Dear Ange,
it’s not complicated,
We have the momentum- Angeball is great.
They have the momentum- Angeball is a disaster.
NOW F*CKING FIX IT.
All the best.
AFTP
Morning Sizzle ☕️
I was at that game and all the goals were scored on our side so had a great view of our shambles at the back in the second half as well marvelled at our attack in the first half.
It was the perfect game of two halves. Never saw a jackyl and hide performance to rival it!!
At the end of the game. looked around at other spurs fans and all of us looked gobsmacked!!
Ange was standing still and looked gobsmacked too
We dominate first half and should’ve been out of sight and yet after HT, we couldn’t cope with Brightons tactical change and desire to fight back.
Think the players turned their focus to their planned holidays tbh
comment by He who Dares, waits for Trophies (U15748)
posted 3 minutes ago
Morning Sizzle ☕️
I was at that game and all the goals were scored on our side so had a great view of our shambles at the back in the second half as well marvelled at our attack in the first half.
It was the perfect game of two halves. Never saw a jackyl and hide performance to rival it!!
At the end of the game. looked around at other spurs fans and all of us looked gobsmacked!!
Ange was standing still and looked gobsmacked too
We dominate first half and should’ve been out of sight and yet after HT, we couldn’t cope with Brightons tactical change and desire to fight back.
Think the players turned their focus to their planned holidays tbh
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that the problem is that opponents have worked Ange out, even the 10 year old who manages Brighton.
comment by Kamikaze Blue (U7450)
posted 6 minutes ago
I think that the problem is that opponents have worked Ange out, even the 10 year old who manages Brighton.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Said this months ago.
It's not a case of being worked out. It's a case of the players delivering.
There was nothing really tactical that saw us give up the momentum. You could argue a mistake from Udogie early 2nd half handed it to them and we couldn't cope.
Tactical geniuses like Sizzle demand a plan b but they also moaned like hell when Contes team took the lead and parked the bus.
This is a learning process for this group and they need to develop a stronger mentality when we are under the pump. I have noticed we tend to panic. We did after Leicester equalised. We did in that spell that utd had against us and we did vs BHA. We suddenly lose our heads a bit, go long with the ball, give up possession and repeat. There needs to be the calmness and a bit of steel to wrestle back control, take the sting out of the game. Even just an injury break or a bit of time wasting, but generally more controlled possession tk build up to a position of having control and playing our game. Game management is needed, maturity, leadership. Not a Plan B
That is why I was super disappointed with how we threw it away. Mistakes but then panic. Bentancur, a highly experienced played just letting their player cross it. It's moments like that that make me question the desire of some of our players and their ability to execute.
Saying we are figured out is just lazy simple nonesense.
But we do need to find a away to change momentum in a game . For me a lot of it is mentality and execution in the key moments.
I’m not paid millions of pounds a year to be a tactical genuis.
I just make my observations and post them on here.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 20 minutes ago
It's not a case of being worked out. It's a case of the players delivering.
There was nothing really tactical that saw us give up the momentum. You could argue a mistake from Udogie early 2nd half handed it to them and we couldn't cope.
Tactical geniuses like Sizzle demand a plan b but they also moaned like hell when Contes team took the lead and parked the bus.
This is a learning process for this group and they need to develop a stronger mentality when we are under the pump. I have noticed we tend to panic. We did after Leicester equalised. We did in that spell that utd had against us and we did vs BHA. We suddenly lose our heads a bit, go long with the ball, give up possession and repeat. There needs to be the calmness and a bit of steel to wrestle back control, take the sting out of the game. Even just an injury break or a bit of time wasting, but generally more controlled possession tk build up to a position of having control and playing our game. Game management is needed, maturity, leadership. Not a Plan B
That is why I was super disappointed with how we threw it away. Mistakes but then panic. Bentancur, a highly experienced played just letting their player cross it. It's moments like that that make me question the desire of some of our players and their ability to execute.
Saying we are figured out is just lazy simple nonesense.
