I'm actually feeling pretty positive, results aside, and that will continue even through these fixtures if we continue to improve in general play.

Forest is a game we should've won, but for defensive frailties which can be improved.

Arsenal was a game I think we did as well as can be expected. I think both games highlighted the fact the players aren't comfortable with a zonal marking system at this point in time.

But we are playing out of the back with more confidence, transitioning well up until the final third and there seems to be some belief in the manager from the players.

It'll take time, and with the likes of Wolves and Bournemouth, plus Newcastle at home, hopefully we can get 6-7 points between now and the new year.

If the squad can't get motivated to play the big teams and put in a good performance, well they shouldn't be playing football.
+++

Thing is that with football, some clubs in the PL, mainly those in the bottom half of their league, like any league in the football pyramid, the players generally arent good enough, some even not fit enough to last 90 mins which means the manager will have to make 5 second half subs in every game, well coached enough tactically to be able to play collectively on the front foot in order to put in great performances against the elite teams at the top of their respective leagues, enough to actually get something out of them, no matter how well prepared and motivated thay are to play these games. United are certainly in that bracket of club at the moment. the current fixture list is brutal for United and its compounded by a new manager coming in who is asking the players to play a completely new and very complicated transitional system to what they have been playing for the last few years that most of the players are basically incapable of playing and for some of them even understanding. Its a perfect storm for failure.

Rio has come out and called some United players ‘shiiit’

Wonder which ones he means

comment by Robben Amorim (U22716)
posted 3 minutes ago
Rio has come out and called some United players ‘shiiit’

Wonder which ones he means
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lindelof, Antony, Malacia, Dalot to an extent would be my guess

All squads are full of shiiitt players. Sure, we have our fair share, the problem is our better ones aren't as good as we would like them to be, or more importantly, aren't performing as we would like them to be.

I mean if we take Lindelof, Antony, Malacia and Dalot, Dalot is the only one playing regularly for us.

Agree with Busby. I'm quite surprised at how quickly our underlying play is both changing and improving since Amorim arrived. Some of the build-up against Forest was really good, and both goals were well constructed moves from open play. We lost a game because of individual aberrations, but from a coaching point of view it added to my optimism about where the new manager is taking us.

Nearly everyone said we need to give Amorim time and should expect to suffer for a good while before we get good. So why would we get hung up on results in the meantime? Of course, it's valid to speculate how we'll do in the upcoming fixtures, and I'm not attacking the OP. But I'm much more interested in seeing how our play develops over the coming games than in the scorelines.

comment by RB&W - Our representative on the pitch (U21434)
posted 31 minutes ago
If the squad can't get motivated to play the big teams and put in a good performance, well they shouldn't be playing football.
+++

Thing is that with football, some clubs in the PL, mainly those in the bottom half of their league, like any league in the football pyramid, the players generally arent good enough, some even not fit enough to last 90 mins which means the manager will have to make 5 second half subs in every game, well coached enough tactically to be able to play collectively on the front foot in order to put in great performances against the elite teams at the top of their respective leagues, enough to actually get something out of them, no matter how well prepared and motivated thay are to play these games. United are certainly in that bracket of club at the moment. the current fixture list is brutal for United and its compounded by a new manager coming in who is asking the players to play a completely new and very complicated transitional system to what they have been playing for the last few years that most of the players are basically incapable of playing and for some of them even understanding. Its a perfect storm for failure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The fixture list is what it is, nothing we can do about it. Sure, the players have to adapt and it will take time, but it should be viewed in a positive way that the players are at least clear in what is being asked of them. Some days will work out better than others. But there have been enough good moments in recent games to suggest things can gradually improve.

The lost against Forest was due to individual errors, rather than a reflection of getting use to the new style of playing.

Of course it won't be smooth going, but I want to be more positive than simply say it's a perfect storm for failure.

