is it now time to acknowledge the gulf between La liga and the PL.Or,was last nights result,bad tactics,poor defensive play,bad ref decisions,players not good enough,arrogance at thinking the EL is not good enough a competition to be graced by the PL champions or something else
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Something else.

The differences between leagues are simply not as big as they're made out to be. It's a coarse exaggeration.

They way people harp on, you'd think that whoever's bottom of the PL would tonk the Romanian champions, but it simply isn't the case.

Now, most of the big PL sides are rebuilding, and encountering clubs from other countries that are pretty well established. Half a decade ago it was the other way round.

You have to look at United, City, Arsenal and probably Chelsea’s failings in the CL this season. For one team to get knocked out due to poor tactics, poor play fair enough. For them all to get knocked out by fairly mediocre opposition. (Let’s be honest, Basel, AC Milan, Napoli have hardly been European giants in the last couple of years have they?)

You take the foreign players out of the PL and you have some very ordinary if not poor teams.

How well a league is doing is always reflected in the national team. Spain are European and World Champions. English haven’t won anything in nearly 50 years. Enough said!

Anybody who actually watches La Liga knows that is it stronger than the PL. Yes the PL is more physical, but technique will always shine through.

I think it's purely sheer arrogance, the media want you to believe the PL is the best, because that's good for it's image, but La Liga is the best. Serie A are improving again and Bundesliga is also full of promise as their youth system is churning through some good players.

I think things look worse than they really are.

We were super poor at home in the CL this year against two teams that we should have beaten but we were carrying a lot of injuries.

As for last night, they came with a game plan and stuck to it, SAF messed about with the team yet again and we paid for it. Ha dhe stuck with his best 11 I think the result would have been different.

As for the guff about La Liga, the top two are so far ahead of the rest it's a joke, and it's merely down to TV money. Much as I like to see my team win, I would never want to see us sell our own TV rights because we would then either have so much cash the gap in our league would get even bigger or the Glazers would merely become even richer.

As for the notion that Spain are doing well internationally based upon their league, I'm not so sure, you'd be better off arguing that they are doing so well as a nation because of the players produced by Barca with the odd player coming from another club.

you're mocking basel when they beat bayern munich another supposed top club

Busbybabes,
Im not sure I would be citing the Bundesliga as a good example of promising youth,not after the other night .

As La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A continue to nurture and reap the rewards of youth systems the PL meanwhile continue to drone on about 'the product' - spot the difference !

As for the guff about La Liga, the top two are so far ahead of the rest it's a joke, and it's merely down to TV money.
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Thismuch is true, but the next comment isn't:

As for the notion that Spain are doing well internationally based upon their league, I'm not so sure, you'd be better off arguing that they are doing so well as a nation because of the players produced by Barca with the odd player coming from another club.
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Athletic has cost €22M to assemble, with Basque-only players.

Try to assemble a team from the entire British Isles on that money and get them to challenge any side United can put out.

The key to Spain's less wealthy clubs being able to remain reasonably competitive is because of the quality in depth all over Spain thanks to a grassroots system that emphasises good technique and works very well.

In the past 15 or so years, Spain's national teams have reached over 20 international youth finals and won over a dozen of them. I can assure you that that hasn't been achieved solely with the 300 or 400 kids at La Masía.

dependable dennis,
If the top 2 are so far ahead,where does this leave the PL.
The team that gave you a lesson in how to play football last night are 30 points behind the leaders.

3/9BigrespectSirBob

Have you seen the Bundesliga the last couple of years? There are some top footballers coming through over there, players with talent English under 21's could only dream of.

I'm afraid even we'd of been on the end of a drumming at the Nou Camp on Wednesday, when Barca play like that they are simply unbeatable, and their young players simply froze, you could see that.

The German national team proves how ignorant your comment is.

we also beat arsenal 8-2 who beat blackburn 7-1 who beat us 2-3.
chelsea beat city 2-1 who beat us 6-1. we've taken 4 pts off chelsea.

we beat ac milan 7-2 who beat arsenal 4-0 then they beat them 3-0.

that is why football is great. anything can happen

sh it happens now stop wumming.

You're not born with a football gene.

I think it highlights the standard of coaching in other countries and the philosophy of said coaches.

Go and watch an under 9's or 10's game at your local footy field. The coaches don't encourage passing in triangles and short first time passing like they do abroad.

