Cheers Mexican.
I don't mind if Chelsea/Liverpool fans want to paint Rio as the worst offender. I'll accept that because he is an idiot for doing what he did. They still won't accept they're player is wrong though.
>>They still won't accept they're player is wrong though.
both Terry and Suarez still maintain they didn't say anything racially offensive.
To be honest I don't know whether they did or not. And no one ever will.
If everyone did what they were initially accused of the 'worst' offenders would be:
1. Suarez - Evra accused him of calling him a ni&ger
2. Terry - effing black c&nt isn't very nice
3. Suarez after Evra got the charged brought but then changed his story to merely "because you are black"
4. Rio and the choc ice reference.
If a black man calls another black man a "choc ice" or "Bounty", for being fake, how can any white man call someone racist in that argument?
Let's not forget racism was forced on blacks by whites and it's a repugnant argument when someone who has never had to deal with racism try and tell a black man or woman the wrongs and rights on the topic, what a cheek. Bet no one in the FA has ever had to walk a mile in Rio's or Coles shoes. I have and i will do til the day i die and to be told by some stuck up prat at the FA what i can and can't say to a fellow black man is over stepping the line on their part!
What next, they'll be telling us it's against their rule to talk patwa or eat curry goat and rice!
This has nothing to do with football this is just pure ignorance on the FA's part!
I think saying who's the worst offender is just another way of saying my club is better than yours and we all need to be bigger than that.
The bottom line is all need punishing by the FA because the language shouldn't be used anyway.
>>I think saying who's the worst offender is just another way of saying my club is better than yours and we all need to be bigger than that.
Actually I had Rio as the 'nicest'
Are you calling me a closet Manc
Are you calling me a closet Manc
--------------------------------------------------
You're many things but you're not that.
I totally agree with your post OP. There is football, and then there is racism whether direct or indirect racism. Both cannot be accpeted as one, even if they - the player, plays for our beloved club.
If one of our players is in the wrong for whatever reason, i cannot support him and ignore the wrongdoings of his actions. I will support him as a player who gives his all on the pitch, but when it comes down to sensitive issues such as this, there is a line not to be crossed.
I'm hopeful that Rio will learn from his mistake and TRY to use social media sites such as Twitter in a more positive approach in future.
Five stars from me.
I'm hopeful that Rio will learn from his mistake and TRY to use social media sites such as Twitter in a more positive approach in future
------
What mistake was that?
>>What mistake was that?
attempting to use use the (very) small, grey wrinkled thing inside his skull for something other than keeping a medium sized, round ball out of the big gate behind him
good posts by the way
not popular but they hit the target
I am struggling to understand the scope of the FA charges against Rio Ferdinand, and therefore the basis of any defence, because the quoted charge doesn't specifically state what if anything was seen as improper about his words.
The quote I've seen reported says: "The allegation is that the player acted in a way which was improper AND/OR bought the game into disrepute by making comments which included a reference to ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race."
If the quote above had simply said "The allegation is that the player acted in a way which was improper and/or brought the game into disrepute" then we could have a debate about whether or not those comments did indeed bring the game into disrepute and how improper they were, but the extra element "and/or bought the game into disrepute BY making comments which included a reference to ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race" means they might be charging Rio for making what they see as racist comments. Of course they also might not be given the presence of the word 'OR' in the statement i.e. it could just be the first half I quoted above.
This latter bit is obviously pretty key if we, and indeed Rio, are going to decide to put up a defence against whether the comments were of a racist nature, and of course this is much more serious.
So were his comments racist?
Clearly it would be perfectly acceptable to say for example 'Ashley Cole is one of the best black players in the England', and yet that would also be "making comments which included a reference to ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race."
What makes a remark racist by definition is one that suggests or shows a belief that one race is superior to another or all others. More literally a 'belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others'
The reason a remark from e.g. a white man that references the victim's different colour e.g. 'black' as a key abusive word in an insult is therefore defined as a racist comment, is because the abuser is identifying the different cultural and hereditary characteristic, using it to insult the victim, and suggesting by his belief it is insulting that he feels it highlights something inferior about the victim or is itself derogatory in nature.
