ETH brought off Bruno in the second half against Brighton, which suggests he's willing to do it if he has other players he feels he can call on.
If anyone wants to go in depth into this season's pressing structure and implications for our tactics, I recommend this episode of the Devils in the Details podcast, featuring the excellent John Mackenzie (from Tifo) as a guest:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0Xz1CjV4SGLOiHi35QHeny
So you're suggesting dropping Bruno for Mount
Lordy 🤣
comment by Onana_banana_fi_fa_fofana (U20611)
posted 49 seconds ago
So you're suggesting dropping Bruno for Mount
Lordy 🤣
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If Bruno isn't on it, then he needs to be dropped, just like any other player. Or he will occasionally need to be rested rather than play him to death - I think ETH has felt he's not always been able to do that, due to a lack of cover, but we could play Mainoo up there and have Ugarte and Cas behind. Occasionally it may mean Mount being in there instead of Bruno.
Sometimes managers need to make these big decisions (resting / dropping Mainoo is another example) Or do you just want to play the same 11 every game..
It's good to see Mount showing a bit of confidence and form... Anyone who saw him at his best for Chelsea knows the levels he can achieve.
Fitting him in will always be the issue, as Bruno is consistent and not injury prone.... But he will get chances in his main position and can hopefully keep some form up. Or ETH will find a way to play both players, though I struggle to see how without minimising at least one player.
Always thought Mount was a weird buy for Utd with Bruno in the team. Was notable the other day how good your high press was with Mount and how it dropped off a bit without him in the 2nd half. Urgate Mainoo + Bruno seems like a nice balance. Seems a bit of a struggle to get Mount in the team if you are playing a striker too. Dont think either Bruno or Mount would be happy job sharing the same position.
BTW, is Bruno still Captain?
Bruno is a challenge because he's 1) our best player and we don't have enough quality in the squad to produces chances without him and 2) accommodating him creates barriers to maximising effectiveness of other players. E.g. Pogba in a double pivot wasn't reliable, but we know how much better he could be in a three-man midfield with less defensive responsibility. A similar dynamic now where we worry about getting all the necessary capabilities (defensive coverage and ball winning, ball progression, controlled possession) from the two players behind Bruno. To be clear, this isn't just about things Bruno personally doesn't do well, but about a structure that deploys an attacking midfielder in the role he has been given.
Could Mount not be deployed out wide perhaps? Or even as one of the middle two in a 4222 formation?
Having Mount in the team is proving useful in terms of a high press, although obviously it just can't be him on his own. But we also want to have a focal point up front who will hopefully make some decent runs and we can create chances for. Right now it seems one or the other, but can't we have both?
----------------------------
Is the press more effective with Mount purely because he is in the side? Or is it the 424 formation we set up in which puts him alongside Bruno (who is also a very good presser, btw)?
I think a combination of both probably, but don't think it's as simple as putting Mount behind a striker and it solves that issue.
This Mount hype is absolutely ridiculous. He's been closing people down and now that's enough for people to be in the team.
Where are the goals, assists and chances he's creating for others?
Our fanbase are far too easily pleased. When we have a full compliment of attackers available and they are match fit, Mason Mount will be sat on the bench.
What's wrong with trying different combinations to find out what works best?
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 55 seconds ago
This Mount hype is absolutely ridiculous. He's been closing people down and now that's enough for people to be in the team.
Where are the goals, assists and chances he's creating for others?
Our fanbase are far too easily pleased. When we have a full compliment of attackers available and they are match fit, Mason Mount will be sat on the bench.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For the high pressure to work, we need people closing down high up the pitch. It's worked well so far and created us chances, unfortunately we haven't managed to take many of them. If we had, we'd have won both games comfortably
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 2 minutes ago
This Mount hype is absolutely ridiculous. He's been closing people down and now that's enough for people to be in the team.
Where are the goals, assists and chances he's creating for others?
Our fanbase are far too easily pleased. When we have a full compliment of attackers available and they are match fit, Mason Mount will be sat on the bench.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In two games? He deserves a run.
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 10 minutes ago
This Mount hype is absolutely ridiculous. He's been closing people down and now that's enough for people to be in the team.
Where are the goals, assists and chances he's creating for others?
