Your too busy working to call in to a radio show but you have time to post this article while at work...?
I have a lot of sympathy for public sector workers because they have no possibility of making the six and seven figure salaries rountinely made in the private sector by people who have exploited the system in order to profit at others expense.
In many companies the lower paid workers are the younger, more able and harder working employees, while the more senior guys simply make their lives hell and get paid a lot more for it.
The public sector pay scheme is more equal, but it too has been affected by the ludicrous top salary inflation seen across our economy over the last few decades.
If they introduced a maxium wage multiplier of 25x the minimum salary, then I would have total sympathy for private sector companies complaining about public sector pensions, but the private sector has robbed from pensions to pay their senior execs more, not because they are unaffordable. The private sector is making record profits at the moment, and none of it is going to the people doing the work.
The public sector shouldn't take the blame for this. If I were you I'd seriously look at challenging your boss if you are unhappy with your private sector scheme. Most of all I'd ask for equity and the chance to vote on the performance of the board like shareholders do. It's no surprise that companies where workers have ownership like John Lewis give much more generous pensions, healthcare and salaries than those who are publicly listed or private partnerships. The management are responsible to the staff in John Lewis, and they have to treat them with some respect.
"making the six and seven figure salaries rountinely made in the private sector by people who have exploited the system in order to profit at others expense."
Yeah that's me all over that is, what shall I do with my 7 figure salary
Private Sector is commonly see 0% increases and in most cases -ve% most Private Sector employees have had Final Salary Pensions not just restructured but totally removed, leaving us dependant on the performance of the stock market at the time we retire. Final Salary is a Defined Benefit, in that you KNOW what you will get when you retire, even if that is slightly less than you hoped for, 'normal' pension plans are a gamble as far as I'm aware the most victorious in the gamble will still barely hold a candle to FS pensions.
My knowledge is weak in the pensions field but I'm fairly sure that what I've said is accurate
On the 6-7 figure salaries, no one in the public sector would earn that would they?
The public sector workers are striking because the government are imposing a change to the contract that persuaded them to join the civil service in the first place.
To make it worse they are discriminating against those who are below 50 by having this age as a cut off for pension contributions.
If two people began working for the service 15 years ago doing an identical job but the difference is that one is 50 and the other 49, how is it fair that the younger one will have to pay more all of a sudden. This "tax" should be collected by other means. The bankers are still rich!
These terms should only be for new starters to public sector.
On the 6-7 figure salaries, no one in the public sector would earn that would they?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did say that was a worrying trend in the public sector, that they are upping the pay of the execs there too, especially in sectors that compete with private companies e.g. BBC.
And I am very angry that these particular public sector workers are getting those kind of salaries when so many people are being laid off.
I work in the private sector too, and I am not happy with the way people are treated, and the way the heirarchy is becoming increasingly polarised, with people at the top keeping all their generous pensions while all the time people at the bottom have their allowances cut.
Private sector workers are right to say the public sector has better protection on pensions than private sector workers. But I don't think that just because so many people in the private sector have been screwed we should use it to justify doing the same in the public sector.
Instead it is these irresponsible managers who have paid themselves large increases for successfully freezing/lowering the pay of those below them who should be being taken to task, and our system of shareholder ownership needs reviewing, if the system can be so openly exploited by company boardrooms. The scandal is at the top, it is not that nurses and doctors and firefighters and policemen etc are paid a decent pensions.
Walrus, thats a much clearer position and yes you are right, that one group being shafted doesn't justify another getting the same. But, the private sector is what produces the income that the public sector consumes. Its just galling that its expected we should "support the strike" as that's the opposite, they have watched private sector getting the screws turned and no doubt thought how nice it was that they had a cushy pension and pay rise, now the shoe's on the other foot. It sucks, I know, but its them that are late to the 'kick in the teeth party' we've been there already
My partner works in the public sector.
She has earnt less during her 25 years service than equivalent jobs in the private sector.
This was acknowledged and recognised when she took the employment.
In light of this, her pension and additional benefits were in place to compensate.
To force people into signing new contracts of employment, make pension reductions now, at her time of life, after she has planned accordingly for years is clearly unfair. To be forced into it due to extremely poor financial mis-management of the pension fund is laughable and unfair.
