The problem at the heart of the club?
Yes, his name is Daniel Levy.
NEXT.
Levy is all too happy to finish 4th-6th. Ideally 4th.
The prize money difference is not massive so is he happy to take the hit and not winning a cup or aiming for 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Lacks ambition 100%
Prem prize money last season.
1st Manchester City £176.2m
2nd Arsenal £172.2m
3rd Liverpool £168.3m
4th Aston Villa £164.3m
5th Tottenham £162.9m
6th Chelsea £149.7m
7th Newcastle £148.3m
8th Manchester United £151.9m
Good article Fridge. I often wonder that myself. No matter how bad some of the so called top clubs get, they always seem to add a trophy or two. Man United being a prime example.
I just think there is not a winners culture at the club anymore. When I first started supporting the club, if Spurs even made a semi final you could more or less guarantee they would win the trophy. They won six FA Cup finals from six appearances between 1961 and
1981. I really haven't a clue where the losers mentality came from.
Nice article Fridge. Food for thought and certainly no simple answer.
As much as simple folk want to point the finger at one man, you also have to reflect on the fact that since our UEFA Cup win in 1984 - 40 years - we have won FA Cup once and League Cup twice.
Whatever it is that has seen us under perform and under deliver certainly runs deeper than the current owners.
My own view is that a winning mentality and a complete rejection of any defeat being acceptable is something that has to be built. Look at the way United did it under Fergie, you need that sort of character to turn a club around and achieve great things and dominance. Prime Jose at Chelsea, Wenger at Arsenal, these are characters that are head and shoulders above the rest. Pep is also the same. One of the absolute greats who has also had the benefit of financial superiority to dominate. Klopp is a similar level but his ability to spend at a time when City were able to spend freely is what separated them from City.
SO for me, these great teams combine everything perfectly - Financial muscle and spending power, quality players off the back of well managed transfer dealings, visionary inspirational leaders who are able to maintain their standards.
Spurs have never managed to combine all the necessary ingredients, partially through poor decision making but also through natural limitations of a club of our size & status.
Once a team makes that claim for dominance, they then become a different entity. To use a horrible term, their Brand becomes highly recognisable and they can trade off it. Chelsea are a classic example of a club who have been able to continue to attract countless expensive buys despite being in an absolute mess at times. Rightly or wrong, there is an expectation that they will come good again, largely based on the fact they have been very successful in the last decade or so, and with that expectation they can point at the trophies and demand the highest of standards.
In a similar way, Spurs brand has some connotations that may well hold us back. As we continue to wait for a trophy, that wait has almost become what we are known for. Not winning stuff. No one puts this label on Villa or NUFC despite success droughts much worse than ours, but that is because we have come close and fallen short. We need to break that relationship.
For us to make any progress we need a cup. We need to get that monkey off our back and I think doing this will lift a weight off us that perhaps subconsciously is holding us back.
Its hard to create an attitude of "we cannot accept defeat" when the only thing in our trophy room is an elephant.
Win something and make that the new expectation and build from there.
For me we seem to now have many of these ingredients in place. Still question marks on the coach and the players, are they truly good enough but only time will tell.
comment by JimmyGreaves (U21183)
posted 10 minutes ago
Levy is all too happy to finish 4th-6th. Ideally 4th.
The prize money difference is not massive so is he happy to take the hit and not winning a cup or aiming for 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Lacks ambition 100%
Prem prize money last season.
1st Manchester City £176.2m
2nd Arsenal £172.2m
3rd Liverpool £168.3m
4th Aston Villa £164.3m
5th Tottenham £162.9m
6th Chelsea £149.7m
7th Newcastle £148.3m
8th Manchester United £151.9m
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's just not as simple as that. There's a reason why Man City's revenues are now £170m more than our highest ever and that's success.
To think that it isn't worth winning the PL because prize money is just £15m more is very simplistic. In fact in a league where there is only a few million between each league position, success is the big difference maker! and the difference between Spurs being worth £3.5bn and Man City worth +£5bn.
This is the last 5 years transfer spending:
Chelsea: £1.8 billion
Manchester United: £945 million
Arsenal: £911 million
Manchester City: £860 million
Tottenham: £857 million
Liverpool: £560 million
Chelsea aside, we are spending as much or more than the wealthiest PL clubs.