Our fanbase are far too easily pleased. When we have a full compliment of attackers available and they are match fit, Mason Mount will be sat on the bench.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Might be time for you to do a Culer style mental health break if people talking about tactics and formations makes you this angry.
Forum members: "Mount presents a bit of a conundrum because on one hand he makes our high press far more effective, leading to ball recoveries in dangerous situations, while on the other hand he isn't as adept as the other players competing for a place in the front five at translating those situations into goal scoring opportunities, and this particularly raises questions about our strategy when Hojlund is fit to play"
SE85: "This Mount hype is absolutely ridiculous. He's been closing people down and now that's enough for people to be in the team. (ETH out.)"
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 21 minutes ago
Could Mount not be deployed out wide perhaps? Or even as one of the middle two in a 4222 formation?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. If he stays fit, we’re gonna see the 4-2-4 with Mount or Bruno on the right from time to time.
Unfortunately Mount just doesn't have enough in his game to be our primary player maker. The only way to get him in this team is in the current formation.
If Ugarte turns out to be a good shield Mount could get some game time in place of Mainoo...
Those are the only two scenarios where he fits in...
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 9 minutes ago
What's wrong with trying different combinations to find out what works best?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If it is trying the least creative players because they "close down really hard"...
The time to build a team that uses Mount best is not here yet. Score a goal, create a few chances because as it is, this is the exact thing Hannibal was doing.
Where are the goals, assists and chances he's creating for others?
------------------------------
Can you not see how an effective press helps to create chances though?
I agree with you to an extent about Mount not being productive enouh and I'm not saying he should or shouldn't be starting but it's certainly a debate worth having. And far more interesting than this childish approach you now have of saying that anyone who doesn't see things the way you do in your black and white world is 'too easily pleased' or 'has no standards'
I think we might see Mount and Bruno starting in midfield from time to time.
It wasn’t an effective tactic when ETH tried it last season, however, the injuries in defence and midfield didn’t really help.
Score a goal, create a few chances because as it is, this is the exact thing Hannibal was doing.
-------------------------------------------------
There are plenty of energetic players, but they aren't all doing the same thing. Mount is elite at leading a high press, which is not just about effort, not just about having the athletic attributes to make more sprints and recovery runs than most footballers are capable of, but also having the tactical intelligence to understand when and how to press. Bruno works very hard and covers a lot of ground but he isn't as good as Mount in the press. Mejbri ran around energetically in midfield.
I am more worried by the hype to "The press". This isn't some miraculous tactical discovery, Its filling out the midfield with effectively 4 central midfielders. One of the reasons Ten Hag was successful in Ajax was because of it using Tadic there. If we get some goals maybe it will pan out, but it requires everyone being able to get goals. Right now only Amad and Garnacho seem to have some bite. We are going to need goals.
Mount's workrate is all good and nice but if we aren't scoring, he's going to be the first sub every single time because he's the last one on the list for that.
"Mount is Elite at leading a high press" is like saying a tall defender is good at winning headers. Yes its a good skill, No it is not what we base a team around. When the chips are down, we are going to decide what we need to win, or just look good.
I cannot see Mount the same way you guys talk about him. He should be on the bench for Ugarte tbh and bringing him on as a sub would be a mistake.
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 6 minutes ago
I am more worried by the hype to "The press". This isn't some miraculous tactical discovery, Its filling out the midfield with effectively 4 central midfielders. One of the reasons Ten Hag was successful in Ajax was because of it using Tadic there. If we get some goals maybe it will pan out, but it requires everyone being able to get goals. Right now only Amad and Garnacho seem to have some bite. We are going to need goals.
Mount's workrate is all good and nice but if we aren't scoring, he's going to be the first sub every single time because he's the last one on the list for that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's why Mount is only part of the answer - it needs the whole team to be doing the same thing in a coherent manner, and that's what we have been lacking. The injuries didn't help last season, but we can't be that fragile that one player (i.e. Mount) seems to be so key to this.
