comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 11 minutes ago
"Mount is Elite at leading a high press" is like saying a tall defender is good at winning headers. Yes its a good skill, No it is not what we base a team around. When the chips are down, we are going to decide what we need to win, or just look good.
I cannot see Mount the same way you guys talk about him. He should be on the bench for Ugarte tbh and bringing him on as a sub would be a mistake.
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It seems to me that the main discussion on this thread is between people who are saying "Mount's pressing is an asset, but his lack of creativity presents a problem" on one hand, and on the other hand people who pressing as running around a lot and of little substantive value. No one, as far as I can see, is arguing that Mount is the ideal player and first player on the team sheet. But all of the PL teams that are significantly better than us are far more adept than us at pinning teams back and winning the ball high up the pitch. This is about having well drilled pressing strategies (which is ETH's challenge), but also about having players with the physical capabilities and tactical understanding to execute the tactic. It's pretty clear that some of our players don't tick those boxes, some are OK, some are good. We'd love to be in a situation where we have talented, productive footballers who are also excellent pressers, but we don't have that luxury, which is why we have to talk about trade-offs. You appear to be unwilling to discuss these trade-offs, but rather to shrug off the idea that pressing might be an important thing for the team to be good at.
Hopefully we can sell him to West Ham next summer.
Your team seems to lack balance, not helped by the contribution of the wide players in particular.
Arsenal don't have a 20 goal a season guy but the front 3 tend to get 15 each, and they play with Odegard floating behind them. Rice Party and now Merino make up strong options for a double pivot behind them.
Other teams use of inverted FBs or players like Stones stepping into CM, giving them more freedom to make slightly more attacking team selections, esp. midfield. City usually only play with Rodri and players like Gundogan are more like Mount, able to press, get forward, get goals and assists, from a CM position where they will also have defensive responsibilities
Not sure if ETH doesnt adopt this kinda system or just that the defensive players lack skills to step into midfield. But for me, when i watch Utd, your system seems quite rigid. FBs generally wide and over lapping. Wide attackers wide and cutting in, Bruno with more freedom. Mainoo and Casemiro pivoting.
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at), adding pace, and allowing one of the other defenders to step into midfield, releasing other midfielders. Bit like Walker does at City.
This sort of step up is the only way i could see Mount playing as any sort of CM role with Bruno and a striker in the team, as part of a high pressing team which has a defender stepping forward and also retains some pace at the back.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 43 seconds ago
Your team seems to lack balance, not helped by the contribution of the wide players in particular.
Arsenal don't have a 20 goal a season guy but the front 3 tend to get 15 each, and they play with Odegard floating behind them. Rice Party and now Merino make up strong options for a double pivot behind them.
Other teams use of inverted FBs or players like Stones stepping into CM, giving them more freedom to make slightly more attacking team selections, esp. midfield. City usually only play with Rodri and players like Gundogan are more like Mount, able to press, get forward, get goals and assists, from a CM position where they will also have defensive responsibilities
Not sure if ETH doesnt adopt this kinda system or just that the defensive players lack skills to step into midfield. But for me, when i watch Utd, your system seems quite rigid. FBs generally wide and over lapping. Wide attackers wide and cutting in, Bruno with more freedom. Mainoo and Casemiro pivoting.
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at), adding pace, and allowing one of the other defenders to step into midfield, releasing other midfielders. Bit like Walker does at City.
This sort of step up is the only way i could see Mount playing as any sort of CM role with Bruno and a striker in the team, as part of a high pressing team which has a defender stepping forward and also retains some pace at the back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We obviously have a number of issues, which we are trying to sort out with the various combos that ETH is / will be trying out. But even if that is sorted to a good degree, we just don't score enough goals, it's been a real issue for a good while now.
And last time I checked, goals wins you games
I don't have stats on this, but I wonder how many EPL games in the past 2 years have we scored 3 goals or more in. I am sure way less the other big clubs. All our wins seem to be a grind. You can't win all games at a canter, but we don't seem to do that in any.
