it
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 4 minutes ago
Yes, agree VC. We don't want kids fearing the Police as we want them to actually go up to them if there's a crime.
Just a change in law/mindset is needed. If you're carrying a knife then it's an automatic (with very few mitigating factors) sanction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Automatic jail for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are circumstances where someone could be carrying a knife for legitimate reasons
When my son was a teenager he used to go fishing quite a lot, he had a little pen knife which he used to cut line with, he was stopped once by the police who patrol the local power station near where he used to fish and had it taken off him, despite it being pretty obvious what it was used for
posted on 31/7/24
comment by mx4 (U23184)
posted 8 seconds ago
comment by Kamikaze Blue (U7450)
posted 1 minute ago
Yes we have a problem. The entire criminal justice system is fecked. Knives are a problem but the bigger problem the number of feral youth we have, and worse still the complete failure of our mental health services for young people. The only thing we have going for us is that a psycho teen with a kitchen knife is at least easier to deal with than a psycho teen with an assault rifle.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
we didn't used to have mental health services we used to have a clip round the ear
not saying that's the way to go but it seems to me if local communities aren't cohseive enough where the adults are telling the kids to stop acting up then they're going to end up with issues
it's a factor of things im sure but providing an environment where children have both boundaries and healthy outlets definitely comes into it, surely mental health services shouldn't be a solution
of course this could be nonsense as i've not gone deeply into it
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you have evidence that children generally have fewer behavioural boundaries than they did in the past? Earlier this week someone on this forum was bemoaning the fact that it's not like the old days when kids would be out doing whatever they wanted for 8-9 hours a day and parents having no idea where they were. Nostalgia for 'back in the day' variously tells us we were much more free from nannying guardrails and that we were much more constrained by a healthy fear of our parents or the police. Meanwhile, every generation has had regular moral panics about the wildness and amorality of young people - back to the paranoia about switchblades in the 1950s and beyond.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 15 seconds ago
These days there will be bleating by lily livered lefties, folk playing racism cards. HR lawyers. That said eradicate poverty and a lot goes away.
--------------------------------------------------------
So on one hand you need the lefties to substantively address the material conditions of the poor, but on the other hand you want authoritarians who won't let human rights get in the way of draconian measures? I guess Stalinism is the political platform you're looking for!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm thrashing about, mate, I realise - frustrated! But we got to start somewhere and seeing as we don't have much money...
My point is Labour are IN with a large majority, they can do as they want but, as discussed, there has to be an 'all in' type message and just having that crackdown is part of progress without doing much else.
Practically, we have to get tough on some sh.t so if knife crime is big in Brixton then that should be reason enough to randomly stop and search folk in Brixton and face down the inevitable protests, don't be weak. The ridiculous thing is the very 'community leaders' wanting a better community will be the same ones out protesting about the approach. Sorry but WTF do you want, WTF do we all want as we might all get caught up.
FFS I go to a match in the US it is emptied pockets, through the metal detector then searched when it goes off. PITA but we all get on with it. Let's do it but naw, 100s of pyro getting into games here.
If lad are gonna cut about wear hoodies sorry you are getting searched as something to hide. Ditto larger groups loitering in hotspots. If plod wants to search me and the missus going back from the pub then PITA but get on with it, no issue.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 40 seconds ago
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 2 minutes ago
Make it a mandatory 20 year sentence, regardless of suspects age, if you murder someone with a knife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The starting point for murder with a knife or other weapon is already 25 years for an adult and 23 years for a 17 year old.
For the situation in Southport, the sentencing guidelines would be starting at 30 years for someone under 18 and it would likely be a whole-life order if they were over 18
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It isn't though because if people plead guilty they can end up only doing 10 or 11 years, good behaviour factored in and also time spent on remand.
Make it a full 20 years served in jail without any exception.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is though. Those sentences are literally set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They aren't mate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes they are. The sentences for murder are set out in law.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They don’t serve the terms though
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They very often do.
Also, you are being completely disingenuous by saying time on remand means they don't serve a sentence. Time on remand is literally time spent in jail. It's taken into account because they have quite literally already been served.
It's like claiming that someone didn't serve 20 years, only 15, if you ignore the first 5 years they served.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Kamikaze Blue (U7450)
posted 5 minutes ago
It's not a single set of circumstances is it. Lots of knife crime comes down to kids carrying blades for self protection - with inevitable consequences. Other incidents like London Bridge are terrorist related. Others still like the guy in Bristol are down to us allowing mentally ill people to walk the streets unmonitored and untreated. Harsher sentencing might deter some in the first category but it certainly won't deter either terrorists or the mentally ill. In the Southport case I doubt that any legal sanction for carrying a blade would have worried him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This. It's important to be very precise about what issues are and what causes them, and address each distinct issue and cause. If you conflate things and muddy your thinking about them, you're much less likely to come up with effective solutions.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Brian Gittins (U1449)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 4 minutes ago
Yes, agree VC. We don't want kids fearing the Police as we want them to actually go up to them if there's a crime.