But we do need to find a away to change momentum in a game . For me a lot of it is mentality and execution in the key moments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I think it needs to be a combination of developing a better mentality and also having better in game management and tactics when the momentum obviously shifts. I mean you could clearly see in the 2nd half the game was only going one way. Ange could have responded sooner...taken off Udogie, brought players on sooner, got instructions out to players. There were no answers coming from him until it was too late. We were at the 66th minute when their winner went in so still even plenty of time to do things after that. He waited until 10 mins to go to do anything and 5 minutes to go to make an attacking change.
Is no one else even a little concerned on Ange comments about making subs during that game?
Everything he said after and what Madders has said screams out that we needed to tweak things. But Ange says it would have made no difference. He is basically saying he can't change a game due to subs or changes.
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 40 minutes ago
I’m not paid millions of pounds a year to be a tactical genuis.
I just make my observations and post them on here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
plus there is a lot more to tactical changes than just "parking the bus"
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 28 seconds ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 40 minutes ago
I’m not paid millions of pounds a year to be a tactical genuis.
I just make my observations and post them on here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
plus there is a lot more to tactical changes than just "parking the bus"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, let’s try one.
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 20 minutes ago
It's not a case of being worked out. It's a case of the players delivering.
There was nothing really tactical that saw us give up the momentum. You could argue a mistake from Udogie early 2nd half handed it to them and we couldn't cope.
Tactical geniuses like Sizzle demand a plan b but they also moaned like hell when Contes team took the lead and parked the bus.
This is a learning process for this group and they need to develop a stronger mentality when we are under the pump. I have noticed we tend to panic. We did after Leicester equalised. We did in that spell that utd had against us and we did vs BHA. We suddenly lose our heads a bit, go long with the ball, give up possession and repeat. There needs to be the calmness and a bit of steel to wrestle back control, take the sting out of the game. Even just an injury break or a bit of time wasting, but generally more controlled possession tk build up to a position of having control and playing our game. Game management is needed, maturity, leadership. Not a Plan B
That is why I was super disappointed with how we threw it away. Mistakes but then panic. Bentancur, a highly experienced played just letting their player cross it. It's moments like that that make me question the desire of some of our players and their ability to execute.
Saying we are figured out is just lazy simple nonesense.
But we do need to find a away to change momentum in a game . For me a lot of it is mentality and execution in the key moments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I think it needs to be a combination of developing a better mentality and also having better in game management and tactics when the momentum obviously shifts. I mean you could clearly see in the 2nd half the game was only going one way. Ange could have responded sooner...taken off Udogie, brought players on sooner, got instructions out to players. There were no answers coming from him until it was too late. We were at the 66th minute when their winner went in so still even plenty of time to do things after that. He waited until 10 mins to go to do anything and 5 minutes to go to make an attacking change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally i dont think that tactical changes were necessary. Players will know when they are up against it and they need to respond.
Managing a game is about what the players do with the ball. Sometimes it needs a tactical change but in this instance they scored after 48 and then 10 minutes later. I dont think we needed to consider substitutions before the hour. When it went 2-1, that is when the game management should click in, show some nous, be smart.
They were 2-2 within 12 minutes of the restart. I dont think you can blame the manager for failing to respond quick enough. Once at 2-2 i was thinking what do we do to change the momentum and there werent many options that would also retain the level of attacking threat to win the game. Sarr & Biss made us a bit more solid but we then lacked some quality going forward.
At 3-2 we had to get back into the game but the lack of Son and Odobert & Richy really meant we lacked decent attacking threat to get back into the game, so i think we stuck with the lineup which had the most attacking players in as many positions as possible.
For me it highlights that the squad is still light in terms of quality. I dont think changing up a tired Madders for Bergvall really improves us on the pitch at the moment and when Deki is playing CM, and doing it really well, if he goes off or moves wide then we lack his creativity centrally and Sarr/Biss is no replacement for his quality.
If we wanted to shore up the game then Sarr & Biss are a natural choice, but as we were chasing it their addition didnt really work but were about the only real options open to us which didnt involve inexperienced kids.
In the ideal world, to get some legs on the pitch it would have been good to make some changes across the front - say Odobert on for BJ/Son, remove Madders, put Deki at 10 and add someone more solid to the CM. That option wasnt really there for us, so i do think we lacked a few options from teh bench which made it hard to respond and find that balance between being more solid and keeping a decent attacking threat, esp. when losing.