Put another way, if a white guy calls a black guy a 'b1*** pr1**' he's clearly using both words to insult, otherwise he'd just call him a 'pr1**' as he would for example another white guy i.e. if the abuser thinks it's relevant and insulting in this context to call someone 'black', then it suggests he believes it's a lesser/negative colour/race, in this case to his own.
This is why the allegations of racist comments were made against Suarez and Terry.
However, in Rio's case how do his words suggest he feels his colour/race i.e. 'black' is superior to Cole's i.e. 'black'? How do his words suggest he feels Cole's race/skin colour is lesser or a negative characteristic?
Even if we assume Rio was the person who said the words he agreed with on Twitter, and those words meant Cole is black but acted white, how is that racist based on the definition above?
If myself as a white guy started acting in a way that is stereotypical of my favourite black gangsta rapper, a guy I idolise, and my friends (could be black or white) who also love this gangsta rapper asked me 'why are you acting like a black guy from the Bronx, when you're a geeky white guy from the home counties?', how would that be racist?
Were Rio's comments badly considered given the recent problems in the game and the issue at hand? Absolutely, because they continued to highlight negativity in the game, and perpetuated a damaging episode.
Were Rio's comments racist? I don't see how.
Sweet Pea. Your posts, while actually very good are so long that I think my GF is gonna leave me for ignoring her while I read them
Sweetlittlepea will never have said something so true in my opinion. Just wished i could have 5 it!
Rio's comments were letter of the law racist.
But history makes racism a one way street regardless of colour blind principle.
I don't really have an issue with that, it just is because of centuries of discrimination.
What Rio did was, in principle, the same as a white player calling a white person a wigger because they sided with a black person in a racism accusation situation.
Imagine Terry calling Mata a wigger if he sided with Anton in this case. He'd be (rightly) crucified, hung, drawn, quartered and is remains deported.
Colour-blind principle doesn't work that way though.
Having walked in my own (pasty white) feet and shoes, I can accept the violation of principle and understand the double standard. It doesn't bother me.
comment by funrob - Carrickschin (U9808)
posted 38 minutes ago
Sweet Pea. Your posts, while actually very good are so long that I think my GF is gonna leave me for ignoring her while I read them
______________________
It's something my therapist is working on! However he's not getting very far at the moment
Imagine Terry calling Mata a wigger if he sided with Anton in this case. He'd be (rightly) crucified, hung, drawn, quartered and is remains deported.
______________________________
The N word if of course racist, so let's put the connection with that word in your comment to one side as that's not the specific issue in Rio's case, or presumably the actual comparison you were making. Therefore the word aside, the flipped scenario you've raised isn't racist either for the exact same reasons as it isnt the other way round.
Would Terry be suggesting his race/colour is superior in any way to Mata's or that's Mata's is inferior? Would he be suggesting white is superior to black? If anything he'd be suggesting Mata is trying to be emulate a black person, or be seen favourably by black people. How is that racist?
This of course doesn't mean that Terry wouldnt be talking nonsense, and open to the same disrepute charge as Rio for the same reason I mentioned Rio is above imo.
So what you're saying Pea is that racism can only be committed by whites against people with darker skin.
In principle that's very wrong but in reality I wouldn't argue against it.
comment by redconn > (U5676)
posted 6 minutes ago
So what you're saying Pea is that racism can only be committed by whites against people with darker skin.
In principle that's very wrong but in reality I wouldn't argue against it.
_______________________
Absolutely not saying that. My first post was long but also pretty clear
For example blacks can still be racist against whites, or asians against blacks, or blacks against asians etc etc. The definition of racism is not specific to one colour type...
Racism:
1. the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others
2. abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief
Racism
or in a different context racism is:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
What about implying that one race is fake and on the inside actualy a different race as a derogatory remark? Sorry but my missus was called a bounty and I can promise you it was a racist remark as she herself knew what was being said.
I tried to argue the point and was attacked and labelled racist myself by vidichschin and redblackanwhiteside, basically they couldn't prove their point so went on to attack me directly, not very classy, am sure many read my comments defending Evra during his ordeal.
I wouldnt say Rio is racist persay buy he is guilty of insulting Ashley Cole using racist derogatory remarks directed at him and no one else.
He basically used the modern day equivalent of the term uncle tom.