I can imagine us trying out a few different combos with our midfield 5, but even allowing for this, I hope this doesn't hinder the progress we want to see over the coming months. And we need to sharpen our shooting boots - even if we play a striker up top, I think we are more a team where the goals are really spread around rather than a 25-30 goal season striker atm - we keep saying we are creating more chances, but we need to finish them
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 6 minutes ago
I am more worried by the hype to "The press". This isn't some miraculous tactical discovery, Its filling out the midfield with effectively 4 central midfielders. One of the reasons Ten Hag was successful in Ajax was because of it using Tadic there. If we get some goals maybe it will pan out, but it requires everyone being able to get goals. Right now only Amad and Garnacho seem to have some bite. We are going to need goals.
Mount's workrate is all good and nice but if we aren't scoring, he's going to be the first sub every single time because he's the last one on the list for that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's why Mount is only part of the answer - it needs the whole team to be doing the same thing in a coherent manner, and that's what we have been lacking. The injuries didn't help last season, but we can't be that fragile that one player (i.e. Mount) seems to be so key to this.
I can imagine us trying out a few different combos with our midfield 5, but even allowing for this, I hope this doesn't hinder the progress we want to see over the coming months. And we need to sharpen our shooting boots - even if we play a striker up top, I think we are more a team where the goals are really spread around rather than a 25-30 goal season striker atm - we keep saying we are creating more chances, but we need to finish them
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is the press more effective with Mount purely because he is in the side? Or is it the 424 formation we set up in which puts him alongside Bruno (who is also a very good presser, btw)?
I think a combination of both probably, but don't think it's as simple as putting Mount behind a striker and it solves that issue.
-----------------------------------------
This is a good question and it's something to keep an eye on in the coming weeks and months. I think with both Mount and also Amad in the team, the press will have improved simply due to them both being better suited to doing that and also because the players are better rested at the start of the season.
As has already been mentioned though, pressing is only a part of the game and we need to find a balance between it, first and second phase progression, creating chances when we're in settled possession and then converting chances.
Long term I don't think we can play without a focal point in attack and I don't think this leaves a lot of room for Mount.
Sign in if you want to comment
Fitting in Mount and a striker
Page 1 of 2
posted on 28/8/24
ETH brought off Bruno in the second half against Brighton, which suggests he's willing to do it if he has other players he feels he can call on.
If anyone wants to go in depth into this season's pressing structure and implications for our tactics, I recommend this episode of the Devils in the Details podcast, featuring the excellent John Mackenzie (from Tifo) as a guest:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0Xz1CjV4SGLOiHi35QHeny
posted on 28/8/24
So you're suggesting dropping Bruno for Mount
Lordy 🤣
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Onana_banana_fi_fa_fofana (U20611)
posted 49 seconds ago
So you're suggesting dropping Bruno for Mount
Lordy 🤣
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If Bruno isn't on it, then he needs to be dropped, just like any other player. Or he will occasionally need to be rested rather than play him to death - I think ETH has felt he's not always been able to do that, due to a lack of cover, but we could play Mainoo up there and have Ugarte and Cas behind. Occasionally it may mean Mount being in there instead of Bruno.
Sometimes managers need to make these big decisions (resting / dropping Mainoo is another example) Or do you just want to play the same 11 every game..
posted on 28/8/24
It's good to see Mount showing a bit of confidence and form... Anyone who saw him at his best for Chelsea knows the levels he can achieve.
Fitting him in will always be the issue, as Bruno is consistent and not injury prone.... But he will get chances in his main position and can hopefully keep some form up. Or ETH will find a way to play both players, though I struggle to see how without minimising at least one player.
posted on 28/8/24
Always thought Mount was a weird buy for Utd with Bruno in the team. Was notable the other day how good your high press was with Mount and how it dropped off a bit without him in the 2nd half. Urgate Mainoo + Bruno seems like a nice balance. Seems a bit of a struggle to get Mount in the team if you are playing a striker too. Dont think either Bruno or Mount would be happy job sharing the same position.
BTW, is Bruno still Captain?
posted on 28/8/24
Bruno is a challenge because he's 1) our best player and we don't have enough quality in the squad to produces chances without him and 2) accommodating him creates barriers to maximising effectiveness of other players. E.g. Pogba in a double pivot wasn't reliable, but we know how much better he could be in a three-man midfield with less defensive responsibility. A similar dynamic now where we worry about getting all the necessary capabilities (defensive coverage and ball winning, ball progression, controlled possession) from the two players behind Bruno. To be clear, this isn't just about things Bruno personally doesn't do well, but about a structure that deploys an attacking midfielder in the role he has been given.
posted on 28/8/24
Could Mount not be deployed out wide perhaps? Or even as one of the middle two in a 4222 formation?
posted on 28/8/24
Having Mount in the team is proving useful in terms of a high press, although obviously it just can't be him on his own. But we also want to have a focal point up front who will hopefully make some decent runs and we can create chances for. Right now it seems one or the other, but can't we have both?