Just a change in law/mindset is needed. If you're carrying a knife then it's an automatic (with very few mitigating factors) sanction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Automatic jail for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are circumstances where someone could be carrying a knife for legitimate reasons
When my son was a teenager he used to go fishing quite a lot, he had a little pen knife which he used to cut line with, he was stopped once by the police who patrol the local power station near where he used to fish and had it taken off him, despite it being pretty obvious what it was used for
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, that's a mitigating reason there. That's pretty poor really as an outdoor activity needs to be encouraged.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Brian Gittins (U1449)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 4 minutes ago
Yes, agree VC. We don't want kids fearing the Police as we want them to actually go up to them if there's a crime.
Just a change in law/mindset is needed. If you're carrying a knife then it's an automatic (with very few mitigating factors) sanction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Automatic jail for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are circumstances where someone could be carrying a knife for legitimate reasons
When my son was a teenager he used to go fishing quite a lot, he had a little pen knife which he used to cut line with, he was stopped once by the police who patrol the local power station near where he used to fish and had it taken off him, despite it being pretty obvious what it was used for
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, that's a mitigating reason there. That's pretty poor really as an outdoor activity needs to be encouraged.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Alternative is if its carried in a secure bag, box etc with a code to access instead of a knife hidden in trousers fir example
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Onana what's my name? (U14210)
posted 1 minute ago
Alternative is if its carried in a secure bag, box etc with a code to access instead of a knife hidden in trousers fir example
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LIke a large mutton dagger?
posted on 31/7/24
We need strong leaders across Europe. Too many people pleasers in positions of power who don't want to upset anyone. Starmer is the prime example.
A hard shift to conservatism across Europe would sort this out within 5 years.
Look at what is being achieved in Holland, Italy and (hopefully soon) France.
Forget pleasing everyone and start rattling cages.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 6 seconds ago
We need strong leaders across Europe. Too many people pleasers in positions of power who don't want to upset anyone. Starmer is the prime example.
A hard shift to conservatism across Europe would sort this out within 5 years.
Look at what is being achieved in Holland, Italy and (hopefully soon) France.
Forget pleasing everyone and start rattling cages.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep those last 14 years Starmer's Labour government have been the issue...
posted on 31/7/24
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 6 seconds ago
We need strong leaders across Europe. Too many people pleasers in positions of power who don't want to upset anyone. Starmer is the prime example.
A hard shift to conservatism across Europe would sort this out within 5 years.
Look at what is being achieved in Holland, Italy and (hopefully soon) France.
Forget pleasing everyone and start rattling cages.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep those last 14 years Starmer's Labour government have been the issue...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Starmer is just a people pleaser.
We need Reform in power.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by welshpoolfan (U7693)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Mr Boggart Hole (U9489)
posted 6 seconds ago
We need strong leaders across Europe. Too many people pleasers in positions of power who don't want to upset anyone. Starmer is the prime example.
A hard shift to conservatism across Europe would sort this out within 5 years.
Look at what is being achieved in Holland, Italy and (hopefully soon) France.
Forget pleasing everyone and start rattling cages.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep those last 14 years Starmer's Labour government have been the issue...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, notably Italy and Netherlands had centrist governments and much lower knife crime over the long period of right-wing rule in the UK. Italy's new nationalist government, nor the Dutch coalition in which the far-right is a member, has not made significant policy changes in this area. But Culer is a habitual liar with no interest in the facts of the matter.
posted on 31/7/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
Do you have evidence that children generally have fewer behavioural boundaries than they did in the past? Earlier this week someone on this forum was bemoaning the fact that it's not like the old days when kids would be out doing whatever they wanted for 8-9 hours a day and parents having no idea where they were. Nostalgia for 'back in the day' variously tells us we were much more free from nannying guardrails and that we were much more constrained by a healthy fear of our parents or the police. Meanwhile, every generation has had regular moral panics about the wildness and amorality of young people.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, hence I bounded my message to I may be talking nonense. I can't tell you whether my thoughts are nostalgia but I can tell you that my concerns about the level of mh issues in youngsters and the current level of knife crime aren't driven by moral panic.
Page 2 of 5