That for me is a squad thing as we couldnt really trust kids in that situation, but also an injury thing which has hit us across the whole front line.
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is, if oppo managers have just worked out Ange tactics and how to counter it, then they would surely just do that from the start no? Why would they wait to go 2-0 down?
You probably have a point in that they then changed tactics at HT, to try and get back into it. But I don’t think Ange has been worked out in the sense that teams can just easily counter it from the start, because why wouldn’t they if they could !!??
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 32 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally agree.
Terms like "worked us out|" and "Plan B" over simplify what needs to happen and often a lot of what needs to happen is for players to react.
If people watch the second half again (which I have, painful as it was) then there is this level of panic. BHA were far more aggressive, moved it quicker, more purposeful They didnt really "figure us out", they just upped their game and "played their game" which is actually very similar in approach to ours - aggressive, front foot, bodies forward, high press. We stopped playing our game and the roles were reversed from the first half.
As mentioned above, this is not the first time that us being pressed sees us lose control of the game and that's what needs figuring out and a lot of that is about decision making on the pitch. And it doesnt matter if we have 11 men behind the ball or 3 on the halfway line, if you make the wrong decision you will get caught out.
Arsenal take a very different approach but if you ignore the deep sitting defensive shape they take at times, they do take the sting out of games but slowing it all down, being calm, buying freekicks, stop and starting play. These are essential smarts IMO that teams need to employ when you want to stop the opponents momentum. It is not always the best idea for Vic to gather the ball and toss it straight out. Sometimes, you just need to hold it and slow it all down, get a foothold back in the game. We failed to do this and in the same way that they played into our hands in the first half and couldnt react, we did the same in teh 2nd half.. For me, this needs to come from leaders on teh pitch - Vic, Romero, Madders, Bents - experienced heads making sure we remain calm, keep things simple for a bit.
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is, if oppo managers have just worked out Ange tactics and how to counter it, then they would surely just do that from the start no? Why would they wait to go 2-0 down?
You probably have a point in that they then changed tactics at HT, to try and get back into it. But I don’t think Ange has been worked out in the sense that teams can just easily counter it from the start, because why wouldn’t they if they could !!??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People talk about Ange's "suicidal" tactics, implying the high line and attacking FB leaves us exposed, and teams have figured this out, but actually that is not where our GA have come from . In the main it's been basic errors - 2 more this weekend from Udogie & Bentancur. 2 very avoidable goals.
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
more likely that Ange's gameplan is very high energy demanding, and when the legs start to go it becomes less and less effective as the game goes on and more spaces and the amount of time to react to things increases and become more exploitable.
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
more likely that Ange's gameplan is very high energy demanding, and when the legs start to go it becomes less and less effective as the game goes on and more spaces and the amount of time to react to things increases and become more exploitable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
another myth!
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
more likely that Ange's gameplan is very high energy demanding, and when the legs start to go it becomes less and less effective as the game goes on and more spaces and the amount of time to react to things increases and become more exploitable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
another myth!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Iv prob watched more of Ange as a manager than you have.
Ange has always been about high intensity, playing with as high a tempo as they can manage. Its common sense that becomes less effective as the game wears on
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
more likely that Ange's gameplan is very high energy demanding, and when the legs start to go it becomes less and less effective as the game goes on and more spaces and the amount of time to react to things increases and become more exploitable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so should he maybe not take that into account?
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
more likely that Ange's gameplan is very high energy demanding, and when the legs start to go it becomes less and less effective as the game goes on and more spaces and the amount of time to react to things increases and become more exploitable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so should he maybe not take that into account?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
100%, I was agreeing with you earlier. He needs to learn to kill a game off when leading and keep control of the game. I was defending you previously as that doesnt mean "park the bus" like others suggested.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 hours ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 20 minutes ago
It's not a case of being worked out. It's a case of the players delivering.
There was nothing really tactical that saw us give up the momentum. You could argue a mistake from Udogie early 2nd half handed it to them and we couldn't cope.
Tactical geniuses like Sizzle demand a plan b but they also moaned like hell when Contes team took the lead and parked the bus.