She has lost 40k plus. Not sure how she can consider this good news.
We've finally found something to disagree on oojw! I agree () she can't consider it good news. But thats the recession for you. My dad has lost his job twice in the last 3 years and my mum once (and is still out of work). I've only been in my current job a year but apparently there hasn't been a pay-rise where I work for the last 4 and won't be any time in the forseeable future. I used to work in the public sector myself and I don't have it in for anyone, I just think there's no reasonable cause for this strike. **** happens, its been happening to the private sector by the truckload for at least 3 years now, it finally hits the public sector and we get nationwide, hugely disruptive strikes.
Will try and reply when I get a chance Walrus. Forgot these kind of topics require a lot more dodging the boss than saying Diouf should be our new manager!
Yeah I can understand where you are coming from in that respect MJ, but the wealth-generating argument is a red-herring in my view. We still need the public sector to allow the private sector to function. Sure the private sector generates the money, but without the public sector they would not be able to. (without the infrastructure, the education, the health services etc)
It's like the sales team claiming all the credit for a companies revenue, yes they sold all the products but they couldn't have done it without the factory workers or the logistics team etc.
I don't buy the argument that the public sector is where the woes are for the UK economy right now.
Nor do I blame it on solely bankers (although I feel they have a lot to answer for), but as a part of a failing of capitalism. Some people want to say capitalism is broken, I don't think that, but I do think we need the incentives of CEOs and boardrooms to be realigned with the interests of shareholders and workers alike.
I don't really think we can lay all the blame with CEOs either, if you were fortunate enough to be in that position and all your mates were getting 50% raises, you'd ask for the same I'm sure.
The problem is more a systemic one, with CEOs taking full responsibility and then claiming full reward for the performances of companies for which they can only ever have a partial influence of. It doesn't help that we have seen people like Branson and Jobs put on pedestals and hear how if only you had a boss as good as one of those your business would be sure to be a Google or an Apple, people forget all the other talented people there and that a company is only as good as its weakest link.
Paying people a lot of money also doesn't work as a psycological inducement, research shows that paying people by results simply encourages them to focus on the rewards scheme rather than all the different aspects of their job. It seems we have tried to substitute proper evaluation of people with paying them by their numbers, and it turns out that just like with Communism people just focus on the numbers to the detriment of everything else.
This is a huge post I know, got a bit carried away.
"We've finally found something to disagree on oojw!"
Yeah we are better sticking to the football.... I hear and discuss this topic every night, so have lots of ammunition! Have my own business and have been badly affected during the recession. Fully understand both viewpoints, but do feel sorry for people that were mis-led and now have to react accordingly.
Interesting thread so we better put some football points in so it does not get removed. All I want to say is Wow Wow Wow - Steve Kean is brilliant.
Bet SK doesn't have worries about his pension
Is that what happens? Yeah Keano for England!
I agree Walrus, capitalism is flawed and in an ideal system the wealth in this country wouldn't be polarised to the frankly disgusting extent that it is now. But as MJ says, private sector workers have already taken the hit the public sector is complaining about. In the case of pensions we took it long ago and to the extent that my research has gone MJ is spot on regarding the huge advantage of defined benefit public sector pensions in comparison to defined contribution private sector ones.
But who will be taking the hit if these strikes get what they want? Not the wealthy, not the bankers, the normal private sector workers again! All taxes will rise and personally I can't flipping afford it. Far from popular opinion amongst people who know nothing about it, the vast majority of the private sector are on just as **** wages as the public sector. I'm 28 and on 16k, is that good? Cause its about average up north and theres naff all in the way of a pension to compensate for it.
But I can't go on strike. My union would laugh its ass off at me. I've only seen a union representative once in any private sector job I've ever done, and that was when they unsuccessfully tried to stop one of my colleagues being fired by his racist manager. Honestly, these strikers don't live in the real world as far as I'm concerned. Or they do but they just want the money anyway.
Blueandwhite - Yeah, I don't think they're striking because they think the deals they've been offered are totally outrageous, but more because they agreed to work longer and pay in more and get out less already, less than two years ago.
