Yes, I agree RRR. Ugarte will be the missing piece to knit it all together...
To clarify, the OP isn't a prediction. It's more of a fleeting vision.
#we'regoingtowinthefuсkingleague
#ETHout!
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 3 minutes ago
Yes, I agree RRR. Ugarte will be the missing piece to knit it all together...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree, but happy to be proven wrong.
We desperately need a playmaker in the middle, and good as Bruno is, I feel his positioning contributes toward our lack of control in games.
Our lack of willingness to press and track back is also a big issue. We end up half pressing and exposing the defence/ midfield, and our full backs are horribly exposed when the wingers don’t track back.
It would be good to see some attractive football more often and then the results would surely come. We could do with someone to stick the ball in the net consistently though. Even if it's 3 or 4 scoring 15 odd goals that would be a start.
If Holjund and Zirkzee could take some elements of their game from each other then we could end up with two really good forwards too but that could be asking a lot of them at this stage.
A fortnight ago I was pretty miserable but now feeling a bit more positive about the club. I know that's flip flopping just because of one game but, overall this season when looking at the bigger picture, we are seemingly doing better in all the key metrics.
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 3 minutes ago
Yes, I agree RRR. Ugarte will be the missing piece to knit it all together...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree, but happy to be proven wrong.
We desperately need a playmaker in the middle, and good as Bruno is, I feel his positioning contributes toward our lack of control in games.
Our lack of willingness to press and track back is also a big issue. We end up half pressing and exposing the defence/ midfield, and our full backs are horribly exposed when the wingers don’t track back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was kidding sorry Busby! After RR wrote his piece I thought just a one line statement was just showing some jokey hysteria!
Pfft, we all flip flop after the last game. That is about players of course. Not managers when people bang on about it whatever the result.
I would like to see Zirkzy and Rasmus given a few games together.
And Mount given a chance to impress occasionally.
And it would give Bruno a rest.
I actually think we are on the verge of something great , not good. The youth coming into the team, and starting to pile up behind them.
Yet to be proved but I also think Erik is the man to manage that change.
You've been interesting for years! Its mostly been like a How Not to Run a Football Club documentary.
I think Ugarte will be a lot more important for you than Zirkzee and Amad. After watching Liverpool treat you like training cones its battlers like him you need.
Refuse to get carried away, a lot of what the team did against Southampton was good and encouraging but the ease at which a rookie was causing Dalot issues was alarming but unsurprising given his weakness as a LB. Overlooking LB during the transfer window will hurt us. Once Southampton missed the pen the momentum went in our favour and at times we played some good stuff.
Amad is looking terrific, Marcus was good as were Zirkzee, Mazraoui and Onana but de Ligt had a game to remember. He was a Colossus at times.
I think with the addition of Ugarte our attacking players and midfielders better on the ball will be unleashed, well I hope so.
comment by Vengeance
posted 11 minutes ago
Refuse to get carried away, a lot of what the team did against Southampton was good and encouraging but the ease at which a rookie was causing Dalot issues was alarming but unsurprising given his weakness as a LB. Overlooking LB during the transfer window will hurt us. Once Southampton missed the pen the momentum went in our favour and at times we played some good stuff.
Amad is looking terrific, Marcus was good as were Zirkzee, Mazraoui and Onana but de Ligt had a game to remember. He was a Colossus at times.
I think with the addition of Ugarte our attacking players and midfielders better on the ball will be unleashed, well I hope so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, JZ is a very interesting addition, he could have ended the game with the match ball but the way he finds pockets of space, knits play, gets others involved is good to see. Needs to work on his finishing but once he's match sharp, a little more experienced he'll be some player.
I'm certainly not getting carried away. This wasn't a response to the Southampton result, which I don't see as a turning point. (In fact, I missed the game as I was out on Saturday, so only saw a few highlights.) We're a long way from being a coherent team, and I'm not convinced that Ten Hag's pragmatism will make us an attractive one. All I'm saying is there are some ingredients in the stew that could give it a distinct flavour if the chef gets it right. And it's encouraging that one of the most interesting football writers is paying attention.