This is a learning process for this group and they need to develop a stronger mentality when we are under the pump. I have noticed we tend to panic. We did after Leicester equalised. We did in that spell that utd had against us and we did vs BHA. We suddenly lose our heads a bit, go long with the ball, give up possession and repeat. There needs to be the calmness and a bit of steel to wrestle back control, take the sting out of the game. Even just an injury break or a bit of time wasting, but generally more controlled possession tk build up to a position of having control and playing our game. Game management is needed, maturity, leadership. Not a Plan B
That is why I was super disappointed with how we threw it away. Mistakes but then panic. Bentancur, a highly experienced played just letting their player cross it. It's moments like that that make me question the desire of some of our players and their ability to execute.
Saying we are figured out is just lazy simple nonesense.
But we do need to find a away to change momentum in a game . For me a lot of it is mentality and execution in the key moments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I think it needs to be a combination of developing a better mentality and also having better in game management and tactics when the momentum obviously shifts. I mean you could clearly see in the 2nd half the game was only going one way. Ange could have responded sooner...taken off Udogie, brought players on sooner, got instructions out to players. There were no answers coming from him until it was too late. We were at the 66th minute when their winner went in so still even plenty of time to do things after that. He waited until 10 mins to go to do anything and 5 minutes to go to make an attacking change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally i dont think that tactical changes were necessary. Players will know when they are up against it and they need to respond.
Managing a game is about what the players do with the ball. Sometimes it needs a tactical change but in this instance they scored after 48 and then 10 minutes later. I dont think we needed to consider substitutions before the hour. When it went 2-1, that is when the game management should click in, show some nous, be smart.
They were 2-2 within 12 minutes of the restart. I dont think you can blame the manager for failing to respond quick enough. Once at 2-2 i was thinking what do we do to change the momentum and there werent many options that would also retain the level of attacking threat to win the game. Sarr & Biss made us a bit more solid but we then lacked some quality going forward.
At 3-2 we had to get back into the game but the lack of Son and Odobert & Richy really meant we lacked decent attacking threat to get back into the game, so i think we stuck with the lineup which had the most attacking players in as many positions as possible.
For me it highlights that the squad is still light in terms of quality. I dont think changing up a tired Madders for Bergvall really improves us on the pitch at the moment and when Deki is playing CM, and doing it really well, if he goes off or moves wide then we lack his creativity centrally and Sarr/Biss is no replacement for his quality.
If we wanted to shore up the game then Sarr & Biss are a natural choice, but as we were chasing it their addition didnt really work but were about the only real options open to us which didnt involve inexperienced kids.
In the ideal world, to get some legs on the pitch it would have been good to make some changes across the front - say Odobert on for BJ/Son, remove Madders, put Deki at 10 and add someone more solid to the CM. That option wasnt really there for us, so i do think we lacked a few options from teh bench which made it hard to respond and find that balance between being more solid and keeping a decent attacking threat, esp. when losing.
That for me is a squad thing as we couldnt really trust kids in that situation, but also an injury thing which has hit us across the whole front line.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree it all happened very quickly but there was still enough time to read the situation to implement changes sooner. If the players weren't mentally ready in the second half for Brighton coming at them as they did, can you question whether Ange should have done more to make them ready? It's as if everyone wasn't aware that Brighton might be able to come back into this. Maybe he had a half time team talk that addressed this and the players took no notice.
Ultimately, the responsibility at least partly falls on to him to drill this mentality into these players. It's why he was brought in, to help change the mentality of the team going forward and we're now in the second season, still losing too many games.
Sign in if you want to comment
Madders Gave The Game Away.
Page 1 of 2
posted on 8/10/24
Dear Ange,
it’s not complicated,
We have the momentum- Angeball is great.
They have the momentum- Angeball is a disaster.
NOW F*CKING FIX IT.
All the best.
AFTP
posted on 8/10/24
Morning Sizzle ☕️
I was at that game and all the goals were scored on our side so had a great view of our shambles at the back in the second half as well marvelled at our attack in the first half.
It was the perfect game of two halves. Never saw a jackyl and hide performance to rival it!!