Now the conservatives have come in, cut benefits and tax credits for the poorest, told everyone public sector was unaffordable and frozen public sector salaries, said they were going to fire 400,000 workers - now it's risen to 710,000, are reorganising and privatising the NHS and schools, and have accused the public sector of having gold-plated pensions...
and blocked a Tobin tax on the banks, cut inheritance tax for the wealthiest, and are calling to scrap the 50% rate for top earners.
The fact is that while the government are prepared to talk tough about the banks and high executive pay, their actions have spoken loudly and they have introduced a series of regressive tax changes that benefit the wealthiest.
The public sector don't trust the govt to stick to a deal if they make one, and don't trust the terms of the deal, and don't understand why after renegotiating a worse deal 2 years ago they need to do it again.
Some of it is doubtless militancy from the unions, but a lot of it is reflective of the divisive way the govt has approached this.
Where is the "Big Society", what of all the talk about us being "all in this together"?
That's why they're striking, it's not necessarily financial, but emotional, and the govt have deliberately stoked resentment because divided public opinion suits them.
I might as well join in on this as a public sector worker, although I'm not on strike so fear not! But others in my organisation are on strike.
I work for an organisation that ensures Hospitals, Private Hospitals and Clinics and all Social Care Services provide good quality care to our public.
We live in a democracy and I believe in public services, we need them and therefore there will be a large number of employees involved.
Not everything in this world should be there to make money and line the pockets of Executives. The money that comes into my organisation is essentially just filtered through the health system, we are not a drain to the tax payer in the least and are the people that will ensure an ambulance arrives swiftly in an emergency, that you don't wait too long in A&E, you are provided with good quality and caring staff, along with being fed good food should you stay over etc.
We do a good thing for this country and there is no money to be made from it, we rely on an agreed pension scheme to compensate for this. I've been on a pay freeze for 2 years, and after that capped to 1% payrise thereafter.
I didn't necessary choose to work in the public sector, but that is where I am as we speak, admittedly it seems just as tough in the private sector, I've had 3 of my uncles, all in extremely well paid private sector jobs, get canned recently.
It does seem very dog eat dog at the minute, we can all thank our parents for having it too easy in the 80s and 90s, leaving us to pick up the sh......
Comment deleted by Article Creator
Comment deleted by Article Creator
The argument was below that comment..prat!
lol deleted by....a tory?
whats up blueandwhitehalves you have no comeback so you delete my post lol.
blueand whitehalves, can't agree with you at all her. Public sector is not supposed to be a profit making organisation but a service provider. Therefore it will by default need money. The Govt was happy for the whole country to take the day off for those young Royals to get married. Now how much did that cost? Did not here to many complaints about that. The people out on strike today will also lose a days pay will they not?
I can see where the blue part of your user name comes from, I bet you still have a poster of Thatcher on your wall!
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Jesus, please read at least some of the stuff I've posted in this thread. I earn crap money, my parents earn crap money, I'm as working class as it gets and I despise all the main parties equally. This is simply an angry reaction to one group of people complaining about something another group had to accept. I find it baffling the strikers expect support from anyone to be honest.
If you had left the post up instead of deleting it then people would have seen that I addressed every single part of your opening discussion. I feel its you who are brainwashed because you cannot reference any of you argument other than from tory inflicted propaganda that you have swallowed hook line and sinker. The website was to counteract the lies being spread by the media. Luckily only 25% of the public believe these as 75% of the public are behind us.
We earn LESS than private sector
BWH, sorry for the tory comment. However if you understood fully what the pension argument means to people then you will understand why they are so angry about this issue. There is more such as pay freeze etc. I have no doubt that you are on poor pay, there are other ways such as re-training for better prospects. This issue is far more complex as is your own personal circumstances, therefore when you started this thread you are bound to get extremes from both ends.
The most important thing is
KEAN OUT
I've never voted Tory in my life and NO YOU DON'T. This is exactly what I thought, you lot think everyone in the private sector is minted. None of us have had a pay rise in about 5 years and below management level we get paid peanuts! We are every bit as bad off if not worse off than you and our pension is much, much worse.
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Public Sector Strike
Page 1 of 2
posted on 30/11/11
Your too busy working to call in to a radio show but you have time to post this article while at work...?
I have a lot of sympathy for public sector workers because they have no possibility of making the six and seven figure salaries rountinely made in the private sector by people who have exploited the system in order to profit at others expense.