Will be 5-10 years before we come anywhere close to the title.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 27 minutes ago
I'm certainly not getting carried away. This wasn't a response to the Southampton result, which I don't see as a turning point. (In fact, I missed the game as I was out on Saturday, so only saw a few highlights.) We're a long way from being a coherent team, and I'm not convinced that Ten Hag's pragmatism will make us an attractive one. All I'm saying is there are some ingredients in the stew that could give it a distinct flavour if the chef gets it right. And it's encouraging that one of the most interesting football writers is paying attention.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
👍
comment by aroon1 (U7949)
posted 8 minutes ago
Will be 5-10 years before we come anywhere close to the title.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
...which has nothing to do with this discussion. 'Interesting' and 'successful' are entirely different things, aren't they?
I did read over the summer that EtH felt the squad lacked players with footballing brains and I do think we’re starting to see a few more of them in the team with those you mention. Add Shaw too who although seems quite thick (physically and mentally) has a good footballing brain.
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 51 minutes ago
I'm certainly not getting carried away. This wasn't a response to the Southampton result, which I don't see as a turning point. (In fact, I missed the game as I was out on Saturday, so only saw a few highlights.) We're a long way from being a coherent team, and I'm not convinced that Ten Hag's pragmatism will make us an attractive one. All I'm saying is there are some ingredients in the stew that could give it a distinct flavour if the chef gets it right. And it's encouraging that one of the most interesting football writers is paying attention.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to say that I'm not at all expecting ETH to get the best out of these players. But I do think that we have made some decent signings.
Rashers seems to be clicking a bit and forming a connection with Xerxes. Fingers crossed.
I have not seen a full match this season yet though, so my opinion is worthless.
Ji
.....Xerxes
----
Who?!
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 11 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 51 minutes ago
I'm certainly not getting carried away. This wasn't a response to the Southampton result, which I don't see as a turning point. (In fact, I missed the game as I was out on Saturday, so only saw a few highlights.) We're a long way from being a coherent team, and I'm not convinced that Ten Hag's pragmatism will make us an attractive one. All I'm saying is there are some ingredients in the stew that could give it a distinct flavour if the chef gets it right. And it's encouraging that one of the most interesting football writers is paying attention.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to say that I'm not at all expecting ETH to get the best out of these players. But I do think that we have made some decent signings.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's where I am at also. Whilst ETH can say that he has now got players in who can implement what he wants, as a coach, last season I expected more from the team, not just results wise in the league, but playing style etc etc. In many ways, we could have finished in the same league position that we did, but looked better on the eye and it was obvious where we were heading, but there was very little of that. The Cup was a great individual day, but not a way to measure where the team was.
I'm not sure I have full trust in ETH to get the best out of these players - I do expect improvement, although that is to be expected, but how much I'm not sure.
But we have a squad of players who should overall be performing better, the nucleus of this squad is still the same as last year, so it will take a big turnaround from ETH for the team to become significantly different style-wise
The prospect of Ten Hag and Ruud teaching this bunch of players the difference between Relationism (which depends on their own intelligence and self awareness) over Positionalism seems a thankless task. I agree with the OP that hopefully recent recruitment has been directed at acquiring players who could be capable of grasping such concepts, which indeed could be quite an interesting experiment pan out, mixing those with the more established members of the squad who seemed to struggle to grasp much of what TH wanted them to do for the past 2 years.
Relationism vs Positionalism. Sounds like a monday morning History of Art lecture. LOL
RBW, I don't suppose managers go into abstract theory when coaching players. It's more a question of what they emphasise in their coaching and the types of drills they do. A positionist will have lots and lots of work on positioning and collective movement, often including drills where they don't use a ball. A relationist coach might do a lot more work getting players exchanges of one-twos at close quarters.
Talking about it in the abstract is very dry, I accept that!