Hopefully our defence will become stronger this season, but just as it is important to grind out wins, it's also important to occasionally give teams a good hiding.
We have scored less than 60 goals in the last 3 seasons - that says it all. We talk about all these missed chances - well at then of the day, it's just all talk. Maybe they should just watch RVN for a day.............
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at)
———
I find myself agreeing with Devonshire. I am adamant on everyone of them leaving because they just lack Balance. ETH wants a formation that cannot work without balance and yet we are here trying to make a team work with players who are not going to improve anytime soon and try and adjust them. We should be in a complete overhaul.
THe most balanced footballer on this team is probably Mainoo and many are here visualizing a team where he is "rested" for Mount, Casemiro and Bruno to team up with Ugarte, literally the most unbalanced players we probably have now (signing Ugarte will make or mar ETH).
We are watching teams and trying to copy them without basics. Lets hope they all round up their play, unless they intend to get ETH sacked.
Tomatoes, can you explain what you mean by a 'balanced footballer'?
Also, what do you mean by your statement "ETH wants a formation that cannot work without balance" and are you saying you disagree with the idea that balance is required?
Also, when you say "We should be in a complete overhaul", do you not think that bringing in five new players, while 5-6 members of last year's first team squad leaving (with more outgoings possible) represents quite a strong intention to significantly overhaul the squad?
RR
pressing well is one part of the plan. effective penetrative possession is the other part. It reduces the need for the high press, it makes the point of a high press (which is getting possession at point of the oppositions weakness) worth it.
Yes being able to organise a press is important, if thats what makes Mount so important then Kudos to him. But if we do not have the other part, we will see what we've seen for a while, a gassed out team which cannot sustain it and get tactically confused and the weak midfield, weak set piece pressure, weak break away effectiveness.
There are Toney rumours flying around again now. I'd perhaps try and see if Osimhen fancies OT. You'd have thought he'd have been mentioned during McT talks at least!
If we are looking for another CF that is.
comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 11 minutes ago
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at)
———
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that one is funny. Defensive discipline is something both Shaw and AWB lack as they continually get drawn into the middle when they should not be.
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 43 seconds ago
Your team seems to lack balance, not helped by the contribution of the wide players in particular.
Arsenal don't have a 20 goal a season guy but the front 3 tend to get 15 each, and they play with Odegard floating behind them. Rice Party and now Merino make up strong options for a double pivot behind them.
Other teams use of inverted FBs or players like Stones stepping into CM, giving them more freedom to make slightly more attacking team selections, esp. midfield. City usually only play with Rodri and players like Gundogan are more like Mount, able to press, get forward, get goals and assists, from a CM position where they will also have defensive responsibilities
Not sure if ETH doesnt adopt this kinda system or just that the defensive players lack skills to step into midfield. But for me, when i watch Utd, your system seems quite rigid. FBs generally wide and over lapping. Wide attackers wide and cutting in, Bruno with more freedom. Mainoo and Casemiro pivoting.
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at), adding pace, and allowing one of the other defenders to step into midfield, releasing other midfielders. Bit like Walker does at City.
This sort of step up is the only way i could see Mount playing as any sort of CM role with Bruno and a striker in the team, as part of a high pressing team which has a defender stepping forward and also retains some pace at the back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We obviously have a number of issues, which we are trying to sort out with the various combos that ETH is / will be trying out. But even if that is sorted to a good degree, we just don't score enough goals, it's been a real issue for a good while now.
And last time I checked, goals wins you games
I don't have stats on this, but I wonder how many EPL games in the past 2 years have we scored 3 goals or more in. I am sure way less the other big clubs. All our wins seem to be a grind. You can't win all games at a canter, but we don't seem to do that in any.
Hopefully our defence will become stronger this season, but just as it is important to grind out wins, it's also important to occasionally give teams a good hiding.