In many companies the lower paid workers are the younger, more able and harder working employees, while the more senior guys simply make their lives hell and get paid a lot more for it.
The public sector pay scheme is more equal, but it too has been affected by the ludicrous top salary inflation seen across our economy over the last few decades.
If they introduced a maxium wage multiplier of 25x the minimum salary, then I would have total sympathy for private sector companies complaining about public sector pensions, but the private sector has robbed from pensions to pay their senior execs more, not because they are unaffordable. The private sector is making record profits at the moment, and none of it is going to the people doing the work.
The public sector shouldn't take the blame for this. If I were you I'd seriously look at challenging your boss if you are unhappy with your private sector scheme. Most of all I'd ask for equity and the chance to vote on the performance of the board like shareholders do. It's no surprise that companies where workers have ownership like John Lewis give much more generous pensions, healthcare and salaries than those who are publicly listed or private partnerships. The management are responsible to the staff in John Lewis, and they have to treat them with some respect.
posted on 30/11/11
"making the six and seven figure salaries rountinely made in the private sector by people who have exploited the system in order to profit at others expense."
Yeah that's me all over that is, what shall I do with my 7 figure salary
Private Sector is commonly see 0% increases and in most cases -ve% most Private Sector employees have had Final Salary Pensions not just restructured but totally removed, leaving us dependant on the performance of the stock market at the time we retire. Final Salary is a Defined Benefit, in that you KNOW what you will get when you retire, even if that is slightly less than you hoped for, 'normal' pension plans are a gamble as far as I'm aware the most victorious in the gamble will still barely hold a candle to FS pensions.
My knowledge is weak in the pensions field but I'm fairly sure that what I've said is accurate
On the 6-7 figure salaries, no one in the public sector would earn that would they?
posted on 30/11/11
The public sector workers are striking because the government are imposing a change to the contract that persuaded them to join the civil service in the first place.
To make it worse they are discriminating against those who are below 50 by having this age as a cut off for pension contributions.
If two people began working for the service 15 years ago doing an identical job but the difference is that one is 50 and the other 49, how is it fair that the younger one will have to pay more all of a sudden. This "tax" should be collected by other means. The bankers are still rich!
These terms should only be for new starters to public sector.
posted on 30/11/11
On the 6-7 figure salaries, no one in the public sector would earn that would they?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did say that was a worrying trend in the public sector, that they are upping the pay of the execs there too, especially in sectors that compete with private companies e.g. BBC.
And I am very angry that these particular public sector workers are getting those kind of salaries when so many people are being laid off.
I work in the private sector too, and I am not happy with the way people are treated, and the way the heirarchy is becoming increasingly polarised, with people at the top keeping all their generous pensions while all the time people at the bottom have their allowances cut.
Private sector workers are right to say the public sector has better protection on pensions than private sector workers. But I don't think that just because so many people in the private sector have been screwed we should use it to justify doing the same in the public sector.
Instead it is these irresponsible managers who have paid themselves large increases for successfully freezing/lowering the pay of those below them who should be being taken to task, and our system of shareholder ownership needs reviewing, if the system can be so openly exploited by company boardrooms. The scandal is at the top, it is not that nurses and doctors and firefighters and policemen etc are paid a decent pensions.
posted on 30/11/11
Walrus, thats a much clearer position and yes you are right, that one group being shafted doesn't justify another getting the same. But, the private sector is what produces the income that the public sector consumes. Its just galling that its expected we should "support the strike" as that's the opposite, they have watched private sector getting the screws turned and no doubt thought how nice it was that they had a cushy pension and pay rise, now the shoe's on the other foot. It sucks, I know, but its them that are late to the 'kick in the teeth party' we've been there already
posted on 30/11/11
My partner works in the public sector.
She has earnt less during her 25 years service than equivalent jobs in the private sector.
This was acknowledged and recognised when she took the employment.
In light of this, her pension and additional benefits were in place to compensate.
To force people into signing new contracts of employment, make pension reductions now, at her time of life, after she has planned accordingly for years is clearly unfair. To be forced into it due to extremely poor financial mis-management of the pension fund is laughable and unfair.
