I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
Ive watched Villa like 3 times this season now and theyve been quite poor every time. Vs Arsenal, Utd and now Spurs. You watch them turn up next Saturday though!
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 2 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe, but I never, or very rarely see a Spurs head to the ball first.
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 49 minutes ago
Ive watched Villa like 3 times this season now and theyve been quite poor every time. Vs Arsenal, Utd and now Spurs. You watch them turn up next Saturday though!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Massive CL hangovers for them - suspect it will be the same next weekend.
Emery has an insane Euro record, he won’t rotate and I fancy Villa might even go as far as the semis, but their league form will suffer.
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 52 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’re just so short as a team - Solanke and Dragusin were our aerial capability full stop yesterday.
We can’t risk Davies or Dragusin at Galatasaray - Ipswich is the far bigger game as we’re as good as through in Europe already.
That IPswich game looks massive given the other fixtures next week, imagine if we go above title chasing Arsenal 11 games into the season
Got to sort out this away form though - it’s still very poor
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Drag was out jumped by Onana for the chance that led to the corner they scored from.
We’re just not a tall team and VDV is poor aerially despite his height.
Loads to be positive about and I’m buzzing, but I do t think we’ve cured ourselves aerially just yet.
Right now though, the biggest change needed is our mentality away from home - we need some resolve
In such a close game between 2 very well matched sides, I don't think one can be critical of cagey, difficult first half against a team who set up as they did, to make it very hard to break them down. What's important is how we then adjusted to overcome that....and we did that with real style and quality play, on and off the ball.
Overall i think it was an excellent game. A bit like the games vs NUFC and Arsenal where we dominated defensive sides but this time we actually stepped it up and found a way to make the break through.
Thought the team selection was bang on, with the power and running in CM. and the tweaks at half time were a game changer. Good use of subs, although Son seemed a bit too early but understand why, and also reassuring that despite having Davies & Radu at CB for a good 40 minutes, there was little drama in front of goal and once we took the lead we never looked like losing it.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the difference between the eye test and stats. If you applied only the stats then you'd say there's nothing to be concerned about regarding set pieces based on a lack of goals conceded but that doesn't take into account shaky moments and wasteful opposition. Vic doesn't command his box at all. You know you can drop the ball in the 6 yard box and bundle the ball in because he won't take charge and calmly make the ball his.
To not see the problem is frankly delusional. Vicario is a liability in the air. He won't be the first or the last but it's a definite problem.
Lampard was bang on by the way. You can see the panic from him a mile off. He's erratic so imagine what that does to his defence. He's too emotional. We made a huge error not getting Raya in, as good a shot stopper as Vicario is. You see, that's the problem with data. It doesn't tell you the full story. In Italy the game is different so how can you judge a players suitability when the ball isn't in the air as much.
On your other point, you never put your taller players front post. Normally that's reserved for your slightly shorter full backs. You need height for man-marking. Dom is too vital in and around the areas the opposition are likely put their strongest headers of the ball.
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Drag was out jumped by Onana for the chance that led to the corner they scored from.
We’re just not a tall team and VDV is poor aerially despite his height.
Loads to be positive about and I’m buzzing, but I do t think we’ve cured ourselves aerially just yet.
Right now though, the biggest change needed is our mentality away from home - we need some resolve
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Onana had a run on the defender for that cross and Drag did enough to make it as hard as possible for him. Not an issue IMO, you are never going to win every header.
But as said above, I do think that corners in particular need looking at a different setup in terms of who stands where. Often our bigger guys are bypassed, not enough height front post and not enough protection of the GK.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Drag was out jumped by Onana for the chance that led to the corner they scored from.
We’re just not a tall team and VDV is poor aerially despite his height.
Loads to be positive about and I’m buzzing, but I do t think we’ve cured ourselves aerially just yet.
Right now though, the biggest change needed is our mentality away from home - we need some resolve
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Onana had a run on the defender for that cross and Drag did enough to make it as hard as possible for him. Not an issue IMO, you are never going to win every header.
But as said above, I do think that corners in particular need looking at a different setup in terms of who stands where. Often our bigger guys are bypassed, not enough height front post and not enough protection of the GK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah agreed, you can’t win every header and Dragusin is our best player aerially.
But like our away form, we need to accept we have a problem and keep working on it.
Great that the home ground is looking like a fortress again though - must beat Ipswich
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the difference between the eye test and stats. If you applied only the stats then you'd say there's nothing to be concerned about regarding set pieces based on a lack of goals conceded but that doesn't take into account shaky moments and wasteful opposition. Vic doesn't command his box at all. You know you can drop the ball in the 6 yard box and bundle the ball in because he won't take charge and calmly make the ball his.
To not see the problem is frankly delusional. Vicario is a liability in the air. He won't be the first or the last but it's a definite problem.
Lampard was bang on by the way. You can see the panic from him a mile off. He's erratic so imagine what that does to his defence. He's too emotional. We made a huge error not getting Raya in, as good a shot stopper as Vicario is. You see, that's the problem with data. It doesn't tell you the full story. In Italy the game is different so how can you judge a players suitability when the ball isn't in the air as much.
On your other point, you never put your taller players front post. Normally that's reserved for your slightly shorter full backs. You need height for man-marking. Dom is too vital in and around the areas the opposition are likely put their strongest headers of the ball.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kane was always front post. Always, and he was aggressive with it too. We lack this.