At the end of the game. looked around at other spurs fans and all of us looked gobsmacked!!
Ange was standing still and looked gobsmacked too
We dominate first half and should’ve been out of sight and yet after HT, we couldn’t cope with Brightons tactical change and desire to fight back.
Think the players turned their focus to their planned holidays tbh
posted on 8/10/24
comment by He who Dares, waits for Trophies (U15748)
posted 3 minutes ago
Morning Sizzle ☕️
I was at that game and all the goals were scored on our side so had a great view of our shambles at the back in the second half as well marvelled at our attack in the first half.
It was the perfect game of two halves. Never saw a jackyl and hide performance to rival it!!
At the end of the game. looked around at other spurs fans and all of us looked gobsmacked!!
Ange was standing still and looked gobsmacked too
We dominate first half and should’ve been out of sight and yet after HT, we couldn’t cope with Brightons tactical change and desire to fight back.
Think the players turned their focus to their planned holidays tbh
----------------------------------------------------------------------
posted on 8/10/24
I think that the problem is that opponents have worked Ange out, even the 10 year old who manages Brighton.
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Kamikaze Blue (U7450)
posted 6 minutes ago
I think that the problem is that opponents have worked Ange out, even the 10 year old who manages Brighton.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Said this months ago.
posted on 8/10/24
It's not a case of being worked out. It's a case of the players delivering.
There was nothing really tactical that saw us give up the momentum. You could argue a mistake from Udogie early 2nd half handed it to them and we couldn't cope.
Tactical geniuses like Sizzle demand a plan b but they also moaned like hell when Contes team took the lead and parked the bus.
This is a learning process for this group and they need to develop a stronger mentality when we are under the pump. I have noticed we tend to panic. We did after Leicester equalised. We did in that spell that utd had against us and we did vs BHA. We suddenly lose our heads a bit, go long with the ball, give up possession and repeat. There needs to be the calmness and a bit of steel to wrestle back control, take the sting out of the game. Even just an injury break or a bit of time wasting, but generally more controlled possession tk build up to a position of having control and playing our game. Game management is needed, maturity, leadership. Not a Plan B
That is why I was super disappointed with how we threw it away. Mistakes but then panic. Bentancur, a highly experienced played just letting their player cross it. It's moments like that that make me question the desire of some of our players and their ability to execute.
Saying we are figured out is just lazy simple nonesense.
But we do need to find a away to change momentum in a game . For me a lot of it is mentality and execution in the key moments.
posted on 8/10/24
I’m not paid millions of pounds a year to be a tactical genuis.
I just make my observations and post them on here.
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 20 minutes ago
It's not a case of being worked out. It's a case of the players delivering.
There was nothing really tactical that saw us give up the momentum. You could argue a mistake from Udogie early 2nd half handed it to them and we couldn't cope.
Tactical geniuses like Sizzle demand a plan b but they also moaned like hell when Contes team took the lead and parked the bus.
This is a learning process for this group and they need to develop a stronger mentality when we are under the pump. I have noticed we tend to panic. We did after Leicester equalised. We did in that spell that utd had against us and we did vs BHA. We suddenly lose our heads a bit, go long with the ball, give up possession and repeat. There needs to be the calmness and a bit of steel to wrestle back control, take the sting out of the game. Even just an injury break or a bit of time wasting, but generally more controlled possession tk build up to a position of having control and playing our game. Game management is needed, maturity, leadership. Not a Plan B
That is why I was super disappointed with how we threw it away. Mistakes but then panic. Bentancur, a highly experienced played just letting their player cross it. It's moments like that that make me question the desire of some of our players and their ability to execute.
Saying we are figured out is just lazy simple nonesense.
But we do need to find a away to change momentum in a game . For me a lot of it is mentality and execution in the key moments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I think it needs to be a combination of developing a better mentality and also having better in game management and tactics when the momentum obviously shifts. I mean you could clearly see in the 2nd half the game was only going one way. Ange could have responded sooner...taken off Udogie, brought players on sooner, got instructions out to players. There were no answers coming from him until it was too late. We were at the 66th minute when their winner went in so still even plenty of time to do things after that. He waited until 10 mins to go to do anything and 5 minutes to go to make an attacking change.
posted on 8/10/24
Spurtle
posted on 8/10/24
Is no one else even a little concerned on Ange comments about making subs during that game?