She has lost 40k plus. Not sure how she can consider this good news.
posted on 30/11/11
We've finally found something to disagree on oojw! I agree () she can't consider it good news. But thats the recession for you. My dad has lost his job twice in the last 3 years and my mum once (and is still out of work). I've only been in my current job a year but apparently there hasn't been a pay-rise where I work for the last 4 and won't be any time in the forseeable future. I used to work in the public sector myself and I don't have it in for anyone, I just think there's no reasonable cause for this strike. **** happens, its been happening to the private sector by the truckload for at least 3 years now, it finally hits the public sector and we get nationwide, hugely disruptive strikes.
Will try and reply when I get a chance Walrus. Forgot these kind of topics require a lot more dodging the boss than saying Diouf should be our new manager!
posted on 30/11/11
Yeah I can understand where you are coming from in that respect MJ, but the wealth-generating argument is a red-herring in my view. We still need the public sector to allow the private sector to function. Sure the private sector generates the money, but without the public sector they would not be able to. (without the infrastructure, the education, the health services etc)
It's like the sales team claiming all the credit for a companies revenue, yes they sold all the products but they couldn't have done it without the factory workers or the logistics team etc.
I don't buy the argument that the public sector is where the woes are for the UK economy right now.
Nor do I blame it on solely bankers (although I feel they have a lot to answer for), but as a part of a failing of capitalism. Some people want to say capitalism is broken, I don't think that, but I do think we need the incentives of CEOs and boardrooms to be realigned with the interests of shareholders and workers alike.
I don't really think we can lay all the blame with CEOs either, if you were fortunate enough to be in that position and all your mates were getting 50% raises, you'd ask for the same I'm sure.
The problem is more a systemic one, with CEOs taking full responsibility and then claiming full reward for the performances of companies for which they can only ever have a partial influence of. It doesn't help that we have seen people like Branson and Jobs put on pedestals and hear how if only you had a boss as good as one of those your business would be sure to be a Google or an Apple, people forget all the other talented people there and that a company is only as good as its weakest link.
Paying people a lot of money also doesn't work as a psycological inducement, research shows that paying people by results simply encourages them to focus on the rewards scheme rather than all the different aspects of their job. It seems we have tried to substitute proper evaluation of people with paying them by their numbers, and it turns out that just like with Communism people just focus on the numbers to the detriment of everything else.
This is a huge post I know, got a bit carried away.
posted on 30/11/11
"We've finally found something to disagree on oojw!"
Yeah we are better sticking to the football.... I hear and discuss this topic every night, so have lots of ammunition! Have my own business and have been badly affected during the recession. Fully understand both viewpoints, but do feel sorry for people that were mis-led and now have to react accordingly.
Interesting thread so we better put some football points in so it does not get removed. All I want to say is Wow Wow Wow - Steve Kean is brilliant.
posted on 30/11/11
Bet SK doesn't have worries about his pension
posted on 30/11/11
Is that what happens? Yeah Keano for England!
I agree Walrus, capitalism is flawed and in an ideal system the wealth in this country wouldn't be polarised to the frankly disgusting extent that it is now. But as MJ says, private sector workers have already taken the hit the public sector is complaining about. In the case of pensions we took it long ago and to the extent that my research has gone MJ is spot on regarding the huge advantage of defined benefit public sector pensions in comparison to defined contribution private sector ones.
But who will be taking the hit if these strikes get what they want? Not the wealthy, not the bankers, the normal private sector workers again! All taxes will rise and personally I can't flipping afford it. Far from popular opinion amongst people who know nothing about it, the vast majority of the private sector are on just as **** wages as the public sector. I'm 28 and on 16k, is that good? Cause its about average up north and theres naff all in the way of a pension to compensate for it.
But I can't go on strike. My union would laugh its ass off at me. I've only seen a union representative once in any private sector job I've ever done, and that was when they unsuccessfully tried to stop one of my colleagues being fired by his racist manager. Honestly, these strikers don't live in the real world as far as I'm concerned. Or they do but they just want the money anyway.
posted on 30/11/11
Blueandwhite - Yeah, I don't think they're striking because they think the deals they've been offered are totally outrageous, but more because they agreed to work longer and pay in more and get out less already, less than two years ago.