We have scored less than 60 goals in the last 3 seasons - that says it all. We talk about all these missed chances - well at then of the day, it's just all talk. Maybe they should just watch RVN for a day.............
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ETH seems to be having the same trouble as Ole, 'transitioning' you from being an effective counter attacking to one that is front foot, high press, possession dominating.
Both had success initially with the counter attacking approach - 2nd and 3rd place. Ole clearly didnt have the players to evolve from there, but it seems a lot of ETHs signings havent really evolved your squad to be much better at it either. Still a distinct lack of pace at the back, still wide players who do not contribute enough goals, lacking mobility in the CM and a box to box CM who will contribute at both ends.
Rashford is great (on his day) on the counter but seems less effective in a more patient possession style vs low blocks. He seems to lack the smarts for this and i am surprised he's been kept tbh. Sancho seems far more suited and not getting the best out of him is on the manager IMO.
If United want to score another 20+ goals, like their contemporaries, then the wide players will need to step up. Not sure if Zirkzee/Rasmus are going to get 20-25, but if you can get 40-50 between all your front line, then that's a massive step forward.
Diafol, I'd long given up on my dream of signing Osimhen, assuming he's way beyond our budget. But his stock has obviously fallen after a mediocre and (another) injury-hit season, and his relationship with Napoli soured after the disgraceful, disrespectful social posts the club published about him, and it now seems he could be available on a loan. If the numbers worked, I'd definitely take him. There are questions about his durability, but he'd be joining quite a stacked squad so wouldn't necessarily have to play huge numbers of minutes. He's also used (to link it to the discussion here) to contributing to a system that presses high at times. And unlike Ivan Toney he has at times reached world-class levels.
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 11 minutes ago
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at)
———
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that one is funny. Defensive discipline is something both Shaw and AWB lack as they continually get drawn into the middle when they should not be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Watching AWB try to hold a defensive line is one of the funniest things in football. He’s so bloody brainless.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
Tomatoes, can you explain what you mean by a 'balanced footballer'?
Also, what do you mean by your statement "ETH wants a formation that cannot work without balance" and are you saying you disagree with the idea that balance is required?
Also, when you say "We should be in a complete overhaul", do you not think that bringing in five new players, while 5-6 members of last year's first team squad leaving (with more outgoings possible) represents quite a strong intention to significantly overhaul the squad?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
RR
The balanced midfielder is someone who is 13/20 at every thing. The ones we call Jack of all trades, just have to be above average at it. That is how I see it. Bruno for example is an amazing player, but hes unbalanced in the funkiest things like execution of his usually creative approach. Many can be pointed out to Casemiro (lack of drive, effective execution issues). Ugarte coming in is being let go by PSG because the passing range is unacceptable for a team at that level but we know why we want him. Mount and Mainoo are the most balanced for me but Mainoo lacks drive and Mount cant seem to do anything with the ball. When they are together, their flaws stand out, not sure why.
Our team needs a better balance. If you take time to watch the likes of Burnley under Kompany and Ipswich now, you notice they all have balanced players enough at the level. if they got better balanced players, they'll probably do better. (ETH would walk the championship, the way he won the eridivisie).
Zirkzee works, Zoro will pan out eventually. Both need to improve but my rant for years was our problem was midfield. We needed 3 midfielders not 3 defenders. Balanced ones too. For example, Sander Berge should have been a more important focus to me. He is a very balanced player, in and out of possession, his stats would make most managers drool.
Watching AWB try to hold a defensive line is one of the funniest things in football. He’s so bloody brainless.
.................
Don't get me started on AWB's inability to find a team mate from a throw in, either.