Everything he said after and what Madders has said screams out that we needed to tweak things. But Ange says it would have made no difference. He is basically saying he can't change a game due to subs or changes.
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 40 minutes ago
I’m not paid millions of pounds a year to be a tactical genuis.
I just make my observations and post them on here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
plus there is a lot more to tactical changes than just "parking the bus"
posted on 8/10/24
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 28 seconds ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 40 minutes ago
I’m not paid millions of pounds a year to be a tactical genuis.
I just make my observations and post them on here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
plus there is a lot more to tactical changes than just "parking the bus"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, let’s try one.
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 20 minutes ago
It's not a case of being worked out. It's a case of the players delivering.
There was nothing really tactical that saw us give up the momentum. You could argue a mistake from Udogie early 2nd half handed it to them and we couldn't cope.
Tactical geniuses like Sizzle demand a plan b but they also moaned like hell when Contes team took the lead and parked the bus.
This is a learning process for this group and they need to develop a stronger mentality when we are under the pump. I have noticed we tend to panic. We did after Leicester equalised. We did in that spell that utd had against us and we did vs BHA. We suddenly lose our heads a bit, go long with the ball, give up possession and repeat. There needs to be the calmness and a bit of steel to wrestle back control, take the sting out of the game. Even just an injury break or a bit of time wasting, but generally more controlled possession tk build up to a position of having control and playing our game. Game management is needed, maturity, leadership. Not a Plan B
That is why I was super disappointed with how we threw it away. Mistakes but then panic. Bentancur, a highly experienced played just letting their player cross it. It's moments like that that make me question the desire of some of our players and their ability to execute.
Saying we are figured out is just lazy simple nonesense.
But we do need to find a away to change momentum in a game . For me a lot of it is mentality and execution in the key moments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I think it needs to be a combination of developing a better mentality and also having better in game management and tactics when the momentum obviously shifts. I mean you could clearly see in the 2nd half the game was only going one way. Ange could have responded sooner...taken off Udogie, brought players on sooner, got instructions out to players. There were no answers coming from him until it was too late. We were at the 66th minute when their winner went in so still even plenty of time to do things after that. He waited until 10 mins to go to do anything and 5 minutes to go to make an attacking change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally i dont think that tactical changes were necessary. Players will know when they are up against it and they need to respond.
Managing a game is about what the players do with the ball. Sometimes it needs a tactical change but in this instance they scored after 48 and then 10 minutes later. I dont think we needed to consider substitutions before the hour. When it went 2-1, that is when the game management should click in, show some nous, be smart.
They were 2-2 within 12 minutes of the restart. I dont think you can blame the manager for failing to respond quick enough. Once at 2-2 i was thinking what do we do to change the momentum and there werent many options that would also retain the level of attacking threat to win the game. Sarr & Biss made us a bit more solid but we then lacked some quality going forward.
At 3-2 we had to get back into the game but the lack of Son and Odobert & Richy really meant we lacked decent attacking threat to get back into the game, so i think we stuck with the lineup which had the most attacking players in as many positions as possible.
For me it highlights that the squad is still light in terms of quality. I dont think changing up a tired Madders for Bergvall really improves us on the pitch at the moment and when Deki is playing CM, and doing it really well, if he goes off or moves wide then we lack his creativity centrally and Sarr/Biss is no replacement for his quality.
If we wanted to shore up the game then Sarr & Biss are a natural choice, but as we were chasing it their addition didnt really work but were about the only real options open to us which didnt involve inexperienced kids.
In the ideal world, to get some legs on the pitch it would have been good to make some changes across the front - say Odobert on for BJ/Son, remove Madders, put Deki at 10 and add someone more solid to the CM. That option wasnt really there for us, so i do think we lacked a few options from teh bench which made it hard to respond and find that balance between being more solid and keeping a decent attacking threat, esp. when losing.