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 12 minutes ago
RBW, I don't suppose managers go into abstract theory when coaching players. It's more a question of what they emphasise in their coaching and the types of drills they do. A positionist will have lots and lots of work on positioning and collective movement, often including drills where they don't use a ball. A relationist coach might do a lot more work getting players exchanges of one-twos at close quarters.
Talking about it in the abstract is very dry, I accept that!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well as you say in the Op its actually quite bold and makes United an interesting work in progress to watch. If nothing else. But hopefully it can also change our fortunes regarding results.
Put the best XI out every game, in a basic 442, 'shape' then United would be not just "interesting" but also more than a match for every other EPL team (bar City, of course, that have just about every position covered twice).
That "best XI" would mean NEVER starting with Rashford, Dalot or Casemiro and I just cannot wait to see that happen.
Thankfully Mc Tominay has gone off to find his lower level, but that's countered by the crass loss of AWB - the latter decision being a ridiculous one under the circumstances.
Hojlund and Zirkzee up front would be the "United way", Mount and Fernandes in central midfield. Get Shaw back full time (fingers crossed on that one). And the season might start to look interesting.
Other than that kind of approach, the inclusion of the three genuinely inadequates (at this level) mentioned above will lead to another polarised season.
United have nothing to fear from their traditional rivals in AFC and LFC, only MCFC and CFC (if they get their act together) are equipped to be top three 'shoe-ins'.
I pointed out last season (and before that) that I just could not watch any match if Lindelof, Mctominay and all Dalot started. It's not so bad now, but I still feel queasy over any line-up with all of Rashford, Dalot and Casemiro in. It will struggle to win and will also struggle not to lose ...
Thanks for your input, IAmMe
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Are we on the verge of being interesting?
Page 1 of 2
posted on 16/9/24
Yes, I agree RRR. Ugarte will be the missing piece to knit it all together...
posted on 16/9/24
To clarify, the OP isn't a prediction. It's more of a fleeting vision.
#we'regoingtowinthefuсkingleague
#ETHout!
posted on 16/9/24
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 3 minutes ago
Yes, I agree RRR. Ugarte will be the missing piece to knit it all together...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree, but happy to be proven wrong.
We desperately need a playmaker in the middle, and good as Bruno is, I feel his positioning contributes toward our lack of control in games.
Our lack of willingness to press and track back is also a big issue. We end up half pressing and exposing the defence/ midfield, and our full backs are horribly exposed when the wingers don’t track back.
posted on 16/9/24
It would be good to see some attractive football more often and then the results would surely come. We could do with someone to stick the ball in the net consistently though. Even if it's 3 or 4 scoring 15 odd goals that would be a start.
If Holjund and Zirkzee could take some elements of their game from each other then we could end up with two really good forwards too but that could be asking a lot of them at this stage.
A fortnight ago I was pretty miserable but now feeling a bit more positive about the club. I know that's flip flopping just because of one game but, overall this season when looking at the bigger picture, we are seemingly doing better in all the key metrics.
posted on 16/9/24
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by Diafol Coch 77 🏴 (U2462)
posted 3 minutes ago
Yes, I agree RRR. Ugarte will be the missing piece to knit it all together...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree, but happy to be proven wrong.
We desperately need a playmaker in the middle, and good as Bruno is, I feel his positioning contributes toward our lack of control in games.
Our lack of willingness to press and track back is also a big issue. We end up half pressing and exposing the defence/ midfield, and our full backs are horribly exposed when the wingers don’t track back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was kidding sorry Busby! After RR wrote his piece I thought just a one line statement was just showing some jokey hysteria!
posted on 16/9/24
Pfft, we all flip flop after the last game. That is about players of course. Not managers when people bang on about it whatever the result.
I would like to see Zirkzy and Rasmus given a few games together.
And Mount given a chance to impress occasionally.
And it would give Bruno a rest.
I actually think we are on the verge of something great , not good. The youth coming into the team, and starting to pile up behind them.
Yet to be proved but I also think Erik is the man to manage that change.
posted on 16/9/24
No
posted on 16/9/24
You've been interesting for years! Its mostly been like a How Not to Run a Football Club documentary.