With Vicario, yes he doesnt command his box but he is being targeted. If you watch their goal, there is no way he can do anything more than what he did when he is being blocked by a big unit of a CM. That is where he needs help from team mates. If you watch Arsenal vs City, they blocked off Ederson on 2 occassions and should have scored twice, but managed one. In the modern game and in the last 12-18 months, this ploy has really come to the fore. It is increasingly difficult to command the box as a keeper and even less so when someone like Vic has a perceived weakness which is being targeted. fact is we defended the box very well vs Villa, Vic punched one cross clear and came 10 yards to claim another.
In that game where Bournemouth beat Arsenal, Raya flapped at 2 crosses, largely under little challenge, spilled a cross on the ground and recklessly gave away a penalty.
You talk about the eye test - if you watch all keepers, most of them are fallible to mistakes, to being bullied, and there are very few who actually command their 6 yard box. Commanding a box is about more than just the keepers ability to come for a ball, it is a defensive unit thing. Arsenal have the strongest CB pairing and they help Raya in this regard. 6ft 3" Havertz near post, + Ben White. It's a very solid set up. We lack this but its not just on Vicario
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 5 seconds ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Drag was out jumped by Onana for the chance that led to the corner they scored from.
We’re just not a tall team and VDV is poor aerially despite his height.
Loads to be positive about and I’m buzzing, but I do t think we’ve cured ourselves aerially just yet.
Right now though, the biggest change needed is our mentality away from home - we need some resolve
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Onana had a run on the defender for that cross and Drag did enough to make it as hard as possible for him. Not an issue IMO, you are never going to win every header.
But as said above, I do think that corners in particular need looking at a different setup in terms of who stands where. Often our bigger guys are bypassed, not enough height front post and not enough protection of the GK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah agreed, you can’t win every header and Dragusin is our best player aerially.
But like our away form, we need to accept we have a problem and keep working on it.
Great that the home ground is looking like a fortress again though - must beat Ipswich
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are definitely working on it and improving.
We also need to improve our output from attacking set pieces/corners. 6 corners for us and we never really threatened and certainly not the quality of delivery that Villa were putting in or we see from the likes of Arsenal.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Drag was out jumped by Onana for the chance that led to the corner they scored from.
We’re just not a tall team and VDV is poor aerially despite his height.
Loads to be positive about and I’m buzzing, but I do t think we’ve cured ourselves aerially just yet.
Right now though, the biggest change needed is our mentality away from home - we need some resolve
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Onana had a run on the defender for that cross and Drag did enough to make it as hard as possible for him. Not an issue IMO, you are never going to win every header.
But as said above, I do think that corners in particular need looking at a different setup in terms of who stands where. Often our bigger guys are bypassed, not enough height front post and not enough protection of the GK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not the issue. Onana's chance can happen to any team on any given day and the ball was dropped outside of the six yard box. It was just a very good header. You could argue Sonny doesn't do enough to stop the cross coming in in the first place, or at least make it hurried. Like I said though, it was a good passage of play and credit to Villa for that.
The subsequent corner though is where I take issue. Vicario is spending most of his time dancing around Rogers before the ball is dropped INSIDE the six yard box. Vic makes a decent save from the deflection but the very fact that the ball drops inside the six yard box first makes him culpable. Any keeper will say the six yard box is his area. Anything outside that is the responsibility of the others. He has to stop getting distracted by the dancing around him and focus on the ball. If, when he's coming out, he's obstructed, that's a free kick. The issue is that if he doesn't see space, he doesn't come at all. Frankly I don't care if he has to take out half his team. That's his area and he needs to be more commanding.
If you can't see the defensive issue at corners then we'll keep making the same mistakes.
BTW I was not saying we dont have an issue, just that it's not the massive issue some are making out, not the Achilles heel of a team who have the 4th best defensive record in the league
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the difference between the eye test and stats. If you applied only the stats then you'd say there's nothing to be concerned about regarding set pieces based on a lack of goals conceded but that doesn't take into account shaky moments and wasteful opposition. Vic doesn't command his box at all. You know you can drop the ball in the 6 yard box and bundle the ball in because he won't take charge and calmly make the ball his.
To not see the problem is frankly delusional. Vicario is a liability in the air. He won't be the first or the last but it's a definite problem.
Lampard was bang on by the way. You can see the panic from him a mile off. He's erratic so imagine what that does to his defence. He's too emotional. We made a huge error not getting Raya in, as good a shot stopper as Vicario is. You see, that's the problem with data. It doesn't tell you the full story. In Italy the game is different so how can you judge a players suitability when the ball isn't in the air as much.
On your other point, you never put your taller players front post. Normally that's reserved for your slightly shorter full backs. You need height for man-marking. Dom is too vital in and around the areas the opposition are likely put their strongest headers of the ball.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kane was always front post. Always, and he was aggressive with it too. We lack this.
With Vicario, yes he doesnt command his box but he is being targeted. If you watch their goal, there is no way he can do anything more than what he did when he is being blocked by a big unit of a CM. That is where he needs help from team mates. If you watch Arsenal vs City, they blocked off Ederson on 2 occassions and should have scored twice, but managed one. In the modern game and in the last 12-18 months, this ploy has really come to the fore. It is increasingly difficult to command the box as a keeper and even less so when someone like Vic has a perceived weakness which is being targeted. fact is we defended the box very well vs Villa, Vic punched one cross clear and came 10 yards to claim another.