That for me is a squad thing as we couldnt really trust kids in that situation, but also an injury thing which has hit us across the whole front line.
posted on 8/10/24
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is, if oppo managers have just worked out Ange tactics and how to counter it, then they would surely just do that from the start no? Why would they wait to go 2-0 down?
You probably have a point in that they then changed tactics at HT, to try and get back into it. But I don’t think Ange has been worked out in the sense that teams can just easily counter it from the start, because why wouldn’t they if they could !!??
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 32 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Totally agree.
Terms like "worked us out|" and "Plan B" over simplify what needs to happen and often a lot of what needs to happen is for players to react.
If people watch the second half again (which I have, painful as it was) then there is this level of panic. BHA were far more aggressive, moved it quicker, more purposeful They didnt really "figure us out", they just upped their game and "played their game" which is actually very similar in approach to ours - aggressive, front foot, bodies forward, high press. We stopped playing our game and the roles were reversed from the first half.
As mentioned above, this is not the first time that us being pressed sees us lose control of the game and that's what needs figuring out and a lot of that is about decision making on the pitch. And it doesnt matter if we have 11 men behind the ball or 3 on the halfway line, if you make the wrong decision you will get caught out.
Arsenal take a very different approach but if you ignore the deep sitting defensive shape they take at times, they do take the sting out of games but slowing it all down, being calm, buying freekicks, stop and starting play. These are essential smarts IMO that teams need to employ when you want to stop the opponents momentum. It is not always the best idea for Vic to gather the ball and toss it straight out. Sometimes, you just need to hold it and slow it all down, get a foothold back in the game. We failed to do this and in the same way that they played into our hands in the first half and couldnt react, we did the same in teh 2nd half.. For me, this needs to come from leaders on teh pitch - Vic, Romero, Madders, Bents - experienced heads making sure we remain calm, keep things simple for a bit.
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 31 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is, if oppo managers have just worked out Ange tactics and how to counter it, then they would surely just do that from the start no? Why would they wait to go 2-0 down?
You probably have a point in that they then changed tactics at HT, to try and get back into it. But I don’t think Ange has been worked out in the sense that teams can just easily counter it from the start, because why wouldn’t they if they could !!??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
People talk about Ange's "suicidal" tactics, implying the high line and attacking FB leaves us exposed, and teams have figured this out, but actually that is not where our GA have come from . In the main it's been basic errors - 2 more this weekend from Udogie & Bentancur. 2 very avoidable goals.
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
more likely that Ange's gameplan is very high energy demanding, and when the legs start to go it becomes less and less effective as the game goes on and more spaces and the amount of time to react to things increases and become more exploitable.
posted on 8/10/24
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
more likely that Ange's gameplan is very high energy demanding, and when the legs start to go it becomes less and less effective as the game goes on and more spaces and the amount of time to react to things increases and become more exploitable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
another myth!
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
more likely that Ange's gameplan is very high energy demanding, and when the legs start to go it becomes less and less effective as the game goes on and more spaces and the amount of time to react to things increases and become more exploitable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
another myth!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Iv prob watched more of Ange as a manager than you have.
posted on 8/10/24
Ange has always been about high intensity, playing with as high a tempo as they can manage. Its common sense that becomes less effective as the game wears on
posted on 8/10/24
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
more likely that Ange's gameplan is very high energy demanding, and when the legs start to go it becomes less and less effective as the game goes on and more spaces and the amount of time to react to things increases and become more exploitable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so should he maybe not take that into account?
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 13 seconds ago
comment by whodunnit (U22710)
posted 28 minutes ago
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Sir Tottenham of Hotspur (U17379)
posted 4 minutes ago
If it was simply a case of us “being worked out” then why did we go 2-0 up in the first place? Why did we go 3-0 up at united? Obviously theirs is large parts of Angeball that does work and it leads to us totally dominating and going ahead.
But it’s the momentum shifts that are the issue, we panic and we lose control of the game.
That’s not being worked out, that’s just players not being mentally at it and not savvy enough to see the game through
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well sure looked like they worked us out by the second half to me.