They usually put their quickest most skillful player upfront and bang the ball forward and think they are great coaches. And I know all about this because I have coached youth football for nearly 10 years.

Ferguson after losing to-

Basle- "We will definitely learn from this and our mistakes"

Ajax- "We won't be making the same mistakes again"

Bilbao- "We were beaten by a better team"

Perhaps he needs to add "We think we are good but we are not. We have been beaten by ordinary European league sides who outplay us, and outclass us. The gulf in quality, class, technique and skill between these European sides and my side is growing by the year. My players are simply not good enough to compete any more. Thank God it was Bilbao last night and not Barcelona.

sh it happens now stop wumming.
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It's not wumming - this is a healthy debate - why do you feel wummed?

Your own comment seems to imply you're capable of enjoying the game beyond tribal barriers, appreciating the beauty of it and accepting defeat: do just that.

It's passionate, enthralling, fascinating, frustrating, very often a roller-coaster ride, but it's only a game that's there to be enjoyed.

A competitive league makes it an exciting league to watch but doesn’t necessarily mean the league is of any great quality. My local Sunday league is competitive. Anyone can beat anyone on their day. The quality is still pants though!

Busbybabes,
This thread is about Spanish dominance not the Bundesliga.
Yes the German youngsters froze,the Spanish ones didnt ,therein lies the differance.

Gregunited,
Whos wumming,
You want to bury your head in the sand then carry on

Stretford ender,
So are you saying our coaching at grass roots level is wrong?

3/9BigrespectSirBob

Don't tell me what I can and cannot talk about on a sports forum.

The fact is, coaching and developement of football players in England is abysmal.

And what is this Spanish 'dominance' you speak of? A Spanish team has only won the CL 3 times in the last 10 years. Thats not a dominance. The same amount as Italian teams and one more than English.

The point I was trying to make, was the PL is at a stage where Sierie A, Bundesliga, and La Liga are all improving, and it would seem the quality of football in the PL is in decline, both in Europe and when you watch it week in week out.

Of course it is relevent you clown.

all this wumming about how the la liga is miles ahead give me a break.

when chelsea beat valencia 3-0 what were you thinking then?

Athletic has cost €22M to assemble, with Basque-only players.

Try to assemble a team from the entire British Isles on that money and get them to challenge any side United can put out.
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If they are so great whay are they so far behind?

United were caught cold last night and as Mention SAF will mess about with his line up.

Jones isn't good enough to play CM against this pace and Giggs doesn't have the legs, Young still looks less than United class and Evra has looked leggy for weeks. Herandez isn't on form end of story, so in short we didn't play well and like it or not Carrick adds more steadiness to the middle, our home form this season hasn't been great so there are lost of factors.

I think the fact we've reached three CL finals recently might suggest we're not too far behind. Last night was a bad defeat but we've had more than enough of this season. Athletic are a decent team but I'd say we had an off night and SAF picked the wrong team.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens over there, but we won't play as badly as we did last night, and they won't look as good either

Coaching at grass roots levels has been wrong.

But it is all changing. Before the emphasis was on discipline and strength. If you want talented players who are technically gifted more time with the ball = greater technique.

It's a no brainer.

Parents should not be allowed to say a word to the players at a young level. A child from a higher age range got picked by a premier league club and is training with them. The parents take him to training and then have to go and sit in the parents lounge.

They can see what is happening from a height but the players and coaches just get on with it.

Lots of emphasis on ball manipulation now, running with the ball and laying it off quickly, passing x number of times =a point / goal etc.

Busbybabes,
Over the last 15 or so years Spanish teams have reached 20 International youth finals winning over a dozen.That to me,unless I am a clown,is dominance.That is only the grass root system without going into who are current World and cl champions.
You want to crow on about the Bundesliga,then feel free to start your own thread.

3/9BigrespectSirBob

You're an ignorant fool. If you want to talk abuot international statistics, why have Spain only won one World Cup and 2 European Championships in their history?

Again, this is not a dominance. Madrid winning the CL 5 times in a row of whateve is a dominance.

I'm perfectly entitled to bring other discussions into the debate.

Footbal goes in cycles my friend, in 5 years time, it might be Italy, Germany or England we are talking about. In the early part of the last decade, Italian teams were the best, then English, now Spanish, it's how football works.

you're forgetting brazilians