In that game where Bournemouth beat Arsenal, Raya flapped at 2 crosses, largely under little challenge, spilled a cross on the ground and recklessly gave away a penalty.
You talk about the eye test - if you watch all keepers, most of them are fallible to mistakes, to being bullied, and there are very few who actually command their 6 yard box. Commanding a box is about more than just the keepers ability to come for a ball, it is a defensive unit thing. Arsenal have the strongest CB pairing and they help Raya in this regard. 6ft 3" Havertz near post, + Ben White. It's a very solid set up. We lack this but its not just on Vicario
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know the guy but I'm almost certain the reason why we're not seeing our own players being in that buffer position to protect Vic is because he doesn't want it. Some keepers see it as a further distraction and extra legs in the way of leaping for the ball. The problem with that is that if you don't want the protection, it's then your responsibility to take the ball, which he's not doing.
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not the issue. Onana's chance can happen to any team on any given day and the ball was dropped outside of the six yard box. It was just a very good header. You could argue Sonny doesn't do enough to stop the cross coming in in the first place, or at least make it hurried. Like I said though, it was a good passage of play and credit to Villa for that.
The subsequent corner though is where I take issue. Vicario is spending most of his time dancing around Rogers before the ball is dropped INSIDE the six yard box. Vic makes a decent save from the deflection but the very fact that the ball drops inside the six yard box first makes him culpable. Any keeper will say the six yard box is his area. Anything outside that is the responsibility of the others. He has to stop getting distracted by the dancing around him and focus on the ball. If, when he's coming out, he's obstructed, that's a free kick. The issue is that if he doesn't see space, he doesn't come at all. Frankly I don't care if he has to take out half his team. That's his area and he needs to be more commanding.
If you can't see the defensive issue at corners then we'll keep making the same mistakes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Watch the Villa corner. Its Porro who flicks it on 3 or 4 yards ahead of the front post. That aint GK territory.
It quickly deflects off Bents and Vic makes a superb reaction save.
In this instance I do not see how Vic could have done anything different. You could argue that had the initial flick gone near post, then he was badly positioned to stop it because he was untangling himself from Rogers, but he's not chosing to tangle himself with Rogers, that's the ploy of the attacking side. Saw it when Stones scored that late goal @ Wolves, Sarr being bumped around by Silva until the last second.
In both cases, i feel its the defenders that need to be helping the keeper. The attackers are being left to manhandle the keeper all they want. For me, someone needs to be detailed to protect the keeper.
The mantra that anything in the 6 yard box is the keepers just does not ring true anymore.
For me, i'd want Bentacur at the front post. I'd have Udogie protecting the keeper from who ever is trying to block him. I'd also have Porro back post.
We were actually a bit unlucky in that the flick was from Porro, as if it was Torres, then Rogers was offside.
I don't know the guy but I'm almost certain the reason why we're not seeing our own players being in that buffer position to protect Vic is because he doesn't want it. Some keepers see it as a further distraction and extra legs in the way of leaping for the ball. The problem with that is that if you don't want the protection,
-------------
I agree with that. Another body is just another player to get passed, but he's a wiry frame so really isnt going to win too many physical battles with a lump like Rogers, or Antonio.
I think he has tried it both ways. Maddison has been one to jostle with whoever is in the keepers face, but he's even more of a weakling. Just needs some help from someone with a bit of power themselves, that's who i'd have Udogie more in there rather then back post.
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 49 minutes ago
Ive watched Villa like 3 times this season now and theyve been quite poor every time. Vs Arsenal, Utd and now Spurs. You watch them turn up next Saturday though!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Massive CL hangovers for them - suspect it will be the same next weekend.
Emery has an insane Euro record, he won’t rotate and I fancy Villa might even go as far as the semis, but their league form will suffer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot really fancy Villa to go much further than the group stages. First decent side will knock them out. They are a very limited outfit.
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the difference between the eye test and stats. If you applied only the stats then you'd say there's nothing to be concerned about regarding set pieces based on a lack of goals conceded but that doesn't take into account shaky moments and wasteful opposition. Vic doesn't command his box at all. You know you can drop the ball in the 6 yard box and bundle the ball in because he won't take charge and calmly make the ball his.
To not see the problem is frankly delusional. Vicario is a liability in the air. He won't be the first or the last but it's a definite problem.
Lampard was bang on by the way. You can see the panic from him a mile off. He's erratic so imagine what that does to his defence. He's too emotional. We made a huge error not getting Raya in, as good a shot stopper as Vicario is. You see, that's the problem with data. It doesn't tell you the full story. In Italy the game is different so how can you judge a players suitability when the ball isn't in the air as much.
On your other point, you never put your taller players front post. Normally that's reserved for your slightly shorter full backs. You need height for man-marking. Dom is too vital in and around the areas the opposition are likely put their strongest headers of the ball.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree, Spurs may have only conceeded twice from set piece corners this season, but every corner that comes in looks like an Exocet Missile. Very rarely get defended properly, and Vic doesn`t help with his constant flapping.
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 42 minutes ago
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 49 minutes ago
Ive watched Villa like 3 times this season now and theyve been quite poor every time. Vs Arsenal, Utd and now Spurs. You watch them turn up next Saturday though!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Massive CL hangovers for them - suspect it will be the same next weekend.