Having seen Mount over a few years, I think people are too hard on United and the player himself. Mount is a pressing forward, he's not a midfielder. I think ETH signed a player who does what he says on the tin - the manager however, plays a style of football that doesn't require Mount. He's a decent enough player in the right system, like Sancho, like Rashford, like many.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 36 minutes ago
Diafol, I'd long given up on my dream of signing Osimhen, assuming he's way beyond our budget. But his stock has obviously fallen after a mediocre and (another) injury-hit season, and his relationship with Napoli soured after the disgraceful, disrespectful social posts the club published about him, and it now seems he could be available on a loan. If the numbers worked, I'd definitely take him. There are questions about his durability, but he'd be joining quite a stacked squad so wouldn't necessarily have to play huge numbers of minutes. He's also used (to link it to the discussion here) to contributing to a system that presses high at times. And unlike Ivan Toney he has at times reached world-class levels.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I suspect if we do get a CF it'll be Toney and Osimhen going to Chelsea.
I would prefer a versatile forward though to be honest which I'm not sure Toney is. Perhaps Zirkzee has that skillset though?
Or how about just for a bit of common sense for a change.....we play Zirkzee as the 9 or false 9, we put Bruno back in his best position at 10 and put Mount back on the bench?
Not like we've been great is it with Mount in the team. We had to bring on Zirkzee to win the first game and we lost the second one. The false 9 didn't work.
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 14 minutes ago
Or how about just for a bit of common sense for a change.....we play Zirkzee as the 9 or false 9, we put Bruno back in his best position at 10 and put Mount back on the bench?
Not like we've been great is it with Mount in the team. We had to bring on Zirkzee to win the first game and we lost the second one. The false 9 didn't work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We played better in the first halves of both games, and quite comfortably.
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 10 minutes ago
Or how about just for a bit of common sense for a change.....we play Zirkzee as the 9 or false 9, we put Bruno back in his best position at 10 and put Mount back on the bench?
Not like we've been great is it with Mount in the team. We had to bring on Zirkzee to win the first game and we lost the second one. The false 9 didn't work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're suggesting that playing a false 9 *and* a 10 is one of the common sense options?
And I know Zirkzee scored when Mount was off the pitch, but are you really of the opinion that we were more dangerous, creating better chances, etc. when Mount was on the bench? I'll spell it out, since you like to read into comments things that aren't there, that I'm not trying to argue that Mount should be playing. But you need to have a bit of balance and nuance in your arguments. Otherwise, had Bruno buried two very good chances, your very same logic would mean lead to the opposite conclusion.
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 36 minutes ago
Or how about just for a bit of common sense for a change.....we play Zirkzee as the 9 or false 9, we put Bruno back in his best position at 10 and put Mount back on the bench?
Not like we've been great is it with Mount in the team. We had to bring on Zirkzee to win the first game and we lost the second one. The false 9 didn't work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruno is poor at the actual job of pressing. Require patience that has not been known for him. And it works now because the trio of Casemiro, Mainoo and Mount are disciplined enough. (Think we were better with Amrabat btw last year)
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 36 minutes ago
Or how about just for a bit of common sense for a change.....we play Zirkzee as the 9 or false 9, we put Bruno back in his best position at 10 and put Mount back on the bench?
Not like we've been great is it with Mount in the team. We had to bring on Zirkzee to win the first game and we lost the second one. The false 9 didn't work.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruno is poor at the actual job of pressing. Require patience that has not been known for him. And it works now because the trio of Casemiro, Mainoo and Mount are disciplined enough. (Think we were better with Amrabat btw last year)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruno is the second best presser in the side. Beyond Mount, there’s no-one who executes cover shadowing or funnelling better than him.
I don’t know what you’ve seen in Mainoo, but other than responding to triggers, I think he (understandably) has an awful lot to learn about defensive positioning yet.
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Fitting in Mount and a striker
Page 2 of 2
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 11 minutes ago
"Mount is Elite at leading a high press" is like saying a tall defender is good at winning headers. Yes its a good skill, No it is not what we base a team around. When the chips are down, we are going to decide what we need to win, or just look good.