Kingsang

I would liken this to the period when Arteta and Klopp came in and weren't hoovering up points but were visibly progressing in terms of a tangible playing style emerging. Clearly we can't say Amorim will make us as good as Arteta's and Klopp's sides got, but while there is visible progress in the underlying performance levels, I really wouldn't get hung up on results.

I also think we're starting to see more and more evidence that we have a core of players who work well in Amorim's system. If everyone is fit and he plays a first choice XI, I don't really see any square pegs in round holes, although there is of course space for upgrade. With second-choice players we start to see more issues, but even then I'm impressed with how Amorim seems to be recognising what strengths players have and finding ways to utilise them. E.g. using Rashford and Zirkzee (both of whom fall into the category of not a comfortable profile fit for the 3-4-3) in a complementary way - Z's ability to drop deep and link up play with R's running in behind.

Why would you say city be the easiest of the lot?
You just know they're going to pump us 6-0 now. FFS IDIOT

If we're still searching for better performances then it may well be better to have this period against the better teams (as they'd be tough even if we were 100%) and then, when the 'easier' games come we could go on a nice little run of results to go along with improved performances.

I thought we were good against Forest and I'm sure we'd have won if it wasn't for Onana's brain fart at the start of the second half.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 2 hours, 1 minute ago
Kingsang

I would liken this to the period when Arteta and Klopp came in and weren't hoovering up points but were visibly progressing in terms of a tangible playing style emerging. Clearly we can't say Amorim will make us as good as Arteta's and Klopp's sides got, but while there is visible progress in the underlying performance levels, I really wouldn't get hung up on results.

I also think we're starting to see more and more evidence that we have a core of players who work well in Amorim's system. If everyone is fit and he plays a first choice XI, I don't really see any square pegs in round holes, although there is of course space for upgrade. With second-choice players we start to see more issues, but even then I'm impressed with how Amorim seems to be recognising what strengths players have and finding ways to utilise them. E.g. using Rashford and Zirkzee (both of whom fall into the category of not a comfortable profile fit for the 3-4-3) in a complementary way - Z's ability to drop deep and link up play with R's running in behind.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with a lot of what you say RR.

I would say that results aren't overly important, but we can't lose too many games either, because persuading players and fans alike to have belief in something if you are losing a lot isn't an easy sell, no matter how much we understand the current situation. And to a degree, improving performances will go hand in hand with improving results.

There are already some players who stand out. For me, those are Maz, De Ligt, Bruno and Amad. I expect the likes of Ugarte, Mainoo and Yoro to improve vastly. It may take a bit longer with others.

I have to be honest and I'm a bit disappointed in Martinez, Hojlund and Garnacho. Hopefully they will improve in the coming weeks / months.

I'm no longer expecting much from Rashy, Dalot and Antony. Hoping that Zirkzee can improve, but not getting a good feeling about him. Finding it hard to keep faith in Mount, even though Amorim is clearly a fan.

But there's time for all the players to improve and show they have what it takes.

And as we have seen so many times, sometimes playing the better teams, the pressure and expectation is off, so they can play a bit more freely.

Just finally on the Forest game - I felt so confident at HT that we would win the game, but you just couldn't account for those individual errors.

Kinsang, agree with a lot of that.

On the player assessments:

Mazraoui has been exceptional under both managers. Only question about him is whether the injuries strike as they did at Bayern. A really classy and intelligent player.

De Ligt - early signs are that he's fine in a back three, despite received wisdom that it didn't suit him at Juventus.

Bruno - I think this system will get more out of him, as will improved structure to team attacking moves. Also in his favour is that he's one of not that many players who will run and run, which is a prerequisite for Amorim.

Amad - it was already shaping up as a breakthrough season before ETH was sacked. He'll be a regular under Amorim, though I still think it's possible that will be as an attacking midfielder if we recruit wing backs.

Ugarte looks like he's starting to find his feet in the league, understands Amorim's requirements for obvious reasons, and is also beginning to show greater quality passing the ball than we were led to believe he had (I was very impressed with him against Forest).