----------------------------
Is the press more effective with Mount purely because he is in the side? Or is it the 424 formation we set up in which puts him alongside Bruno (who is also a very good presser, btw)?
I think a combination of both probably, but don't think it's as simple as putting Mount behind a striker and it solves that issue.
posted on 28/8/24
This Mount hype is absolutely ridiculous. He's been closing people down and now that's enough for people to be in the team.
Where are the goals, assists and chances he's creating for others?
Our fanbase are far too easily pleased. When we have a full compliment of attackers available and they are match fit, Mason Mount will be sat on the bench.
posted on 28/8/24
What's wrong with trying different combinations to find out what works best?
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 55 seconds ago
This Mount hype is absolutely ridiculous. He's been closing people down and now that's enough for people to be in the team.
Where are the goals, assists and chances he's creating for others?
Our fanbase are far too easily pleased. When we have a full compliment of attackers available and they are match fit, Mason Mount will be sat on the bench.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For the high pressure to work, we need people closing down high up the pitch. It's worked well so far and created us chances, unfortunately we haven't managed to take many of them. If we had, we'd have won both games comfortably
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 2 minutes ago
This Mount hype is absolutely ridiculous. He's been closing people down and now that's enough for people to be in the team.
Where are the goals, assists and chances he's creating for others?
Our fanbase are far too easily pleased. When we have a full compliment of attackers available and they are match fit, Mason Mount will be sat on the bench.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In two games? He deserves a run.
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 10 minutes ago
This Mount hype is absolutely ridiculous. He's been closing people down and now that's enough for people to be in the team.
Where are the goals, assists and chances he's creating for others?
Our fanbase are far too easily pleased. When we have a full compliment of attackers available and they are match fit, Mason Mount will be sat on the bench.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Might be time for you to do a Culer style mental health break if people talking about tactics and formations makes you this angry.
posted on 28/8/24
Forum members: "Mount presents a bit of a conundrum because on one hand he makes our high press far more effective, leading to ball recoveries in dangerous situations, while on the other hand he isn't as adept as the other players competing for a place in the front five at translating those situations into goal scoring opportunities, and this particularly raises questions about our strategy when Hojlund is fit to play"
SE85: "This Mount hype is absolutely ridiculous. He's been closing people down and now that's enough for people to be in the team. (ETH out.)"
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 21 minutes ago
Could Mount not be deployed out wide perhaps? Or even as one of the middle two in a 4222 formation?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. If he stays fit, we’re gonna see the 4-2-4 with Mount or Bruno on the right from time to time.
posted on 28/8/24
Unfortunately Mount just doesn't have enough in his game to be our primary player maker. The only way to get him in this team is in the current formation.
If Ugarte turns out to be a good shield Mount could get some game time in place of Mainoo...
Those are the only two scenarios where he fits in...
posted on 28/8/24
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 9 minutes ago
What's wrong with trying different combinations to find out what works best?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If it is trying the least creative players because they "close down really hard"...
The time to build a team that uses Mount best is not here yet. Score a goal, create a few chances because as it is, this is the exact thing Hannibal was doing.
posted on 28/8/24
Where are the goals, assists and chances he's creating for others?
------------------------------
Can you not see how an effective press helps to create chances though?
I agree with you to an extent about Mount not being productive enouh and I'm not saying he should or shouldn't be starting but it's certainly a debate worth having. And far more interesting than this childish approach you now have of saying that anyone who doesn't see things the way you do in your black and white world is 'too easily pleased' or 'has no standards'
posted on 28/8/24
I think we might see Mount and Bruno starting in midfield from time to time.
It wasn’t an effective tactic when ETH tried it last season, however, the injuries in defence and midfield didn’t really help.
posted on 28/8/24
Score a goal, create a few chances because as it is, this is the exact thing Hannibal was doing.