We are 6th in terms of wages
Levy fired Mourinho before a cup final so he can save a few bob.Sums him up.
We clearly need a shake up then...... as either it's Levy being a tight ars e or we simply don't sign the right players/management/coaches with the right charachtor and hunger.....
It could be argued it's all these things. Getting the balance right is the trick and the hardest part.
comment by JimmyGreaves (U21183)
posted 19 minutes ago
We clearly need a shake up then...... as either it's Levy being a tight ars e or we simply don't sign the right players/management/coaches with the right charachtor and hunger.....
It could be argued it's all these things. Getting the balance right is the trick and the hardest part.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
New DoF, new coach, new coaching team, new chief of football all within the last 15 months....bit of a fundamental shake up, no?
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 2 hours, 34 minutes ago
The problem at the heart of the club?
Yes, his name is Daniel Levy.
NEXT.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This 100%
The likes of Varpool and Penited are dragged back up by benefit of doubt officiating, they always get a leg up when they need one.
Just look at last season`s FA Cup semi final when a more than dodgy VAR call robbed Coventry, and the result was a bog average United went on to fluke a FA Cup win.
Then you have Varpool being let off with clear red cards in tight games against Chelsea, which swung games in their favour etc.
You won`t see Spurs enjoying the same kind of leg ups in big games.
Another decent thread ruined by bitter billy.
Don't know why you guys put up with him
Why do the kids who come top of the class always come top of the class? This trend isn't observable in football alone.
Billy's boring but he's right. It's on Levy. You can get dragged into the details but at the end of the day, he's responsible for the good (new stadium, 'top 6' tag) and the bad (no trophies) equally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
New DoF, new coach, new coaching team, new chief of football all within the last 15 months....bit of a fundamental shake up, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed we have and we should now stick with it and give it time. I guess we are all a bit impatient and want success now … we have been starved of it for a long while.
I still question Levy’s motives and desire from a purely football view not his business side.
comment by ●Billy The Spur● LEVY OUT- ENIC OUT! (U3924)
posted 1 hour, 29 minutes ago
The likes of Varpool and Penited are dragged back up by benefit of doubt officiating, they always get a leg up when they need one.
Just look at last season`s FA Cup semi final when a more than dodgy VAR call robbed Coventry, and the result was a bog average United went on to fluke a FA Cup win.
Then you have Varpool being let off with clear red cards in tight games against Chelsea, which swung games in their favour etc.
You won`t see Spurs enjoying the same kind of leg ups in big games.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Or not
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13239414/gary-oneil-claims-premier-league-officials-have-subconscious-bias-after-jones-stones-winner-is-it-true
It’s a strange one with Spurs you really should have bagged at least a few cups along the way.
Were pretty crap under ETH but still won two cups at our worst, Liverpool when average have done the same picking up trophies.
I suppose it’s what Spursy is and about.
Were pretty crap under ETH but still won two cups at our worst
---
While there's obviously a very different mentality at United if you've got the reputation and money to sign the likes of Varane and Casemiro you're going to win stuff occasionally even if the football is sheit.
Liverpool is a much better example of a team being run properly and focusing on football success rather than profit
It's why so many of us wanted a marquee signing in the summer. Of course it's nice and everything, but you need that winner's mentality in the dressing room. Even if the chairman is happy with top 4. We got Werner as the experienced head.. sigh
Who was our last truly stand out marquee signing ? One that made everyone stand up and go can’t believe they got him and be a success
Rafa ?
It should have been ndombele ….everyone wanted him
Looking forward to the day when Werner lifts a trophy with his next club.
As much as I might bash Levy, that wasn’t really the point I was making with the original article. I think it’s deeper than that. As Dev says, we haven’t really been a dominant force since the 60s bar a minor flirt in the early 80s so this is about club culture rather than any individual. It can be changed but only with a period of sustained success. One cup won’t do it. It’ll be a start but it won’t change much. The only way to change trends is to buck them. We’d need to start picking up 1, then 2, 3, 4 trophies to start making a difference. The main problem getting there is the wind is against us. It’s about faith. How much of what Ange is trying to instil in the club (not just the players) is being undone by ‘spursy’ prejudices peddled by the media. It’s about total faith. As fans, we all have doubts he can do it because no one else has managed it in the modern era. If there’s any doubt within the club itself, we’re screwed.