Which is offensive and a racial slur.
none of this is about racism.
it's about stupidity. Rio, JT and Suerez were all stupid.
and under no circumstances should Rio be treated differently because he is black.
Will fergie get the sack if he's guilty? He did say that's why Dalgleash got the sack.
comment by Cityblueloz please get better bar staff at the Etihad! (U6305)
posted 3 hours, 52 minutes ago
What about implying that one race is fake and on the inside actualy a different race as a derogatory remark?
__________________________
Sorry but Rio hasn't implied 'one race is fake' he has implied an individual is fake, and that is key when it comes to racism or racist comments.
The question is whether he implied one race is superior to another in his words and he didn't.
Noone is arguing his words aren't crass/rude/potentially hurtful etc, but they aren't racist by definition imo as explained above.
Carrickature - I think you're absolutely wrong IF you think the 'allegations' against Terry and Suarez are the same in that they also weren't about racist comments.
Making a racist comment (and let's say 'in theory' to avoid a debate about whether both players did it or not) doesn't inherently make you a racist, and it can just be that you were indeed stupid at that moment or are ignorant.
Using an assumption that both Terry and Suarez absolutely said the words many believe in the context many believe for the sake of argument, I suspect the above would have applied to them i.e. they're not racist people, and they didn't make comments that provide evidence of their racism, but they were more likely stupid/ignorant/y made racist comment(s).
Rio was also ignorant/stupid to do what he did, but his case is very different imo as his words aren't racist by definition in my view.
Sorry but Rio hasn't implied 'one race is fake' he has implied an individual is fake, and that is key when it comes to racism or racist comments.
Splitting that hair mighty thin there.
If it isn't implying that he's a fake and thereby questioning his ethnicity then what does the comment mean.
You know as well as the rest of us what Rio meant he thought he was being clever and funny what he was being was racist and derogatory.
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Heads Held High United
Page 3 of 4
posted on 30/7/12
Cheers Mexican.
I don't mind if Chelsea/Liverpool fans want to paint Rio as the worst offender. I'll accept that because he is an idiot for doing what he did. They still won't accept they're player is wrong though.
posted on 30/7/12
>>They still won't accept they're player is wrong though.
both Terry and Suarez still maintain they didn't say anything racially offensive.
To be honest I don't know whether they did or not. And no one ever will.
If everyone did what they were initially accused of the 'worst' offenders would be:
1. Suarez - Evra accused him of calling him a ni&ger
2. Terry - effing black c&nt isn't very nice
3. Suarez after Evra got the charged brought but then changed his story to merely "because you are black"
4. Rio and the choc ice reference.
posted on 30/7/12
If a black man calls another black man a "choc ice" or "Bounty", for being fake, how can any white man call someone racist in that argument?
Let's not forget racism was forced on blacks by whites and it's a repugnant argument when someone who has never had to deal with racism try and tell a black man or woman the wrongs and rights on the topic, what a cheek. Bet no one in the FA has ever had to walk a mile in Rio's or Coles shoes. I have and i will do til the day i die and to be told by some stuck up prat at the FA what i can and can't say to a fellow black man is over stepping the line on their part!
What next, they'll be telling us it's against their rule to talk patwa or eat curry goat and rice!
This has nothing to do with football this is just pure ignorance on the FA's part!
posted on 30/7/12
I think saying who's the worst offender is just another way of saying my club is better than yours and we all need to be bigger than that.
The bottom line is all need punishing by the FA because the language shouldn't be used anyway.
posted on 30/7/12
>>I think saying who's the worst offender is just another way of saying my club is better than yours and we all need to be bigger than that.
Actually I had Rio as the 'nicest'
Are you calling me a closet Manc
posted on 30/7/12
Are you calling me a closet Manc
--------------------------------------------------
You're many things but you're not that.
posted on 31/7/12
I totally agree with your post OP. There is football, and then there is racism whether direct or indirect racism. Both cannot be accpeted as one, even if they - the player, plays for our beloved club.
If one of our players is in the wrong for whatever reason, i cannot support him and ignore the wrongdoings of his actions. I will support him as a player who gives his all on the pitch, but when it comes down to sensitive issues such as this, there is a line not to be crossed.
I'm hopeful that Rio will learn from his mistake and TRY to use social media sites such as Twitter in a more positive approach in future.