But you have your own take clearly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
more likely that Ange's gameplan is very high energy demanding, and when the legs start to go it becomes less and less effective as the game goes on and more spaces and the amount of time to react to things increases and become more exploitable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so should he maybe not take that into account?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
100%, I was agreeing with you earlier. He needs to learn to kill a game off when leading and keep control of the game. I was defending you previously as that doesnt mean "park the bus" like others suggested.
posted on 8/10/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 hours ago
comment by Spurtle (U1608)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 20 minutes ago
It's not a case of being worked out. It's a case of the players delivering.
There was nothing really tactical that saw us give up the momentum. You could argue a mistake from Udogie early 2nd half handed it to them and we couldn't cope.
Tactical geniuses like Sizzle demand a plan b but they also moaned like hell when Contes team took the lead and parked the bus.
This is a learning process for this group and they need to develop a stronger mentality when we are under the pump. I have noticed we tend to panic. We did after Leicester equalised. We did in that spell that utd had against us and we did vs BHA. We suddenly lose our heads a bit, go long with the ball, give up possession and repeat. There needs to be the calmness and a bit of steel to wrestle back control, take the sting out of the game. Even just an injury break or a bit of time wasting, but generally more controlled possession tk build up to a position of having control and playing our game. Game management is needed, maturity, leadership. Not a Plan B
That is why I was super disappointed with how we threw it away. Mistakes but then panic. Bentancur, a highly experienced played just letting their player cross it. It's moments like that that make me question the desire of some of our players and their ability to execute.
Saying we are figured out is just lazy simple nonesense.
But we do need to find a away to change momentum in a game . For me a lot of it is mentality and execution in the key moments.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I think it needs to be a combination of developing a better mentality and also having better in game management and tactics when the momentum obviously shifts. I mean you could clearly see in the 2nd half the game was only going one way. Ange could have responded sooner...taken off Udogie, brought players on sooner, got instructions out to players. There were no answers coming from him until it was too late. We were at the 66th minute when their winner went in so still even plenty of time to do things after that. He waited until 10 mins to go to do anything and 5 minutes to go to make an attacking change.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally i dont think that tactical changes were necessary. Players will know when they are up against it and they need to respond.
Managing a game is about what the players do with the ball. Sometimes it needs a tactical change but in this instance they scored after 48 and then 10 minutes later. I dont think we needed to consider substitutions before the hour. When it went 2-1, that is when the game management should click in, show some nous, be smart.
They were 2-2 within 12 minutes of the restart. I dont think you can blame the manager for failing to respond quick enough. Once at 2-2 i was thinking what do we do to change the momentum and there werent many options that would also retain the level of attacking threat to win the game. Sarr & Biss made us a bit more solid but we then lacked some quality going forward.
At 3-2 we had to get back into the game but the lack of Son and Odobert & Richy really meant we lacked decent attacking threat to get back into the game, so i think we stuck with the lineup which had the most attacking players in as many positions as possible.
For me it highlights that the squad is still light in terms of quality. I dont think changing up a tired Madders for Bergvall really improves us on the pitch at the moment and when Deki is playing CM, and doing it really well, if he goes off or moves wide then we lack his creativity centrally and Sarr/Biss is no replacement for his quality.
If we wanted to shore up the game then Sarr & Biss are a natural choice, but as we were chasing it their addition didnt really work but were about the only real options open to us which didnt involve inexperienced kids.
In the ideal world, to get some legs on the pitch it would have been good to make some changes across the front - say Odobert on for BJ/Son, remove Madders, put Deki at 10 and add someone more solid to the CM. That option wasnt really there for us, so i do think we lacked a few options from teh bench which made it hard to respond and find that balance between being more solid and keeping a decent attacking threat, esp. when losing.
That for me is a squad thing as we couldnt really trust kids in that situation, but also an injury thing which has hit us across the whole front line.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree it all happened very quickly but there was still enough time to read the situation to implement changes sooner. If the players weren't mentally ready in the second half for Brighton coming at them as they did, can you question whether Ange should have done more to make them ready? It's as if everyone wasn't aware that Brighton might be able to come back into this. Maybe he had a half time team talk that addressed this and the players took no notice.
Ultimately, the responsibility at least partly falls on to him to drill this mentality into these players. It's why he was brought in, to help change the mentality of the team going forward and we're now in the second season, still losing too many games.
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