Emery has an insane Euro record, he won’t rotate and I fancy Villa might even go as far as the semis, but their league form will suffer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot really fancy Villa to go much further than the group stages. First decent side will knock them out. They are a very limited outfit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They’ve beaten Bayern already and top the CL group. They will finish in the top 8 of that in my opinion and skip the first knockout, going straight into the last 16. They will then be seeded for that last 16 tie with the second leg at home - I can see them getting through that.
Worst case scenario for them I think is the Quarters - they would be a favourable draw away from the semis at that point.
Villa are better than the result yesterday suggests. Maybe they won't make top 4 this season but they'll be there or thereabouts I reckon. We hammered them last season and they still finished above us.
If anything the 2 results show how good we ourselves can/should be.
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 hour, 39 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not the issue. Onana's chance can happen to any team on any given day and the ball was dropped outside of the six yard box. It was just a very good header. You could argue Sonny doesn't do enough to stop the cross coming in in the first place, or at least make it hurried. Like I said though, it was a good passage of play and credit to Villa for that.
The subsequent corner though is where I take issue. Vicario is spending most of his time dancing around Rogers before the ball is dropped INSIDE the six yard box. Vic makes a decent save from the deflection but the very fact that the ball drops inside the six yard box first makes him culpable. Any keeper will say the six yard box is his area. Anything outside that is the responsibility of the others. He has to stop getting distracted by the dancing around him and focus on the ball. If, when he's coming out, he's obstructed, that's a free kick. The issue is that if he doesn't see space, he doesn't come at all. Frankly I don't care if he has to take out half his team. That's his area and he needs to be more commanding.
If you can't see the defensive issue at corners then we'll keep making the same mistakes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Watch the Villa corner. Its Porro who flicks it on 3 or 4 yards ahead of the front post. That aint GK territory.
It quickly deflects off Bents and Vic makes a superb reaction save.
In this instance I do not see how Vic could have done anything different. You could argue that had the initial flick gone near post, then he was badly positioned to stop it because he was untangling himself from Rogers, but he's not chosing to tangle himself with Rogers, that's the ploy of the attacking side. Saw it when Stones scored that late goal @ Wolves, Sarr being bumped around by Silva until the last second.
In both cases, i feel its the defenders that need to be helping the keeper. The attackers are being left to manhandle the keeper all they want. For me, someone needs to be detailed to protect the keeper.
The mantra that anything in the 6 yard box is the keepers just does not ring true anymore.
For me, i'd want Bentacur at the front post. I'd have Udogie protecting the keeper from who ever is trying to block him. I'd also have Porro back post.
We were actually a bit unlucky in that the flick was from Porro, as if it was Torres, then Rogers was offside.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I take your point on this. On second viewing, although it dropped in the six yard box, it probably wasn't Vic's territory. That said, I've definitely seen commanding keepers just smash through a bunch of players to punch those.
It's a combination of errors. We're not a big team and even those that are certainly aren't great with their heads. If we have those issues that makes it even more important to have a commanding keeper to deal with that shortfall. As it stands we have the worst of both worlds. A keeper weak in the air and a defence allergic to taking charge high balls.
What would be good to know is how many of the set piece goals we've conceded come in directly to the centre of the six yard box and how many require flick ons. I know I've seen plenty, like Everton last year, where the ball was dropped right in Vic's territory and he flapped at it under pressure and they scored. If we're missing the first man flick on's then you're right, that needs looking at.
It just annoys me that we keep seeing the same mistakes and the problem begins to multiply because every team than tries the same thing. The only reason we haven't conceded more yet is because teams seem to have forgotten our weaknesses, until now.
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 42 minutes ago
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 49 minutes ago
Ive watched Villa like 3 times this season now and theyve been quite poor every time. Vs Arsenal, Utd and now Spurs. You watch them turn up next Saturday though!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Massive CL hangovers for them - suspect it will be the same next weekend.
Emery has an insane Euro record, he won’t rotate and I fancy Villa might even go as far as the semis, but their league form will suffer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot really fancy Villa to go much further than the group stages. First decent side will knock them out. They are a very limited outfit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They’ve beaten Bayern already and top the CL group. They will finish in the top 8 of that in my opinion and skip the first knockout, going straight into the last 16. They will then be seeded for that last 16 tie with the second leg at home - I can see them getting through that.
Worst case scenario for them I think is the Quarters - they would be a favourable draw away from the semis at that point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We want them to stay in. The longer they've got CL distractions the more they'll drop in the league.
Sign in if you want to comment
Decent win in the end yesterday
Page 1 of 2
posted on 4/11/24
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
posted on 4/11/24
Ive watched Villa like 3 times this season now and theyve been quite poor every time. Vs Arsenal, Utd and now Spurs. You watch them turn up next Saturday though!
posted on 4/11/24
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 2 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe, but I never, or very rarely see a Spurs head to the ball first.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 49 minutes ago
Ive watched Villa like 3 times this season now and theyve been quite poor every time. Vs Arsenal, Utd and now Spurs. You watch them turn up next Saturday though!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Massive CL hangovers for them - suspect it will be the same next weekend.
Emery has an insane Euro record, he won’t rotate and I fancy Villa might even go as far as the semis, but their league form will suffer.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 52 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We’re just so short as a team - Solanke and Dragusin were our aerial capability full stop yesterday.
posted on 4/11/24
We can’t risk Davies or Dragusin at Galatasaray - Ipswich is the far bigger game as we’re as good as through in Europe already.
