>>but the CL stats
from 2 years ago
all the top talent went to spain, got old, or got crocked.
We were the third tier league for decades, just barely pipped the top spot for a few seasons, then fell back to at least second again.
Us being the 'best' league was an anomoly.
Bales - well obviously. All whites look the same to me
We should attract better players now since Spain has increased their tax
-----------------------------------------------------
Think we are on equal tax now
I think we'd attract better players if we weren't a land without so much rain and cold. Give me a Spanish winter over ours any day. Not so much the summer, too hot then, I don't want to sit in puddles of my own sweat all the time. I think it the culture/food as well draws people more towards Italy and Spain as well.
messiaharry,
One of our best players is VDV who Real let go for £8m.
====================
I dont mean to be patronising or sarcastic, but what has VDV's value got to do with a comparison between Europe's leagues?
We're 50% and they're now on 52%, but also Spanish clubs (apart from Barcelona and Madrid) can't pay high wages like we can, the lower tax helped them attract better players but not so much any more.
Chicken, in the fact they valued him at so little, whereas we'd value him far greater to us. To them he was nothing special with them that he's not worth much. Whereas if we were selling him we'd expect a small fortune for him in the first place. Ergo Spanish league has more better players than PL.
Thats my take on messiah's comment
Regarding getting the best talent I think City have distorted the market in general. Not only by buying up all the best available talent, but inflating wages beyond the reaches of a sustainable business.
Sorry dipping in and out of work here, yeah Chicken thats my point. The fact that we value him so highly as a player, he walks onto our team. Totally surplus to Real.
I think its mainly due to the following reasons:
Man U are ageing and not replaced anyone recently and are in a small decline.
Man C are good enough they just need even more time to gel. They keep buying and disrupting the team.
Chelsea are a mix of the two above, need fresh young players and a strong manager.
Arsenal havent been playing that well in previous year, gradual decline and not spending and replacing quality.
Spurs of course are on the up with young eager talent wanting to make it big and therefore entertained last year in the champs!
31 Moments,
Firstly, VDV was originally going to Munich for £18m.
Secondly, are you suggesting that a transfer fee determines how good a player is?
If thats the case, we may as well give up now.
For the record:
Modric = £15m approx
Fabregas = £35m approx
Does that mean Fabregas is more than twice the player Modric is?
Your valuation-to-ability theory does not work - not in my book anyway.
>>Does that mean Fabregas is more than twice the player Modric is?
he is
but your point is correct that transfer fees don't perfectly reflect ability
Thats a valid point Bales, but that has its own issues.
i think a better example than City is Arsenal. They seem to pay some of their younger/fringe players great wages, but then when they don't pan out to be the player they'd hope they then have trouble shifting them onto another club because tjhey earn a good wage at Arsenal, so why would they leave. City have the same issue with Bridge, but City can afford to have this noose around their neck, Arsenal can't
No, im not suggesting value of the player is relative to how good they are.
What I am saying is that would we let a player like VDV go for a fee like that (especially a cut price fee). The only way we'd do that is if we had a squad full of great players. Which is exacty what RM have.
messiaharry,
Sorry dipping in and out of work here, yeah Chicken thats my point. The fact that we value him so highly as a player, he walks onto our team. Totally surplus to Real.
=======================
But what about Pique, who was surplus to Man Utd - now at the heart of the Barca defence?
Robinho, surplus at City. KPB surplus at Spurs etc etc
How does that work?
There is always going to be fall-outs with managers, and other circumstances that leads to players being "surplus". This doesnt mean they are not good enough to get in their team.
Tevez has been "surplus" for ages now, but he would walk into most top clubs throughout Europe. And he would have cost less than Balotelli, Dzeko etc
I'm sorry, but that theory is flawed time & time again.
31 Moments
As i said, VDV was actually moving for £18m. It broke down at the last minute (probably because he is never & will never be fully fit), hence we gave them a gesture (£8m).
Ok, well you can use facts to prove anything.
Personally I don't think our league has got weaker, if anything it has got stronger, but this season three teams have had a bad season.
1- Arsenal - haven't replaced ones they have lost
2. Chelsea - Manager and player issues
3. Man Utd - Injuries and the start of several new players at the club.
I can't see how the blip will last more than a year or two. Arsenal and Chelsea will sort themselves out, Chelsea having the money to do so, and I won't rule out Arsenal just because.
Man Utd are still second in the league and thats with everything that has gone wrong, they'll be back doing well in next years CL.
Chicken, I wasn't actually agreeing with the comments, I was just saying what I thought they meant.
Player values and transfer are always going to be crazy and unrealiable to say who is better than whom.
I don't think we are weaker as a league, I just think its been a bad year.
31 Moments,
I agree 100% wit your last post. So i'm not sure how we were just debating against eachother 5 minutes ago.
(probably because he is never & will never be fully fit), hence we gave them a gesture (£8m).
but thats what im saying, a flawed player who walks into our team the 3rd best team in England atm
Sorry im not having it that the spanish league is weaker than the premiership. Not a chance.
messiaharry
Sorry im not having it that the spanish league is weaker than the premiership. Not a chance.
=========================
How do you explain the Spanish league teams being consitently weaker in the CL then? If they were stronger, then surely English teams wouldn't have dominated the latter stages more than them.
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PL & CL
Page 2 of 2
posted on 16/2/12
>>but the CL stats
from 2 years ago
all the top talent went to spain, got old, or got crocked.
We were the third tier league for decades, just barely pipped the top spot for a few seasons, then fell back to at least second again.