Five stars from me.
posted on 31/7/12
I'm hopeful that Rio will learn from his mistake and TRY to use social media sites such as Twitter in a more positive approach in future
------
What mistake was that?
posted on 31/7/12
>>What mistake was that?
attempting to use use the (very) small, grey wrinkled thing inside his skull for something other than keeping a medium sized, round ball out of the big gate behind him
good posts by the way
not popular but they hit the target
posted on 31/7/12
I am struggling to understand the scope of the FA charges against Rio Ferdinand, and therefore the basis of any defence, because the quoted charge doesn't specifically state what if anything was seen as improper about his words.
The quote I've seen reported says: "The allegation is that the player acted in a way which was improper AND/OR bought the game into disrepute by making comments which included a reference to ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race."
If the quote above had simply said "The allegation is that the player acted in a way which was improper and/or brought the game into disrepute" then we could have a debate about whether or not those comments did indeed bring the game into disrepute and how improper they were, but the extra element "and/or bought the game into disrepute BY making comments which included a reference to ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race" means they might be charging Rio for making what they see as racist comments. Of course they also might not be given the presence of the word 'OR' in the statement i.e. it could just be the first half I quoted above.
This latter bit is obviously pretty key if we, and indeed Rio, are going to decide to put up a defence against whether the comments were of a racist nature, and of course this is much more serious.
So were his comments racist?
Clearly it would be perfectly acceptable to say for example 'Ashley Cole is one of the best black players in the England', and yet that would also be "making comments which included a reference to ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race."
What makes a remark racist by definition is one that suggests or shows a belief that one race is superior to another or all others. More literally a 'belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others'
The reason a remark from e.g. a white man that references the victim's different colour e.g. 'black' as a key abusive word in an insult is therefore defined as a racist comment, is because the abuser is identifying the different cultural and hereditary characteristic, using it to insult the victim, and suggesting by his belief it is insulting that he feels it highlights something inferior about the victim or is itself derogatory in nature.
Put another way, if a white guy calls a black guy a 'b1*** pr1**' he's clearly using both words to insult, otherwise he'd just call him a 'pr1**' as he would for example another white guy i.e. if the abuser thinks it's relevant and insulting in this context to call someone 'black', then it suggests he believes it's a lesser/negative colour/race, in this case to his own.
This is why the allegations of racist comments were made against Suarez and Terry.
However, in Rio's case how do his words suggest he feels his colour/race i.e. 'black' is superior to Cole's i.e. 'black'? How do his words suggest he feels Cole's race/skin colour is lesser or a negative characteristic?
Even if we assume Rio was the person who said the words he agreed with on Twitter, and those words meant Cole is black but acted white, how is that racist based on the definition above?
If myself as a white guy started acting in a way that is stereotypical of my favourite black gangsta rapper, a guy I idolise, and my friends (could be black or white) who also love this gangsta rapper asked me 'why are you acting like a black guy from the Bronx, when you're a geeky white guy from the home counties?', how would that be racist?
Were Rio's comments badly considered given the recent problems in the game and the issue at hand? Absolutely, because they continued to highlight negativity in the game, and perpetuated a damaging episode.
Were Rio's comments racist? I don't see how.
posted on 31/7/12
Sweet Pea. Your posts, while actually very good are so long that I think my GF is gonna leave me for ignoring her while I read them
posted on 31/7/12
Sweetlittlepea will never have said something so true in my opinion. Just wished i could have 5 it!
posted on 31/7/12
Rio's comments were letter of the law racist.
But history makes racism a one way street regardless of colour blind principle.
I don't really have an issue with that, it just is because of centuries of discrimination.
What Rio did was, in principle, the same as a white player calling a white person a wigger because they sided with a black person in a racism accusation situation.
Imagine Terry calling Mata a wigger if he sided with Anton in this case. He'd be (rightly) crucified, hung, drawn, quartered and is remains deported.
Colour-blind principle doesn't work that way though.
Having walked in my own (pasty white) feet and shoes, I can accept the violation of principle and understand the double standard. It doesn't bother me.
posted on 31/7/12
comment by funrob - Carrickschin (U9808)
posted 38 minutes ago
Sweet Pea. Your posts, while actually very good are so long that I think my GF is gonna leave me for ignoring her while I read them
______________________
It's something my therapist is working on! However he's not getting very far at the moment
posted on 31/7/12
Imagine Terry calling Mata a wigger if he sided with Anton in this case. He'd be (rightly) crucified, hung, drawn, quartered and is remains deported.