Different issues over that time though init. It's not useful to talk about one thing like a 'mentality' or 'ambition' or some even vaguer hoodoo over 50 years, multiple owners etc.
In reality we were great, then for a long time didn't have the money to compete at the top level. Then we had the United era of dominance, then City getting the money just as we were edging top 4.
Only useful thing to do IMO is assess what's gone wrong in recent years that might be relevant to what we can do differently in the future
comment by Bãleș left boot (U22081)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
Different issues over that time though init. It's not useful to talk about one thing like a 'mentality' or 'ambition' or some even vaguer hoodoo over 50 years, multiple owners etc.
In reality we were great, then for a long time didn't have the money to compete at the top level. Then we had the United era of dominance, then City getting the money just as we were edging top 4.
Only useful thing to do IMO is assess what's gone wrong in recent years that might be relevant to what we can do differently in the future
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I take your point but I do think there’s a reason our best teams and our worst teams tend to hover in similar positions and I think club culture is what drives that. Players won’t even know they’re not giving it everything. It’s a sort of unconscious ceiling the entire club sets itself. There are obvious factors that can come into play like money, great academy and top coaching that can breach that ceiling but generally speaking, the toughest opponent we’re going to face in our quest for success is ourselves.
Fair enough, I definitely agree it's a cultural issue
comment by Bãleș left boot (U22081)
posted 15 hours, 25 minutes ago
Billy's boring but he's right. It's on Levy. You can get dragged into the details but at the end of the day, he's responsible for the good (new stadium, 'top 6' tag) and the bad (no trophies) equally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was he correct with his pathetically predictable "jibe" about varpool and penited?
Sign in if you want to comment
Expectation and club culture
Page 1 of 2
posted on 24/10/24
The problem at the heart of the club?
Yes, his name is Daniel Levy.
NEXT.
posted on 24/10/24
Levy is all too happy to finish 4th-6th. Ideally 4th.
The prize money difference is not massive so is he happy to take the hit and not winning a cup or aiming for 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Lacks ambition 100%
Prem prize money last season.
1st Manchester City £176.2m
2nd Arsenal £172.2m
3rd Liverpool £168.3m
4th Aston Villa £164.3m
5th Tottenham £162.9m
6th Chelsea £149.7m
7th Newcastle £148.3m
8th Manchester United £151.9m
posted on 24/10/24
Good article Fridge. I often wonder that myself. No matter how bad some of the so called top clubs get, they always seem to add a trophy or two. Man United being a prime example.
I just think there is not a winners culture at the club anymore. When I first started supporting the club, if Spurs even made a semi final you could more or less guarantee they would win the trophy. They won six FA Cup finals from six appearances between 1961 and
1981. I really haven't a clue where the losers mentality came from.
posted on 24/10/24
Nice article Fridge. Food for thought and certainly no simple answer.
As much as simple folk want to point the finger at one man, you also have to reflect on the fact that since our UEFA Cup win in 1984 - 40 years - we have won FA Cup once and League Cup twice.
Whatever it is that has seen us under perform and under deliver certainly runs deeper than the current owners.
My own view is that a winning mentality and a complete rejection of any defeat being acceptable is something that has to be built. Look at the way United did it under Fergie, you need that sort of character to turn a club around and achieve great things and dominance. Prime Jose at Chelsea, Wenger at Arsenal, these are characters that are head and shoulders above the rest. Pep is also the same. One of the absolute greats who has also had the benefit of financial superiority to dominate. Klopp is a similar level but his ability to spend at a time when City were able to spend freely is what separated them from City.
SO for me, these great teams combine everything perfectly - Financial muscle and spending power, quality players off the back of well managed transfer dealings, visionary inspirational leaders who are able to maintain their standards.
Spurs have never managed to combine all the necessary ingredients, partially through poor decision making but also through natural limitations of a club of our size & status.
Once a team makes that claim for dominance, they then become a different entity. To use a horrible term, their Brand becomes highly recognisable and they can trade off it. Chelsea are a classic example of a club who have been able to continue to attract countless expensive buys despite being in an absolute mess at times. Rightly or wrong, there is an expectation that they will come good again, largely based on the fact they have been very successful in the last decade or so, and with that expectation they can point at the trophies and demand the highest of standards.