I think Ugarte will be a lot more important for you than Zirkzee and Amad. After watching Liverpool treat you like training cones its battlers like him you need.
posted on 16/9/24
Refuse to get carried away, a lot of what the team did against Southampton was good and encouraging but the ease at which a rookie was causing Dalot issues was alarming but unsurprising given his weakness as a LB. Overlooking LB during the transfer window will hurt us. Once Southampton missed the pen the momentum went in our favour and at times we played some good stuff.
Amad is looking terrific, Marcus was good as were Zirkzee, Mazraoui and Onana but de Ligt had a game to remember. He was a Colossus at times.
I think with the addition of Ugarte our attacking players and midfielders better on the ball will be unleashed, well I hope so.
posted on 16/9/24
comment by Vengeance
posted 11 minutes ago
Refuse to get carried away, a lot of what the team did against Southampton was good and encouraging but the ease at which a rookie was causing Dalot issues was alarming but unsurprising given his weakness as a LB. Overlooking LB during the transfer window will hurt us. Once Southampton missed the pen the momentum went in our favour and at times we played some good stuff.
Amad is looking terrific, Marcus was good as were Zirkzee, Mazraoui and Onana but de Ligt had a game to remember. He was a Colossus at times.
I think with the addition of Ugarte our attacking players and midfielders better on the ball will be unleashed, well I hope so.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, JZ is a very interesting addition, he could have ended the game with the match ball but the way he finds pockets of space, knits play, gets others involved is good to see. Needs to work on his finishing but once he's match sharp, a little more experienced he'll be some player.
posted on 16/9/24
I'm certainly not getting carried away. This wasn't a response to the Southampton result, which I don't see as a turning point. (In fact, I missed the game as I was out on Saturday, so only saw a few highlights.) We're a long way from being a coherent team, and I'm not convinced that Ten Hag's pragmatism will make us an attractive one. All I'm saying is there are some ingredients in the stew that could give it a distinct flavour if the chef gets it right. And it's encouraging that one of the most interesting football writers is paying attention.
posted on 16/9/24
Will be 5-10 years before we come anywhere close to the title.
posted on 16/9/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 27 minutes ago
I'm certainly not getting carried away. This wasn't a response to the Southampton result, which I don't see as a turning point. (In fact, I missed the game as I was out on Saturday, so only saw a few highlights.) We're a long way from being a coherent team, and I'm not convinced that Ten Hag's pragmatism will make us an attractive one. All I'm saying is there are some ingredients in the stew that could give it a distinct flavour if the chef gets it right. And it's encouraging that one of the most interesting football writers is paying attention.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
👍
posted on 16/9/24
comment by aroon1 (U7949)
posted 8 minutes ago
Will be 5-10 years before we come anywhere close to the title.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
...which has nothing to do with this discussion. 'Interesting' and 'successful' are entirely different things, aren't they?
posted on 16/9/24
I did read over the summer that EtH felt the squad lacked players with footballing brains and I do think we’re starting to see a few more of them in the team with those you mention. Add Shaw too who although seems quite thick (physically and mentally) has a good footballing brain.
posted on 16/9/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 51 minutes ago
I'm certainly not getting carried away. This wasn't a response to the Southampton result, which I don't see as a turning point. (In fact, I missed the game as I was out on Saturday, so only saw a few highlights.) We're a long way from being a coherent team, and I'm not convinced that Ten Hag's pragmatism will make us an attractive one. All I'm saying is there are some ingredients in the stew that could give it a distinct flavour if the chef gets it right. And it's encouraging that one of the most interesting football writers is paying attention.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to say that I'm not at all expecting ETH to get the best out of these players. But I do think that we have made some decent signings.
posted on 17/9/24
Rashers seems to be clicking a bit and forming a connection with Xerxes. Fingers crossed.