______________________________
The N word if of course racist, so let's put the connection with that word in your comment to one side as that's not the specific issue in Rio's case, or presumably the actual comparison you were making. Therefore the word aside, the flipped scenario you've raised isn't racist either for the exact same reasons as it isnt the other way round.
Would Terry be suggesting his race/colour is superior in any way to Mata's or that's Mata's is inferior? Would he be suggesting white is superior to black? If anything he'd be suggesting Mata is trying to be emulate a black person, or be seen favourably by black people. How is that racist?
This of course doesn't mean that Terry wouldnt be talking nonsense, and open to the same disrepute charge as Rio for the same reason I mentioned Rio is above imo.
posted on 31/7/12
So what you're saying Pea is that racism can only be committed by whites against people with darker skin.
In principle that's very wrong but in reality I wouldn't argue against it.
posted on 31/7/12
1:35
night nights
posted on 31/7/12
comment by redconn > (U5676)
posted 6 minutes ago
So what you're saying Pea is that racism can only be committed by whites against people with darker skin.
In principle that's very wrong but in reality I wouldn't argue against it.
_______________________
Absolutely not saying that. My first post was long but also pretty clear
posted on 31/7/12
For example blacks can still be racist against whites, or asians against blacks, or blacks against asians etc etc. The definition of racism is not specific to one colour type...
Racism:
1. the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others
2. abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief
Racism
or in a different context racism is:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
posted on 31/7/12
What about implying that one race is fake and on the inside actualy a different race as a derogatory remark? Sorry but my missus was called a bounty and I can promise you it was a racist remark as she herself knew what was being said.
I tried to argue the point and was attacked and labelled racist myself by vidichschin and redblackanwhiteside, basically they couldn't prove their point so went on to attack me directly, not very classy, am sure many read my comments defending Evra during his ordeal.
I wouldnt say Rio is racist persay buy he is guilty of insulting Ashley Cole using racist derogatory remarks directed at him and no one else.
posted on 31/7/12
He basically used the modern day equivalent of the term uncle tom.
Which is offensive and a racial slur.
posted on 31/7/12
none of this is about racism.
it's about stupidity. Rio, JT and Suerez were all stupid.
and under no circumstances should Rio be treated differently because he is black.
posted on 31/7/12
Will fergie get the sack if he's guilty? He did say that's why Dalgleash got the sack.
posted on 31/7/12
comment by Cityblueloz please get better bar staff at the Etihad! (U6305)
posted 3 hours, 52 minutes ago
What about implying that one race is fake and on the inside actualy a different race as a derogatory remark?
__________________________
Sorry but Rio hasn't implied 'one race is fake' he has implied an individual is fake, and that is key when it comes to racism or racist comments.
The question is whether he implied one race is superior to another in his words and he didn't.
Noone is arguing his words aren't crass/rude/potentially hurtful etc, but they aren't racist by definition imo as explained above.
Carrickature - I think you're absolutely wrong IF you think the 'allegations' against Terry and Suarez are the same in that they also weren't about racist comments.
Making a racist comment (and let's say 'in theory' to avoid a debate about whether both players did it or not) doesn't inherently make you a racist, and it can just be that you were indeed stupid at that moment or are ignorant.
Using an assumption that both Terry and Suarez absolutely said the words many believe in the context many believe for the sake of argument, I suspect the above would have applied to them i.e. they're not racist people, and they didn't make comments that provide evidence of their racism, but they were more likely stupid/ignorant/y made racist comment(s).
Rio was also ignorant/stupid to do what he did, but his case is very different imo as his words aren't racist by definition in my view.
posted on 31/7/12
Sorry but Rio hasn't implied 'one race is fake' he has implied an individual is fake, and that is key when it comes to racism or racist comments.
Splitting that hair mighty thin there.
If it isn't implying that he's a fake and thereby questioning his ethnicity then what does the comment mean.
You know as well as the rest of us what Rio meant he thought he was being clever and funny what he was being was racist and derogatory.
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