In a similar way, Spurs brand has some connotations that may well hold us back. As we continue to wait for a trophy, that wait has almost become what we are known for. Not winning stuff. No one puts this label on Villa or NUFC despite success droughts much worse than ours, but that is because we have come close and fallen short. We need to break that relationship.
For us to make any progress we need a cup. We need to get that monkey off our back and I think doing this will lift a weight off us that perhaps subconsciously is holding us back.
Its hard to create an attitude of "we cannot accept defeat" when the only thing in our trophy room is an elephant.
Win something and make that the new expectation and build from there.
For me we seem to now have many of these ingredients in place. Still question marks on the coach and the players, are they truly good enough but only time will tell.
posted on 24/10/24
comment by JimmyGreaves (U21183)
posted 10 minutes ago
Levy is all too happy to finish 4th-6th. Ideally 4th.
The prize money difference is not massive so is he happy to take the hit and not winning a cup or aiming for 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Lacks ambition 100%
Prem prize money last season.
1st Manchester City £176.2m
2nd Arsenal £172.2m
3rd Liverpool £168.3m
4th Aston Villa £164.3m
5th Tottenham £162.9m
6th Chelsea £149.7m
7th Newcastle £148.3m
8th Manchester United £151.9m
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's just not as simple as that. There's a reason why Man City's revenues are now £170m more than our highest ever and that's success.
To think that it isn't worth winning the PL because prize money is just £15m more is very simplistic. In fact in a league where there is only a few million between each league position, success is the big difference maker! and the difference between Spurs being worth £3.5bn and Man City worth +£5bn.
This is the last 5 years transfer spending:
Chelsea: £1.8 billion
Manchester United: £945 million
Arsenal: £911 million
Manchester City: £860 million
Tottenham: £857 million
Liverpool: £560 million
Chelsea aside, we are spending as much or more than the wealthiest PL clubs.
We are 6th in terms of wages
posted on 24/10/24
Levy fired Mourinho before a cup final so he can save a few bob.Sums him up.
posted on 24/10/24
We clearly need a shake up then...... as either it's Levy being a tight ars e or we simply don't sign the right players/management/coaches with the right charachtor and hunger.....
It could be argued it's all these things. Getting the balance right is the trick and the hardest part.
posted on 24/10/24
comment by JimmyGreaves (U21183)
posted 19 minutes ago
We clearly need a shake up then...... as either it's Levy being a tight ars e or we simply don't sign the right players/management/coaches with the right charachtor and hunger.....
It could be argued it's all these things. Getting the balance right is the trick and the hardest part.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
New DoF, new coach, new coaching team, new chief of football all within the last 15 months....bit of a fundamental shake up, no?
posted on 24/10/24
comment by Automatic For The People (U21889)
posted 2 hours, 34 minutes ago
The problem at the heart of the club?
Yes, his name is Daniel Levy.
NEXT.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This 100%
posted on 24/10/24
The likes of Varpool and Penited are dragged back up by benefit of doubt officiating, they always get a leg up when they need one.
Just look at last season`s FA Cup semi final when a more than dodgy VAR call robbed Coventry, and the result was a bog average United went on to fluke a FA Cup win.
Then you have Varpool being let off with clear red cards in tight games against Chelsea, which swung games in their favour etc.
You won`t see Spurs enjoying the same kind of leg ups in big games.
posted on 24/10/24
Another decent thread ruined by bitter billy.
Don't know why you guys put up with him
posted on 24/10/24
Why do the kids who come top of the class always come top of the class? This trend isn't observable in football alone.
posted on 24/10/24
Billy's boring but he's right. It's on Levy. You can get dragged into the details but at the end of the day, he's responsible for the good (new stadium, 'top 6' tag) and the bad (no trophies) equally.
posted on 24/10/24
----------------------------------------------------------------------
New DoF, new coach, new coaching team, new chief of football all within the last 15 months....bit of a fundamental shake up, no?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed we have and we should now stick with it and give it time. I guess we are all a bit impatient and want success now … we have been starved of it for a long while.
I still question Levy’s motives and desire from a purely football view not his business side.
posted on 24/10/24
comment by ●Billy The Spur● LEVY OUT- ENIC OUT! (U3924)
posted 1 hour, 29 minutes ago
The likes of Varpool and Penited are dragged back up by benefit of doubt officiating, they always get a leg up when they need one.