I cannot see Mount the same way you guys talk about him. He should be on the bench for Ugarte tbh and bringing him on as a sub would be a mistake.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems to me that the main discussion on this thread is between people who are saying "Mount's pressing is an asset, but his lack of creativity presents a problem" on one hand, and on the other hand people who pressing as running around a lot and of little substantive value. No one, as far as I can see, is arguing that Mount is the ideal player and first player on the team sheet. But all of the PL teams that are significantly better than us are far more adept than us at pinning teams back and winning the ball high up the pitch. This is about having well drilled pressing strategies (which is ETH's challenge), but also about having players with the physical capabilities and tactical understanding to execute the tactic. It's pretty clear that some of our players don't tick those boxes, some are OK, some are good. We'd love to be in a situation where we have talented, productive footballers who are also excellent pressers, but we don't have that luxury, which is why we have to talk about trade-offs. You appear to be unwilling to discuss these trade-offs, but rather to shrug off the idea that pressing might be an important thing for the team to be good at.
posted on 28/8/24
Hopefully we can sell him to West Ham next summer.
posted on 28/8/24
Your team seems to lack balance, not helped by the contribution of the wide players in particular.
Arsenal don't have a 20 goal a season guy but the front 3 tend to get 15 each, and they play with Odegard floating behind them. Rice Party and now Merino make up strong options for a double pivot behind them.
Other teams use of inverted FBs or players like Stones stepping into CM, giving them more freedom to make slightly more attacking team selections, esp. midfield. City usually only play with Rodri and players like Gundogan are more like Mount, able to press, get forward, get goals and assists, from a CM position where they will also have defensive responsibilities
Not sure if ETH doesnt adopt this kinda system or just that the defensive players lack skills to step into midfield. But for me, when i watch Utd, your system seems quite rigid. FBs generally wide and over lapping. Wide attackers wide and cutting in, Bruno with more freedom. Mainoo and Casemiro pivoting.
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at), adding pace, and allowing one of the other defenders to step into midfield, releasing other midfielders. Bit like Walker does at City.
This sort of step up is the only way i could see Mount playing as any sort of CM role with Bruno and a striker in the team, as part of a high pressing team which has a defender stepping forward and also retains some pace at the back.
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 43 seconds ago
Your team seems to lack balance, not helped by the contribution of the wide players in particular.
Arsenal don't have a 20 goal a season guy but the front 3 tend to get 15 each, and they play with Odegard floating behind them. Rice Party and now Merino make up strong options for a double pivot behind them.
Other teams use of inverted FBs or players like Stones stepping into CM, giving them more freedom to make slightly more attacking team selections, esp. midfield. City usually only play with Rodri and players like Gundogan are more like Mount, able to press, get forward, get goals and assists, from a CM position where they will also have defensive responsibilities
Not sure if ETH doesnt adopt this kinda system or just that the defensive players lack skills to step into midfield. But for me, when i watch Utd, your system seems quite rigid. FBs generally wide and over lapping. Wide attackers wide and cutting in, Bruno with more freedom. Mainoo and Casemiro pivoting.
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at), adding pace, and allowing one of the other defenders to step into midfield, releasing other midfielders. Bit like Walker does at City.
This sort of step up is the only way i could see Mount playing as any sort of CM role with Bruno and a striker in the team, as part of a high pressing team which has a defender stepping forward and also retains some pace at the back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We obviously have a number of issues, which we are trying to sort out with the various combos that ETH is / will be trying out. But even if that is sorted to a good degree, we just don't score enough goals, it's been a real issue for a good while now.
And last time I checked, goals wins you games
I don't have stats on this, but I wonder how many EPL games in the past 2 years have we scored 3 goals or more in. I am sure way less the other big clubs. All our wins seem to be a grind. You can't win all games at a canter, but we don't seem to do that in any.
Hopefully our defence will become stronger this season, but just as it is important to grind out wins, it's also important to occasionally give teams a good hiding.