Now the conservatives have come in, cut benefits and tax credits for the poorest, told everyone public sector was unaffordable and frozen public sector salaries, said they were going to fire 400,000 workers - now it's risen to 710,000, are reorganising and privatising the NHS and schools, and have accused the public sector of having gold-plated pensions...
and blocked a Tobin tax on the banks, cut inheritance tax for the wealthiest, and are calling to scrap the 50% rate for top earners.
The fact is that while the government are prepared to talk tough about the banks and high executive pay, their actions have spoken loudly and they have introduced a series of regressive tax changes that benefit the wealthiest.
The public sector don't trust the govt to stick to a deal if they make one, and don't trust the terms of the deal, and don't understand why after renegotiating a worse deal 2 years ago they need to do it again.
Some of it is doubtless militancy from the unions, but a lot of it is reflective of the divisive way the govt has approached this.
Where is the "Big Society", what of all the talk about us being "all in this together"?
That's why they're striking, it's not necessarily financial, but emotional, and the govt have deliberately stoked resentment because divided public opinion suits them.
posted on 30/11/11
I might as well join in on this as a public sector worker, although I'm not on strike so fear not! But others in my organisation are on strike.
I work for an organisation that ensures Hospitals, Private Hospitals and Clinics and all Social Care Services provide good quality care to our public.
We live in a democracy and I believe in public services, we need them and therefore there will be a large number of employees involved.
Not everything in this world should be there to make money and line the pockets of Executives. The money that comes into my organisation is essentially just filtered through the health system, we are not a drain to the tax payer in the least and are the people that will ensure an ambulance arrives swiftly in an emergency, that you don't wait too long in A&E, you are provided with good quality and caring staff, along with being fed good food should you stay over etc.
We do a good thing for this country and there is no money to be made from it, we rely on an agreed pension scheme to compensate for this. I've been on a pay freeze for 2 years, and after that capped to 1% payrise thereafter.
I didn't necessary choose to work in the public sector, but that is where I am as we speak, admittedly it seems just as tough in the private sector, I've had 3 of my uncles, all in extremely well paid private sector jobs, get canned recently.
It does seem very dog eat dog at the minute, we can all thank our parents for having it too easy in the 80s and 90s, leaving us to pick up the sh......
posted on 30/11/11
Comment deleted by Article Creator
posted on 30/11/11
Comment deleted by Article Creator
posted on 30/11/11
The argument was below that comment..prat!
posted on 30/11/11
lol deleted by....a tory?
posted on 30/11/11
whats up blueandwhitehalves you have no comeback so you delete my post lol.
posted on 30/11/11
blueand whitehalves, can't agree with you at all her. Public sector is not supposed to be a profit making organisation but a service provider. Therefore it will by default need money. The Govt was happy for the whole country to take the day off for those young Royals to get married. Now how much did that cost? Did not here to many complaints about that. The people out on strike today will also lose a days pay will they not?
I can see where the blue part of your user name comes from, I bet you still have a poster of Thatcher on your wall!
posted on 30/11/11
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 30/11/11
Jesus, please read at least some of the stuff I've posted in this thread. I earn crap money, my parents earn crap money, I'm as working class as it gets and I despise all the main parties equally. This is simply an angry reaction to one group of people complaining about something another group had to accept. I find it baffling the strikers expect support from anyone to be honest.
posted on 30/11/11
If you had left the post up instead of deleting it then people would have seen that I addressed every single part of your opening discussion. I feel its you who are brainwashed because you cannot reference any of you argument other than from tory inflicted propaganda that you have swallowed hook line and sinker. The website was to counteract the lies being spread by the media. Luckily only 25% of the public believe these as 75% of the public are behind us.
posted on 30/11/11
We earn LESS than private sector
posted on 30/11/11
BWH, sorry for the tory comment. However if you understood fully what the pension argument means to people then you will understand why they are so angry about this issue. There is more such as pay freeze etc. I have no doubt that you are on poor pay, there are other ways such as re-training for better prospects. This issue is far more complex as is your own personal circumstances, therefore when you started this thread you are bound to get extremes from both ends.
The most important thing is
KEAN OUT
posted on 30/11/11
I've never voted Tory in my life and NO YOU DON'T. This is exactly what I thought, you lot think everyone in the private sector is minted. None of us have had a pay rise in about 5 years and below management level we get paid peanuts! We are every bit as bad off if not worse off than you and our pension is much, much worse.
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