That IPswich game looks massive given the other fixtures next week, imagine if we go above title chasing Arsenal 11 games into the season
Got to sort out this away form though - it’s still very poor
posted on 4/11/24
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Drag was out jumped by Onana for the chance that led to the corner they scored from.
We’re just not a tall team and VDV is poor aerially despite his height.
Loads to be positive about and I’m buzzing, but I do t think we’ve cured ourselves aerially just yet.
Right now though, the biggest change needed is our mentality away from home - we need some resolve
posted on 4/11/24
In such a close game between 2 very well matched sides, I don't think one can be critical of cagey, difficult first half against a team who set up as they did, to make it very hard to break them down. What's important is how we then adjusted to overcome that....and we did that with real style and quality play, on and off the ball.
Overall i think it was an excellent game. A bit like the games vs NUFC and Arsenal where we dominated defensive sides but this time we actually stepped it up and found a way to make the break through.
Thought the team selection was bang on, with the power and running in CM. and the tweaks at half time were a game changer. Good use of subs, although Son seemed a bit too early but understand why, and also reassuring that despite having Davies & Radu at CB for a good 40 minutes, there was little drama in front of goal and once we took the lead we never looked like losing it.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the difference between the eye test and stats. If you applied only the stats then you'd say there's nothing to be concerned about regarding set pieces based on a lack of goals conceded but that doesn't take into account shaky moments and wasteful opposition. Vic doesn't command his box at all. You know you can drop the ball in the 6 yard box and bundle the ball in because he won't take charge and calmly make the ball his.
To not see the problem is frankly delusional. Vicario is a liability in the air. He won't be the first or the last but it's a definite problem.
Lampard was bang on by the way. You can see the panic from him a mile off. He's erratic so imagine what that does to his defence. He's too emotional. We made a huge error not getting Raya in, as good a shot stopper as Vicario is. You see, that's the problem with data. It doesn't tell you the full story. In Italy the game is different so how can you judge a players suitability when the ball isn't in the air as much.
On your other point, you never put your taller players front post. Normally that's reserved for your slightly shorter full backs. You need height for man-marking. Dom is too vital in and around the areas the opposition are likely put their strongest headers of the ball.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Drag was out jumped by Onana for the chance that led to the corner they scored from.
We’re just not a tall team and VDV is poor aerially despite his height.
Loads to be positive about and I’m buzzing, but I do t think we’ve cured ourselves aerially just yet.
Right now though, the biggest change needed is our mentality away from home - we need some resolve
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Onana had a run on the defender for that cross and Drag did enough to make it as hard as possible for him. Not an issue IMO, you are never going to win every header.
But as said above, I do think that corners in particular need looking at a different setup in terms of who stands where. Often our bigger guys are bypassed, not enough height front post and not enough protection of the GK.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Drag was out jumped by Onana for the chance that led to the corner they scored from.
We’re just not a tall team and VDV is poor aerially despite his height.
Loads to be positive about and I’m buzzing, but I do t think we’ve cured ourselves aerially just yet.
Right now though, the biggest change needed is our mentality away from home - we need some resolve
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Onana had a run on the defender for that cross and Drag did enough to make it as hard as possible for him. Not an issue IMO, you are never going to win every header.
But as said above, I do think that corners in particular need looking at a different setup in terms of who stands where. Often our bigger guys are bypassed, not enough height front post and not enough protection of the GK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah agreed, you can’t win every header and Dragusin is our best player aerially.
But like our away form, we need to accept we have a problem and keep working on it.
Great that the home ground is looking like a fortress again though - must beat Ipswich
posted on 4/11/24
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the difference between the eye test and stats. If you applied only the stats then you'd say there's nothing to be concerned about regarding set pieces based on a lack of goals conceded but that doesn't take into account shaky moments and wasteful opposition. Vic doesn't command his box at all. You know you can drop the ball in the 6 yard box and bundle the ball in because he won't take charge and calmly make the ball his.
To not see the problem is frankly delusional. Vicario is a liability in the air. He won't be the first or the last but it's a definite problem.
Lampard was bang on by the way. You can see the panic from him a mile off. He's erratic so imagine what that does to his defence. He's too emotional. We made a huge error not getting Raya in, as good a shot stopper as Vicario is. You see, that's the problem with data. It doesn't tell you the full story. In Italy the game is different so how can you judge a players suitability when the ball isn't in the air as much.
On your other point, you never put your taller players front post. Normally that's reserved for your slightly shorter full backs. You need height for man-marking. Dom is too vital in and around the areas the opposition are likely put their strongest headers of the ball.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kane was always front post. Always, and he was aggressive with it too. We lack this.
With Vicario, yes he doesnt command his box but he is being targeted. If you watch their goal, there is no way he can do anything more than what he did when he is being blocked by a big unit of a CM. That is where he needs help from team mates. If you watch Arsenal vs City, they blocked off Ederson on 2 occassions and should have scored twice, but managed one. In the modern game and in the last 12-18 months, this ploy has really come to the fore. It is increasingly difficult to command the box as a keeper and even less so when someone like Vic has a perceived weakness which is being targeted. fact is we defended the box very well vs Villa, Vic punched one cross clear and came 10 yards to claim another.
In that game where Bournemouth beat Arsenal, Raya flapped at 2 crosses, largely under little challenge, spilled a cross on the ground and recklessly gave away a penalty.