We have scored less than 60 goals in the last 3 seasons - that says it all. We talk about all these missed chances - well at then of the day, it's just all talk. Maybe they should just watch RVN for a day.............
posted on 28/8/24
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at)
———
posted on 28/8/24
I find myself agreeing with Devonshire. I am adamant on everyone of them leaving because they just lack Balance. ETH wants a formation that cannot work without balance and yet we are here trying to make a team work with players who are not going to improve anytime soon and try and adjust them. We should be in a complete overhaul.
THe most balanced footballer on this team is probably Mainoo and many are here visualizing a team where he is "rested" for Mount, Casemiro and Bruno to team up with Ugarte, literally the most unbalanced players we probably have now (signing Ugarte will make or mar ETH).
We are watching teams and trying to copy them without basics. Lets hope they all round up their play, unless they intend to get ETH sacked.
posted on 28/8/24
Tomatoes, can you explain what you mean by a 'balanced footballer'?
Also, what do you mean by your statement "ETH wants a formation that cannot work without balance" and are you saying you disagree with the idea that balance is required?
Also, when you say "We should be in a complete overhaul", do you not think that bringing in five new players, while 5-6 members of last year's first team squad leaving (with more outgoings possible) represents quite a strong intention to significantly overhaul the squad?
posted on 28/8/24
RR
pressing well is one part of the plan. effective penetrative possession is the other part. It reduces the need for the high press, it makes the point of a high press (which is getting possession at point of the oppositions weakness) worth it.
Yes being able to organise a press is important, if thats what makes Mount so important then Kudos to him. But if we do not have the other part, we will see what we've seen for a while, a gassed out team which cannot sustain it and get tactically confused and the weak midfield, weak set piece pressure, weak break away effectiveness.
posted on 28/8/24
There are Toney rumours flying around again now. I'd perhaps try and see if Osimhen fancies OT. You'd have thought he'd have been mentioned during McT talks at least!
posted on 28/8/24
If we are looking for another CF that is.
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 11 minutes ago
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at)
———
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that one is funny. Defensive discipline is something both Shaw and AWB lack as they continually get drawn into the middle when they should not be.
posted on 28/8/24
comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 43 seconds ago
Your team seems to lack balance, not helped by the contribution of the wide players in particular.
Arsenal don't have a 20 goal a season guy but the front 3 tend to get 15 each, and they play with Odegard floating behind them. Rice Party and now Merino make up strong options for a double pivot behind them.
Other teams use of inverted FBs or players like Stones stepping into CM, giving them more freedom to make slightly more attacking team selections, esp. midfield. City usually only play with Rodri and players like Gundogan are more like Mount, able to press, get forward, get goals and assists, from a CM position where they will also have defensive responsibilities
Not sure if ETH doesnt adopt this kinda system or just that the defensive players lack skills to step into midfield. But for me, when i watch Utd, your system seems quite rigid. FBs generally wide and over lapping. Wide attackers wide and cutting in, Bruno with more freedom. Mainoo and Casemiro pivoting.
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at), adding pace, and allowing one of the other defenders to step into midfield, releasing other midfielders. Bit like Walker does at City.
This sort of step up is the only way i could see Mount playing as any sort of CM role with Bruno and a striker in the team, as part of a high pressing team which has a defender stepping forward and also retains some pace at the back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We obviously have a number of issues, which we are trying to sort out with the various combos that ETH is / will be trying out. But even if that is sorted to a good degree, we just don't score enough goals, it's been a real issue for a good while now.
And last time I checked, goals wins you games
I don't have stats on this, but I wonder how many EPL games in the past 2 years have we scored 3 goals or more in. I am sure way less the other big clubs. All our wins seem to be a grind. You can't win all games at a canter, but we don't seem to do that in any.
Hopefully our defence will become stronger this season, but just as it is important to grind out wins, it's also important to occasionally give teams a good hiding.
We have scored less than 60 goals in the last 3 seasons - that says it all. We talk about all these missed chances - well at then of the day, it's just all talk. Maybe they should just watch RVN for a day.............