Mainoo isn't back to last year's form but I think he'll be fine.

Yoro seems made for the RCB role, but great that Maz's form mean we can ease him in.

Martinez - clearly not quite back to his best but he's also not the ideal profile fit for a wide CB because he doesn't have pace. Too good on the ball to discount as surplus to requirements but there's more question about his long term fit than I'd have thought a while ago.

Garnacho - I've never been quite as excited about his talent level as some of our fans, but he seems to be a better profile fit for the inside forward role than Rashford, and again his work rate will be valued. Makes the right runs, and hopefully his composure with shot / final pass selection and execution will improve with experience.

Hojlund - I suspect he will be very good once the whole team begins to approach the slick attacking plays Amorim wants. But we could do with depth/competition as we don't have another (senior) forward with the same attributes.

Dalot - aware I'm an outlier in not hating him, but for me he's one of a few players whose technical and athletic levels are *both* above a decent baseline, and he's first/second choice in a couple of positions. It may be we can upgrade and make a profit on his sale, in which case worth doing. But in principle there are plenty of other players we would be better off moving on and having Dalot as squad depth.

Rashford - some signs Amorim might find a way of exploiting his ability to run in behind in certain game plans, but I struggle to see him as a good fit to play week in, week out.

Antony - if there's a buyer, let him come forward.

Zirkzee - he's a talent, and an unusual profile. Not an obvious fit in the 3-4-3 but Amorim has already shown better imagination as to how he can be utilised. We'll see how he settles. Early days. I think he'll have a good career somewhere, if not in the PL.

Mount - think he'll play a lot if he stays fit.

I think Amad could do more damage in an attacking role and agree he has many strings to his bow, hence why he is playing at wing back. Could it be that our right side eventually consists of Yoro, Maz and Amad - that looks pretty tasty...........in complete contrast to the left

I see Dalot as cover rather than first choice, a good squad player but feel we could improve on him (that seems to apply to as lot of our players). The lack of pace of Martinez worries me greatly - he seemed pretty exposed in the Forest game. Could he come into midfield as cover for Ugarte?

I'm assuming Antony isn't injured - because he's been given virtually no game time, compared to others which suggests Amorim doesn't rate him at all.

I'm not sure Lisandro has the legs for the midfield role. Lack of pace is a slight concern with Mainoo as it is. Actually, I could see Dalot as a utility player being fifth choice in midfield / third choice at LCB and RCB. The Portuguese John O'Shea.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 19 minutes ago
I'm not sure Lisandro has the legs for the midfield role. Lack of pace is a slight concern with Mainoo as it is. Actually, I could see Dalot as a utility player being fifth choice in midfield / third choice at LCB and RCB. The Portuguese John O'Shea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that more insulting to O'Shea or Dalot..........

comment by kinsang (U3346)
posted 16 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 19 minutes ago
I'm not sure Lisandro has the legs for the midfield role. Lack of pace is a slight concern with Mainoo as it is. Actually, I could see Dalot as a utility player being fifth choice in midfield / third choice at LCB and RCB. The Portuguese John O'Shea.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that more insulting to O'Shea or Dalot..........
----------------------------------------------------------------------

- Dependable 6/10 performances as centre back, full back and DM
- Nutmegged Luis Figo
- Lobbed Jens Lehmann
- 100% clean sheet record as goalkeeper

...what's there to be insulted by?!

Dependable 6/10 performances as centre back, full back and DM
- Nutmegged Luis Figo
- Lobbed Jens Lehmann
- 100% clean sheet record as goalkeeper

Scored a 93rd minute winner at Anfield.

I've said for a while (only half-jokingly) that Amorim wouldn't make it past Feb.

After the last couple of games, and looking at our upcoming fixtures, I think it's a very realistic possibility that we'll be trying to poach RVN from Leicester come Feb/March.