You talk about the eye test - if you watch all keepers, most of them are fallible to mistakes, to being bullied, and there are very few who actually command their 6 yard box. Commanding a box is about more than just the keepers ability to come for a ball, it is a defensive unit thing. Arsenal have the strongest CB pairing and they help Raya in this regard. 6ft 3" Havertz near post, + Ben White. It's a very solid set up. We lack this but its not just on Vicario
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 5 seconds ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Drag was out jumped by Onana for the chance that led to the corner they scored from.
We’re just not a tall team and VDV is poor aerially despite his height.
Loads to be positive about and I’m buzzing, but I do t think we’ve cured ourselves aerially just yet.
Right now though, the biggest change needed is our mentality away from home - we need some resolve
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Onana had a run on the defender for that cross and Drag did enough to make it as hard as possible for him. Not an issue IMO, you are never going to win every header.
But as said above, I do think that corners in particular need looking at a different setup in terms of who stands where. Often our bigger guys are bypassed, not enough height front post and not enough protection of the GK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah agreed, you can’t win every header and Dragusin is our best player aerially.
But like our away form, we need to accept we have a problem and keep working on it.
Great that the home ground is looking like a fortress again though - must beat Ipswich
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are definitely working on it and improving.
We also need to improve our output from attacking set pieces/corners. 6 corners for us and we never really threatened and certainly not the quality of delivery that Villa were putting in or we see from the likes of Arsenal.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Drag was out jumped by Onana for the chance that led to the corner they scored from.
We’re just not a tall team and VDV is poor aerially despite his height.
Loads to be positive about and I’m buzzing, but I do t think we’ve cured ourselves aerially just yet.
Right now though, the biggest change needed is our mentality away from home - we need some resolve
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Onana had a run on the defender for that cross and Drag did enough to make it as hard as possible for him. Not an issue IMO, you are never going to win every header.
But as said above, I do think that corners in particular need looking at a different setup in terms of who stands where. Often our bigger guys are bypassed, not enough height front post and not enough protection of the GK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not the issue. Onana's chance can happen to any team on any given day and the ball was dropped outside of the six yard box. It was just a very good header. You could argue Sonny doesn't do enough to stop the cross coming in in the first place, or at least make it hurried. Like I said though, it was a good passage of play and credit to Villa for that.
The subsequent corner though is where I take issue. Vicario is spending most of his time dancing around Rogers before the ball is dropped INSIDE the six yard box. Vic makes a decent save from the deflection but the very fact that the ball drops inside the six yard box first makes him culpable. Any keeper will say the six yard box is his area. Anything outside that is the responsibility of the others. He has to stop getting distracted by the dancing around him and focus on the ball. If, when he's coming out, he's obstructed, that's a free kick. The issue is that if he doesn't see space, he doesn't come at all. Frankly I don't care if he has to take out half his team. That's his area and he needs to be more commanding.
If you can't see the defensive issue at corners then we'll keep making the same mistakes.
posted on 4/11/24
BTW I was not saying we dont have an issue, just that it's not the massive issue some are making out, not the Achilles heel of a team who have the 4th best defensive record in the league
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the difference between the eye test and stats. If you applied only the stats then you'd say there's nothing to be concerned about regarding set pieces based on a lack of goals conceded but that doesn't take into account shaky moments and wasteful opposition. Vic doesn't command his box at all. You know you can drop the ball in the 6 yard box and bundle the ball in because he won't take charge and calmly make the ball his.
To not see the problem is frankly delusional. Vicario is a liability in the air. He won't be the first or the last but it's a definite problem.
Lampard was bang on by the way. You can see the panic from him a mile off. He's erratic so imagine what that does to his defence. He's too emotional. We made a huge error not getting Raya in, as good a shot stopper as Vicario is. You see, that's the problem with data. It doesn't tell you the full story. In Italy the game is different so how can you judge a players suitability when the ball isn't in the air as much.
On your other point, you never put your taller players front post. Normally that's reserved for your slightly shorter full backs. You need height for man-marking. Dom is too vital in and around the areas the opposition are likely put their strongest headers of the ball.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kane was always front post. Always, and he was aggressive with it too. We lack this.
With Vicario, yes he doesnt command his box but he is being targeted. If you watch their goal, there is no way he can do anything more than what he did when he is being blocked by a big unit of a CM. That is where he needs help from team mates. If you watch Arsenal vs City, they blocked off Ederson on 2 occassions and should have scored twice, but managed one. In the modern game and in the last 12-18 months, this ploy has really come to the fore. It is increasingly difficult to command the box as a keeper and even less so when someone like Vic has a perceived weakness which is being targeted. fact is we defended the box very well vs Villa, Vic punched one cross clear and came 10 yards to claim another.
In that game where Bournemouth beat Arsenal, Raya flapped at 2 crosses, largely under little challenge, spilled a cross on the ground and recklessly gave away a penalty.