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ETH seems to be having the same trouble as Ole, 'transitioning' you from being an effective counter attacking to one that is front foot, high press, possession dominating.
Both had success initially with the counter attacking approach - 2nd and 3rd place. Ole clearly didnt have the players to evolve from there, but it seems a lot of ETHs signings havent really evolved your squad to be much better at it either. Still a distinct lack of pace at the back, still wide players who do not contribute enough goals, lacking mobility in the CM and a box to box CM who will contribute at both ends.
Rashford is great (on his day) on the counter but seems less effective in a more patient possession style vs low blocks. He seems to lack the smarts for this and i am surprised he's been kept tbh. Sancho seems far more suited and not getting the best out of him is on the manager IMO.
If United want to score another 20+ goals, like their contemporaries, then the wide players will need to step up. Not sure if Zirkzee/Rasmus are going to get 20-25, but if you can get 40-50 between all your front line, then that's a massive step forward.
posted on 28/8/24
Diafol, I'd long given up on my dream of signing Osimhen, assuming he's way beyond our budget. But his stock has obviously fallen after a mediocre and (another) injury-hit season, and his relationship with Napoli soured after the disgraceful, disrespectful social posts the club published about him, and it now seems he could be available on a loan. If the numbers worked, I'd definitely take him. There are questions about his durability, but he'd be joining quite a stacked squad so wouldn't necessarily have to play huge numbers of minutes. He's also used (to link it to the discussion here) to contributing to a system that presses high at times. And unlike Ivan Toney he has at times reached world-class levels.
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Joshua The King Of Kings Zirkzee (U10026)
posted 11 minutes ago
I was surprised that AWB wasnt at least tried as a sort of 3rd CB, keeping a defensive discipline (which he is very good at)
———
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that one is funny. Defensive discipline is something both Shaw and AWB lack as they continually get drawn into the middle when they should not be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Watching AWB try to hold a defensive line is one of the funniest things in football. He’s so bloody brainless.
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 minutes ago
Tomatoes, can you explain what you mean by a 'balanced footballer'?
Also, what do you mean by your statement "ETH wants a formation that cannot work without balance" and are you saying you disagree with the idea that balance is required?
Also, when you say "We should be in a complete overhaul", do you not think that bringing in five new players, while 5-6 members of last year's first team squad leaving (with more outgoings possible) represents quite a strong intention to significantly overhaul the squad?
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RR
The balanced midfielder is someone who is 13/20 at every thing. The ones we call Jack of all trades, just have to be above average at it. That is how I see it. Bruno for example is an amazing player, but hes unbalanced in the funkiest things like execution of his usually creative approach. Many can be pointed out to Casemiro (lack of drive, effective execution issues). Ugarte coming in is being let go by PSG because the passing range is unacceptable for a team at that level but we know why we want him. Mount and Mainoo are the most balanced for me but Mainoo lacks drive and Mount cant seem to do anything with the ball. When they are together, their flaws stand out, not sure why.
Our team needs a better balance. If you take time to watch the likes of Burnley under Kompany and Ipswich now, you notice they all have balanced players enough at the level. if they got better balanced players, they'll probably do better. (ETH would walk the championship, the way he won the eridivisie).
Zirkzee works, Zoro will pan out eventually. Both need to improve but my rant for years was our problem was midfield. We needed 3 midfielders not 3 defenders. Balanced ones too. For example, Sander Berge should have been a more important focus to me. He is a very balanced player, in and out of possession, his stats would make most managers drool.
posted on 28/8/24
Watching AWB try to hold a defensive line is one of the funniest things in football. He’s so bloody brainless.
.................
Don't get me started on AWB's inability to find a team mate from a throw in, either.
posted on 28/8/24
Having seen Mount over a few years, I think people are too hard on United and the player himself. Mount is a pressing forward, he's not a midfielder. I think ETH signed a player who does what he says on the tin - the manager however, plays a style of football that doesn't require Mount. He's a decent enough player in the right system, like Sancho, like Rashford, like many.