I have not seen a full match this season yet though, so my opinion is worthless.
posted on 17/9/24
Ji
.....Xerxes
----
Who?!
posted on 17/9/24
Zirkzee
posted on 17/9/24
comment by Elvis (U7425)
posted 11 hours, 8 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 3 hours, 51 minutes ago
I'm certainly not getting carried away. This wasn't a response to the Southampton result, which I don't see as a turning point. (In fact, I missed the game as I was out on Saturday, so only saw a few highlights.) We're a long way from being a coherent team, and I'm not convinced that Ten Hag's pragmatism will make us an attractive one. All I'm saying is there are some ingredients in the stew that could give it a distinct flavour if the chef gets it right. And it's encouraging that one of the most interesting football writers is paying attention.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to say that I'm not at all expecting ETH to get the best out of these players. But I do think that we have made some decent signings.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's where I am at also. Whilst ETH can say that he has now got players in who can implement what he wants, as a coach, last season I expected more from the team, not just results wise in the league, but playing style etc etc. In many ways, we could have finished in the same league position that we did, but looked better on the eye and it was obvious where we were heading, but there was very little of that. The Cup was a great individual day, but not a way to measure where the team was.
I'm not sure I have full trust in ETH to get the best out of these players - I do expect improvement, although that is to be expected, but how much I'm not sure.
But we have a squad of players who should overall be performing better, the nucleus of this squad is still the same as last year, so it will take a big turnaround from ETH for the team to become significantly different style-wise
posted on 17/9/24
The prospect of Ten Hag and Ruud teaching this bunch of players the difference between Relationism (which depends on their own intelligence and self awareness) over Positionalism seems a thankless task. I agree with the OP that hopefully recent recruitment has been directed at acquiring players who could be capable of grasping such concepts, which indeed could be quite an interesting experiment pan out, mixing those with the more established members of the squad who seemed to struggle to grasp much of what TH wanted them to do for the past 2 years.
Relationism vs Positionalism. Sounds like a monday morning History of Art lecture. LOL
posted on 17/9/24
RBW, I don't suppose managers go into abstract theory when coaching players. It's more a question of what they emphasise in their coaching and the types of drills they do. A positionist will have lots and lots of work on positioning and collective movement, often including drills where they don't use a ball. A relationist coach might do a lot more work getting players exchanges of one-twos at close quarters.
Talking about it in the abstract is very dry, I accept that!
posted on 17/9/24
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 12 minutes ago
RBW, I don't suppose managers go into abstract theory when coaching players. It's more a question of what they emphasise in their coaching and the types of drills they do. A positionist will have lots and lots of work on positioning and collective movement, often including drills where they don't use a ball. A relationist coach might do a lot more work getting players exchanges of one-twos at close quarters.
Talking about it in the abstract is very dry, I accept that!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well as you say in the Op its actually quite bold and makes United an interesting work in progress to watch. If nothing else. But hopefully it can also change our fortunes regarding results.
posted on 17/9/24
Put the best XI out every game, in a basic 442, 'shape' then United would be not just "interesting" but also more than a match for every other EPL team (bar City, of course, that have just about every position covered twice).
That "best XI" would mean NEVER starting with Rashford, Dalot or Casemiro and I just cannot wait to see that happen.
Thankfully Mc Tominay has gone off to find his lower level, but that's countered by the crass loss of AWB - the latter decision being a ridiculous one under the circumstances.
Hojlund and Zirkzee up front would be the "United way", Mount and Fernandes in central midfield. Get Shaw back full time (fingers crossed on that one). And the season might start to look interesting.
Other than that kind of approach, the inclusion of the three genuinely inadequates (at this level) mentioned above will lead to another polarised season.
United have nothing to fear from their traditional rivals in AFC and LFC, only MCFC and CFC (if they get their act together) are equipped to be top three 'shoe-ins'.
I pointed out last season (and before that) that I just could not watch any match if Lindelof, Mctominay and all Dalot started. It's not so bad now, but I still feel queasy over any line-up with all of Rashford, Dalot and Casemiro in. It will struggle to win and will also struggle not to lose ...
posted on 17/9/24
Thanks for your input, IAmMe
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