You talk about the eye test - if you watch all keepers, most of them are fallible to mistakes, to being bullied, and there are very few who actually command their 6 yard box. Commanding a box is about more than just the keepers ability to come for a ball, it is a defensive unit thing. Arsenal have the strongest CB pairing and they help Raya in this regard. 6ft 3" Havertz near post, + Ben White. It's a very solid set up. We lack this but its not just on Vicario
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know the guy but I'm almost certain the reason why we're not seeing our own players being in that buffer position to protect Vic is because he doesn't want it. Some keepers see it as a further distraction and extra legs in the way of leaping for the ball. The problem with that is that if you don't want the protection, it's then your responsibility to take the ball, which he's not doing.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not the issue. Onana's chance can happen to any team on any given day and the ball was dropped outside of the six yard box. It was just a very good header. You could argue Sonny doesn't do enough to stop the cross coming in in the first place, or at least make it hurried. Like I said though, it was a good passage of play and credit to Villa for that.
The subsequent corner though is where I take issue. Vicario is spending most of his time dancing around Rogers before the ball is dropped INSIDE the six yard box. Vic makes a decent save from the deflection but the very fact that the ball drops inside the six yard box first makes him culpable. Any keeper will say the six yard box is his area. Anything outside that is the responsibility of the others. He has to stop getting distracted by the dancing around him and focus on the ball. If, when he's coming out, he's obstructed, that's a free kick. The issue is that if he doesn't see space, he doesn't come at all. Frankly I don't care if he has to take out half his team. That's his area and he needs to be more commanding.
If you can't see the defensive issue at corners then we'll keep making the same mistakes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Watch the Villa corner. Its Porro who flicks it on 3 or 4 yards ahead of the front post. That aint GK territory.
It quickly deflects off Bents and Vic makes a superb reaction save.
In this instance I do not see how Vic could have done anything different. You could argue that had the initial flick gone near post, then he was badly positioned to stop it because he was untangling himself from Rogers, but he's not chosing to tangle himself with Rogers, that's the ploy of the attacking side. Saw it when Stones scored that late goal @ Wolves, Sarr being bumped around by Silva until the last second.
In both cases, i feel its the defenders that need to be helping the keeper. The attackers are being left to manhandle the keeper all they want. For me, someone needs to be detailed to protect the keeper.
The mantra that anything in the 6 yard box is the keepers just does not ring true anymore.
For me, i'd want Bentacur at the front post. I'd have Udogie protecting the keeper from who ever is trying to block him. I'd also have Porro back post.
We were actually a bit unlucky in that the flick was from Porro, as if it was Torres, then Rogers was offside.
posted on 4/11/24
I don't know the guy but I'm almost certain the reason why we're not seeing our own players being in that buffer position to protect Vic is because he doesn't want it. Some keepers see it as a further distraction and extra legs in the way of leaping for the ball. The problem with that is that if you don't want the protection,
-------------
I agree with that. Another body is just another player to get passed, but he's a wiry frame so really isnt going to win too many physical battles with a lump like Rogers, or Antonio.
I think he has tried it both ways. Maddison has been one to jostle with whoever is in the keepers face, but he's even more of a weakling. Just needs some help from someone with a bit of power themselves, that's who i'd have Udogie more in there rather then back post.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 49 minutes ago
Ive watched Villa like 3 times this season now and theyve been quite poor every time. Vs Arsenal, Utd and now Spurs. You watch them turn up next Saturday though!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Massive CL hangovers for them - suspect it will be the same next weekend.
Emery has an insane Euro record, he won’t rotate and I fancy Villa might even go as far as the semis, but their league form will suffer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot really fancy Villa to go much further than the group stages. First decent side will knock them out. They are a very limited outfit.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 44 minutes ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
comment by PhilspursFGR (U3278)
posted 49 minutes ago
I think our issue with corners is being overstated. That was our second goal conceded from a set piece this season, and it was just unlucky that it bounced the wrong way off the top of Porro's head. Could have happened to any team.
Annoying that if we could've turned just one of our silly losses into a win we'd be sat in third right now, but at least we're still well in touch.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with this. The commentator said Spurs' Achilles heel costs them AGAIN! Ignoring the fact that that's only the 2nd set piece goal conceded this season, so now our record at defending set pieces is as bad as Arsenal and City's this season.
With that setpiece, it was a flick on by Porro that then hit a surprised Bentancur and a great reaction from Vicario to keep it out. Lampard in the studio said something like the keeper was getting needlessly distracted by the Villa player and he should have taken control. What bollox from this failed manager.
The only criticism i have of that corner was that i feel Bentancur should have been front post, not Porro, as he is taller and a decent header of the ball. May be even Solanke, as Kane always used to be near post! But Porro did what he could and from then on it was almost undefendable.
I thought Dragusin was very commanding in the air. Won virtually every header and often with real power, getting it up field so no chance of 2nd ball to them in a dangerous area.
They had some set pieces from wide areas and 4 corners and we defended all but one very well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the difference between the eye test and stats. If you applied only the stats then you'd say there's nothing to be concerned about regarding set pieces based on a lack of goals conceded but that doesn't take into account shaky moments and wasteful opposition. Vic doesn't command his box at all. You know you can drop the ball in the 6 yard box and bundle the ball in because he won't take charge and calmly make the ball his.
To not see the problem is frankly delusional. Vicario is a liability in the air. He won't be the first or the last but it's a definite problem.
Lampard was bang on by the way. You can see the panic from him a mile off. He's erratic so imagine what that does to his defence. He's too emotional. We made a huge error not getting Raya in, as good a shot stopper as Vicario is. You see, that's the problem with data. It doesn't tell you the full story. In Italy the game is different so how can you judge a players suitability when the ball isn't in the air as much.