Just look at last season`s FA Cup semi final when a more than dodgy VAR call robbed Coventry, and the result was a bog average United went on to fluke a FA Cup win.
Then you have Varpool being let off with clear red cards in tight games against Chelsea, which swung games in their favour etc.
You won`t see Spurs enjoying the same kind of leg ups in big games.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Or not
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13239414/gary-oneil-claims-premier-league-officials-have-subconscious-bias-after-jones-stones-winner-is-it-true
posted on 24/10/24
It’s a strange one with Spurs you really should have bagged at least a few cups along the way.
Were pretty crap under ETH but still won two cups at our worst, Liverpool when average have done the same picking up trophies.
I suppose it’s what Spursy is and about.
posted on 24/10/24
Were pretty crap under ETH but still won two cups at our worst
---
While there's obviously a very different mentality at United if you've got the reputation and money to sign the likes of Varane and Casemiro you're going to win stuff occasionally even if the football is sheit.
Liverpool is a much better example of a team being run properly and focusing on football success rather than profit
posted on 24/10/24
It's why so many of us wanted a marquee signing in the summer. Of course it's nice and everything, but you need that winner's mentality in the dressing room. Even if the chairman is happy with top 4. We got Werner as the experienced head.. sigh
posted on 24/10/24
Who was our last truly stand out marquee signing ? One that made everyone stand up and go can’t believe they got him and be a success
Rafa ?
It should have been ndombele ….everyone wanted him
posted on 24/10/24
Looking forward to the day when Werner lifts a trophy with his next club.
posted on 24/10/24
As much as I might bash Levy, that wasn’t really the point I was making with the original article. I think it’s deeper than that. As Dev says, we haven’t really been a dominant force since the 60s bar a minor flirt in the early 80s so this is about club culture rather than any individual. It can be changed but only with a period of sustained success. One cup won’t do it. It’ll be a start but it won’t change much. The only way to change trends is to buck them. We’d need to start picking up 1, then 2, 3, 4 trophies to start making a difference. The main problem getting there is the wind is against us. It’s about faith. How much of what Ange is trying to instil in the club (not just the players) is being undone by ‘spursy’ prejudices peddled by the media. It’s about total faith. As fans, we all have doubts he can do it because no one else has managed it in the modern era. If there’s any doubt within the club itself, we’re screwed.
posted on 24/10/24
Different issues over that time though init. It's not useful to talk about one thing like a 'mentality' or 'ambition' or some even vaguer hoodoo over 50 years, multiple owners etc.
In reality we were great, then for a long time didn't have the money to compete at the top level. Then we had the United era of dominance, then City getting the money just as we were edging top 4.
Only useful thing to do IMO is assess what's gone wrong in recent years that might be relevant to what we can do differently in the future
posted on 25/10/24
comment by Bãleș left boot (U22081)
posted 3 hours, 46 minutes ago
Different issues over that time though init. It's not useful to talk about one thing like a 'mentality' or 'ambition' or some even vaguer hoodoo over 50 years, multiple owners etc.
In reality we were great, then for a long time didn't have the money to compete at the top level. Then we had the United era of dominance, then City getting the money just as we were edging top 4.
Only useful thing to do IMO is assess what's gone wrong in recent years that might be relevant to what we can do differently in the future
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I take your point but I do think there’s a reason our best teams and our worst teams tend to hover in similar positions and I think club culture is what drives that. Players won’t even know they’re not giving it everything. It’s a sort of unconscious ceiling the entire club sets itself. There are obvious factors that can come into play like money, great academy and top coaching that can breach that ceiling but generally speaking, the toughest opponent we’re going to face in our quest for success is ourselves.
posted on 25/10/24
Fair enough, I definitely agree it's a cultural issue
posted on 25/10/24
comment by Bãleș left boot (U22081)
posted 15 hours, 25 minutes ago
Billy's boring but he's right. It's on Levy. You can get dragged into the details but at the end of the day, he's responsible for the good (new stadium, 'top 6' tag) and the bad (no trophies) equally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Was he correct with his pathetically predictable "jibe" about varpool and penited?
Page 1 of 2