Us being the 'best' league was an anomoly.
posted on 16/2/12
Bales - well obviously. All whites look the same to me
posted on 16/2/12
We should attract better players now since Spain has increased their tax
-----------------------------------------------------
Think we are on equal tax now
posted on 16/2/12
I think we'd attract better players if we weren't a land without so much rain and cold. Give me a Spanish winter over ours any day. Not so much the summer, too hot then, I don't want to sit in puddles of my own sweat all the time. I think it the culture/food as well draws people more towards Italy and Spain as well.
posted on 16/2/12
messiaharry,
One of our best players is VDV who Real let go for £8m.
====================
I dont mean to be patronising or sarcastic, but what has VDV's value got to do with a comparison between Europe's leagues?
posted on 16/2/12
We're 50% and they're now on 52%, but also Spanish clubs (apart from Barcelona and Madrid) can't pay high wages like we can, the lower tax helped them attract better players but not so much any more.
posted on 16/2/12
Chicken, in the fact they valued him at so little, whereas we'd value him far greater to us. To them he was nothing special with them that he's not worth much. Whereas if we were selling him we'd expect a small fortune for him in the first place. Ergo Spanish league has more better players than PL.
Thats my take on messiah's comment
posted on 16/2/12
Regarding getting the best talent I think City have distorted the market in general. Not only by buying up all the best available talent, but inflating wages beyond the reaches of a sustainable business.
posted on 16/2/12
Sorry dipping in and out of work here, yeah Chicken thats my point. The fact that we value him so highly as a player, he walks onto our team. Totally surplus to Real.
posted on 16/2/12
I think its mainly due to the following reasons:
Man U are ageing and not replaced anyone recently and are in a small decline.
Man C are good enough they just need even more time to gel. They keep buying and disrupting the team.
Chelsea are a mix of the two above, need fresh young players and a strong manager.
Arsenal havent been playing that well in previous year, gradual decline and not spending and replacing quality.
Spurs of course are on the up with young eager talent wanting to make it big and therefore entertained last year in the champs!
posted on 16/2/12
31 Moments,
Firstly, VDV was originally going to Munich for £18m.
Secondly, are you suggesting that a transfer fee determines how good a player is?
If thats the case, we may as well give up now.
For the record:
Modric = £15m approx
Fabregas = £35m approx
Does that mean Fabregas is more than twice the player Modric is?
Your valuation-to-ability theory does not work - not in my book anyway.
posted on 16/2/12
>>Does that mean Fabregas is more than twice the player Modric is?
he is
but your point is correct that transfer fees don't perfectly reflect ability
posted on 16/2/12
Thats a valid point Bales, but that has its own issues.
i think a better example than City is Arsenal. They seem to pay some of their younger/fringe players great wages, but then when they don't pan out to be the player they'd hope they then have trouble shifting them onto another club because tjhey earn a good wage at Arsenal, so why would they leave. City have the same issue with Bridge, but City can afford to have this noose around their neck, Arsenal can't
posted on 16/2/12
No, im not suggesting value of the player is relative to how good they are.
What I am saying is that would we let a player like VDV go for a fee like that (especially a cut price fee). The only way we'd do that is if we had a squad full of great players. Which is exacty what RM have.
posted on 16/2/12
messiaharry,
Sorry dipping in and out of work here, yeah Chicken thats my point. The fact that we value him so highly as a player, he walks onto our team. Totally surplus to Real.
=======================
But what about Pique, who was surplus to Man Utd - now at the heart of the Barca defence?
Robinho, surplus at City. KPB surplus at Spurs etc etc
How does that work?
There is always going to be fall-outs with managers, and other circumstances that leads to players being "surplus". This doesnt mean they are not good enough to get in their team.
Tevez has been "surplus" for ages now, but he would walk into most top clubs throughout Europe. And he would have cost less than Balotelli, Dzeko etc
I'm sorry, but that theory is flawed time & time again.
posted on 16/2/12
31 Moments
As i said, VDV was actually moving for £18m. It broke down at the last minute (probably because he is never & will never be fully fit), hence we gave them a gesture (£8m).
posted on 16/2/12
Ok, well you can use facts to prove anything.
Personally I don't think our league has got weaker, if anything it has got stronger, but this season three teams have had a bad season.
1- Arsenal - haven't replaced ones they have lost
2. Chelsea - Manager and player issues
3. Man Utd - Injuries and the start of several new players at the club.
I can't see how the blip will last more than a year or two. Arsenal and Chelsea will sort themselves out, Chelsea having the money to do so, and I won't rule out Arsenal just because.
Man Utd are still second in the league and thats with everything that has gone wrong, they'll be back doing well in next years CL.
posted on 16/2/12
Chicken, I wasn't actually agreeing with the comments, I was just saying what I thought they meant.
Player values and transfer are always going to be crazy and unrealiable to say who is better than whom.
I don't think we are weaker as a league, I just think its been a bad year.
posted on 16/2/12
31 Moments,
I agree 100% wit your last post. So i'm not sure how we were just debating against eachother 5 minutes ago.
posted on 16/2/12
(probably because he is never & will never be fully fit), hence we gave them a gesture (£8m).
but thats what im saying, a flawed player who walks into our team the 3rd best team in England atm
Sorry im not having it that the spanish league is weaker than the premiership. Not a chance.
posted on 16/2/12
messiaharry
Sorry im not having it that the spanish league is weaker than the premiership. Not a chance.
=========================
How do you explain the Spanish league teams being consitently weaker in the CL then? If they were stronger, then surely English teams wouldn't have dominated the latter stages more than them.
Page 2 of 2