On your other point, you never put your taller players front post. Normally that's reserved for your slightly shorter full backs. You need height for man-marking. Dom is too vital in and around the areas the opposition are likely put their strongest headers of the ball.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree, Spurs may have only conceeded twice from set piece corners this season, but every corner that comes in looks like an Exocet Missile. Very rarely get defended properly, and Vic doesn`t help with his constant flapping.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 42 minutes ago
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 49 minutes ago
Ive watched Villa like 3 times this season now and theyve been quite poor every time. Vs Arsenal, Utd and now Spurs. You watch them turn up next Saturday though!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Massive CL hangovers for them - suspect it will be the same next weekend.
Emery has an insane Euro record, he won’t rotate and I fancy Villa might even go as far as the semis, but their league form will suffer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot really fancy Villa to go much further than the group stages. First decent side will knock them out. They are a very limited outfit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They’ve beaten Bayern already and top the CL group. They will finish in the top 8 of that in my opinion and skip the first knockout, going straight into the last 16. They will then be seeded for that last 16 tie with the second leg at home - I can see them getting through that.
Worst case scenario for them I think is the Quarters - they would be a favourable draw away from the semis at that point.
posted on 4/11/24
Villa are better than the result yesterday suggests. Maybe they won't make top 4 this season but they'll be there or thereabouts I reckon. We hammered them last season and they still finished above us.
If anything the 2 results show how good we ourselves can/should be.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 1 hour, 39 minutes ago
comment by fridgeboy (U1053)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Devonshirespur (U6316)
posted 7 minutes ago
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's not the issue. Onana's chance can happen to any team on any given day and the ball was dropped outside of the six yard box. It was just a very good header. You could argue Sonny doesn't do enough to stop the cross coming in in the first place, or at least make it hurried. Like I said though, it was a good passage of play and credit to Villa for that.
The subsequent corner though is where I take issue. Vicario is spending most of his time dancing around Rogers before the ball is dropped INSIDE the six yard box. Vic makes a decent save from the deflection but the very fact that the ball drops inside the six yard box first makes him culpable. Any keeper will say the six yard box is his area. Anything outside that is the responsibility of the others. He has to stop getting distracted by the dancing around him and focus on the ball. If, when he's coming out, he's obstructed, that's a free kick. The issue is that if he doesn't see space, he doesn't come at all. Frankly I don't care if he has to take out half his team. That's his area and he needs to be more commanding.
If you can't see the defensive issue at corners then we'll keep making the same mistakes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Watch the Villa corner. Its Porro who flicks it on 3 or 4 yards ahead of the front post. That aint GK territory.
It quickly deflects off Bents and Vic makes a superb reaction save.
In this instance I do not see how Vic could have done anything different. You could argue that had the initial flick gone near post, then he was badly positioned to stop it because he was untangling himself from Rogers, but he's not chosing to tangle himself with Rogers, that's the ploy of the attacking side. Saw it when Stones scored that late goal @ Wolves, Sarr being bumped around by Silva until the last second.
In both cases, i feel its the defenders that need to be helping the keeper. The attackers are being left to manhandle the keeper all they want. For me, someone needs to be detailed to protect the keeper.
The mantra that anything in the 6 yard box is the keepers just does not ring true anymore.
For me, i'd want Bentacur at the front post. I'd have Udogie protecting the keeper from who ever is trying to block him. I'd also have Porro back post.
We were actually a bit unlucky in that the flick was from Porro, as if it was Torres, then Rogers was offside.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I take your point on this. On second viewing, although it dropped in the six yard box, it probably wasn't Vic's territory. That said, I've definitely seen commanding keepers just smash through a bunch of players to punch those.
It's a combination of errors. We're not a big team and even those that are certainly aren't great with their heads. If we have those issues that makes it even more important to have a commanding keeper to deal with that shortfall. As it stands we have the worst of both worlds. A keeper weak in the air and a defence allergic to taking charge high balls.
What would be good to know is how many of the set piece goals we've conceded come in directly to the centre of the six yard box and how many require flick ons. I know I've seen plenty, like Everton last year, where the ball was dropped right in Vic's territory and he flapped at it under pressure and they scored. If we're missing the first man flick on's then you're right, that needs looking at.
It just annoys me that we keep seeing the same mistakes and the problem begins to multiply because every team than tries the same thing. The only reason we haven't conceded more yet is because teams seem to have forgotten our weaknesses, until now.
posted on 4/11/24
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
comment by sandy, golden boot winner fa cup 1901 (U20567)
posted 42 minutes ago
comment by Striketeam7 - staying humble (U18109)
posted 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
comment by Inbefore (U20589)
posted 49 minutes ago
Ive watched Villa like 3 times this season now and theyve been quite poor every time. Vs Arsenal, Utd and now Spurs. You watch them turn up next Saturday though!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Massive CL hangovers for them - suspect it will be the same next weekend.
Emery has an insane Euro record, he won’t rotate and I fancy Villa might even go as far as the semis, but their league form will suffer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cannot really fancy Villa to go much further than the group stages. First decent side will knock them out. They are a very limited outfit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They’ve beaten Bayern already and top the CL group. They will finish in the top 8 of that in my opinion and skip the first knockout, going straight into the last 16. They will then be seeded for that last 16 tie with the second leg at home - I can see them getting through that.
Worst case scenario for them I think is the Quarters - they would be a favourable draw away from the semis at that point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We want them to stay in. The longer they've got CL distractions the more they'll drop in the league.
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