-------------------------------------------------
There are plenty of energetic players, but they aren't all doing the same thing. Mount is elite at leading a high press, which is not just about effort, not just about having the athletic attributes to make more sprints and recovery runs than most footballers are capable of, but also having the tactical intelligence to understand when and how to press. Bruno works very hard and covers a lot of ground but he isn't as good as Mount in the press. Mejbri ran around energetically in midfield.
posted on 28/8/24
I am more worried by the hype to "The press". This isn't some miraculous tactical discovery, Its filling out the midfield with effectively 4 central midfielders. One of the reasons Ten Hag was successful in Ajax was because of it using Tadic there. If we get some goals maybe it will pan out, but it requires everyone being able to get goals. Right now only Amad and Garnacho seem to have some bite. We are going to need goals.
Mount's workrate is all good and nice but if we aren't scoring, he's going to be the first sub every single time because he's the last one on the list for that.
posted on 28/8/24
"Mount is Elite at leading a high press" is like saying a tall defender is good at winning headers. Yes its a good skill, No it is not what we base a team around. When the chips are down, we are going to decide what we need to win, or just look good.
I cannot see Mount the same way you guys talk about him. He should be on the bench for Ugarte tbh and bringing him on as a sub would be a mistake.
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 6 minutes ago
I am more worried by the hype to "The press". This isn't some miraculous tactical discovery, Its filling out the midfield with effectively 4 central midfielders. One of the reasons Ten Hag was successful in Ajax was because of it using Tadic there. If we get some goals maybe it will pan out, but it requires everyone being able to get goals. Right now only Amad and Garnacho seem to have some bite. We are going to need goals.
Mount's workrate is all good and nice but if we aren't scoring, he's going to be the first sub every single time because he's the last one on the list for that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's why Mount is only part of the answer - it needs the whole team to be doing the same thing in a coherent manner, and that's what we have been lacking. The injuries didn't help last season, but we can't be that fragile that one player (i.e. Mount) seems to be so key to this.
I can imagine us trying out a few different combos with our midfield 5, but even allowing for this, I hope this doesn't hinder the progress we want to see over the coming months. And we need to sharpen our shooting boots - even if we play a striker up top, I think we are more a team where the goals are really spread around rather than a 25-30 goal season striker atm - we keep saying we are creating more chances, but we need to finish them
posted on 28/8/24
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson... (U12026)
posted 6 minutes ago
I am more worried by the hype to "The press". This isn't some miraculous tactical discovery, Its filling out the midfield with effectively 4 central midfielders. One of the reasons Ten Hag was successful in Ajax was because of it using Tadic there. If we get some goals maybe it will pan out, but it requires everyone being able to get goals. Right now only Amad and Garnacho seem to have some bite. We are going to need goals.
Mount's workrate is all good and nice but if we aren't scoring, he's going to be the first sub every single time because he's the last one on the list for that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's why Mount is only part of the answer - it needs the whole team to be doing the same thing in a coherent manner, and that's what we have been lacking. The injuries didn't help last season, but we can't be that fragile that one player (i.e. Mount) seems to be so key to this.
I can imagine us trying out a few different combos with our midfield 5, but even allowing for this, I hope this doesn't hinder the progress we want to see over the coming months. And we need to sharpen our shooting boots - even if we play a striker up top, I think we are more a team where the goals are really spread around rather than a 25-30 goal season striker atm - we keep saying we are creating more chances, but we need to finish them
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 28/8/24
Is the press more effective with Mount purely because he is in the side? Or is it the 424 formation we set up in which puts him alongside Bruno (who is also a very good presser, btw)?
I think a combination of both probably, but don't think it's as simple as putting Mount behind a striker and it solves that issue.
-----------------------------------------
This is a good question and it's something to keep an eye on in the coming weeks and months. I think with both Mount and also Amad in the team, the press will have improved simply due to them both being better suited to doing that and also because the players are better rested at the start of the season.
As has already been mentioned though, pressing is only a part of the game and we need to find a balance between it, first and second phase progression, creating chances when we're in settled possession and then converting chances.
Long term I don't think we can play without a focal point in attack and I don't think this leaves a lot of room for Mount.
Page 1 of 2