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 36 minutes ago
Diafol, I'd long given up on my dream of signing Osimhen, assuming he's way beyond our budget. But his stock has obviously fallen after a mediocre and (another) injury-hit season, and his relationship with Napoli soured after the disgraceful, disrespectful social posts the club published about him, and it now seems he could be available on a loan. If the numbers worked, I'd definitely take him. There are questions about his durability, but he'd be joining quite a stacked squad so wouldn't necessarily have to play huge numbers of minutes. He's also used (to link it to the discussion here) to contributing to a system that presses high at times. And unlike Ivan Toney he has at times reached world-class levels.
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I suspect if we do get a CF it'll be Toney and Osimhen going to Chelsea.
I would prefer a versatile forward though to be honest which I'm not sure Toney is. Perhaps Zirkzee has that skillset though?
posted on 28/8/24
Or how about just for a bit of common sense for a change.....we play Zirkzee as the 9 or false 9, we put Bruno back in his best position at 10 and put Mount back on the bench?
Not like we've been great is it with Mount in the team. We had to bring on Zirkzee to win the first game and we lost the second one. The false 9 didn't work.
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 14 minutes ago
Or how about just for a bit of common sense for a change.....we play Zirkzee as the 9 or false 9, we put Bruno back in his best position at 10 and put Mount back on the bench?
Not like we've been great is it with Mount in the team. We had to bring on Zirkzee to win the first game and we lost the second one. The false 9 didn't work.
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We played better in the first halves of both games, and quite comfortably.
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 10 minutes ago
Or how about just for a bit of common sense for a change.....we play Zirkzee as the 9 or false 9, we put Bruno back in his best position at 10 and put Mount back on the bench?
Not like we've been great is it with Mount in the team. We had to bring on Zirkzee to win the first game and we lost the second one. The false 9 didn't work.
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So you're suggesting that playing a false 9 *and* a 10 is one of the common sense options?
And I know Zirkzee scored when Mount was off the pitch, but are you really of the opinion that we were more dangerous, creating better chances, etc. when Mount was on the bench? I'll spell it out, since you like to read into comments things that aren't there, that I'm not trying to argue that Mount should be playing. But you need to have a bit of balance and nuance in your arguments. Otherwise, had Bruno buried two very good chances, your very same logic would mean lead to the opposite conclusion.
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 36 minutes ago
Or how about just for a bit of common sense for a change.....we play Zirkzee as the 9 or false 9, we put Bruno back in his best position at 10 and put Mount back on the bench?
Not like we've been great is it with Mount in the team. We had to bring on Zirkzee to win the first game and we lost the second one. The false 9 didn't work.
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Bruno is poor at the actual job of pressing. Require patience that has not been known for him. And it works now because the trio of Casemiro, Mainoo and Mount are disciplined enough. (Think we were better with Amrabat btw last year)
posted on 28/8/24
comment by Redastomatoes- Feels very Moyesian...cleverson forever!If he is good enough he is ready! (U12026)
posted 20 minutes ago
comment by Tyranny of the majority (SE85) (U21241)
posted 36 minutes ago
Or how about just for a bit of common sense for a change.....we play Zirkzee as the 9 or false 9, we put Bruno back in his best position at 10 and put Mount back on the bench?
Not like we've been great is it with Mount in the team. We had to bring on Zirkzee to win the first game and we lost the second one. The false 9 didn't work.
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Bruno is poor at the actual job of pressing. Require patience that has not been known for him. And it works now because the trio of Casemiro, Mainoo and Mount are disciplined enough. (Think we were better with Amrabat btw last year)
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Bruno is the second best presser in the side. Beyond Mount, there’s no-one who executes cover shadowing or funnelling better than him.
I don’t know what you’ve seen in Mainoo, but other than responding to triggers, I think he (understandably) has an awful lot to learn about defensive positioning yet.
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