Probably not very many, SWIE. But how many points have we taken where he has started?
I'd say more or similar to when KD has started but N'Gog has played 75% less games than KD.
When KD has played we have taken 21 points from 16 games. = 1.31 points per game.
N'Gog has managed 12 points from 9 games = 1.33 points per game.
So it isn't really fair to say N'Gog hasn't taken his chances. The team has taken the same amount of points as with KD. So either they are both rubbish, are both equally good.
We need to look at the teams played before we give much credence to those stats, dude.
Always the same ...target a player, and make him the scapegoat for the whole team's (and managements) failings; Vast amounts of Bolton goals have come from SKD assists over the years ...but that's something that's always ignored on here .. He won't last forever ... all Legends are forced to call it a day eventually ...but Bolton's problem is that they have nobody who's even close to keeping SKD out of the team for any length of time ..... Maybe that will change, come the transfer window ... but the N'gog's of this world certainly aren't the answer ..... he's just not good enough to hold a regular 1st team place at Bolton ..DF will likely get shut, ASAP, if he's any sense ..
Zkat. Exactly. All good debate and nothing personal.
Rowbot. You're stats disprove your point more than prove it. At a rate of .02 points a game it would take 50 games to gain
Zkat. Exactly. All good debate and nothing personal.
Rowbot. You're stats disprove your point more than prove it. At a rate of .02 points a game it would take 50 games to gain an extra point.
WATOAOW
My point is that KD gets gametime over N'Gog and people say stuff like 'N'Gog hasn't taken his chances'. The stats disprove that, because N'gog is benefiting the team as much - or as little - as KD is currently. So NEITHER of them are taking their chances.
As for looking at who they played against, it's not easy to do, CC. But N'Gog has scored against one out of the 5 games we have played against current promotion candidates, KD hasn't scored against any of them.
in this 4-2-3-1 system i would be starting k davies in the home games and ngog in the away games but i would not be playing them together as they do not blend or put ngog on the wing as he was totally lost there.
I think if we add all the teams positions that KD has played against = 202 and divide it by the number of positions in the league = 24, does that make the answer as the average position of the teams he has played against.
If so, it's 8th.
As for N'Gog, his average position team that he has played against is 4th - using the same maths.
Is that right?
Maybe we should play Sordell?.Actually lets not eh!.
As for Wylde thought he was the next big thing?.I mentioned on here when we signed him "he was a pudding" in the words of a big Rangers fan.
Will be lucky to stay out of the bottom eight at this rate.
This is being over complicated. A guy coming into the prime of his career is not able to oust a guy in the twilight of his career. Is his prime in bwfc SKD tormented Premier league defences. He led bwfc's front line through to top 8 in the league and Europe. All the stats your using are comparing a 36 year old SKD with an early 20s Ngog.
SKD is a legend and Ngog has been a flop to date.
SKD is a legend and Ngog has been a flop to date
***
You're right! But many fans on forums tend to do their level best to snub their heroes, and ' run 'em out of town ' when they can't find anyone else to blame (the disrespectful treatment dished out to Kevin Nolan is a prime example ..and just look how stupid a witch hunt that turned out to be! ).
Ah well ...when Bolton do eventually manage to transfer someone in who's *all-round game* (key phrase) is better than SKD's .... let's give the lad a centre back job - he tackles harder & better than any of the present incumbents!
First of.
KD is not immune to criticism. Just because he is a legend doesn't mean that there is a time that he'll become less effective.
KD started the first 6 or 7 games and that did us a whole lot of good didn't it?
KD has been involved in probably over 90% of our games in the last 2 years. That did us a hell load of good didn't it?
See a pattern emerging here?
He has been involved in the hood tomes, yes, but he has equally been involved in the bad times.
A good manager realises when the right time for change is and that just be coming soon.
If you can decipher that, you're a gud'un.
Ha ha ..nice one TRR
IMO ..If a team is managed badly ...or collectively, plays badly ....no one individual is big enough to compensate for that ...in fact ...it probably drags the best of players down when the whole set up is poor. You get the best out of individuals when the whole team gels ..as it did under BSA ...unfortunately, since he left, the quality of both managers and players at the club has plummeted (as have we - into the Championship) so it's unfair to be singling out our highest profile player imho. It's not about money either .... Megson spent more than anyone, and where did that get us? It's about playing to YOUR strengths (not the oppositions!) and KD was the centrepiece of a BSA side that was tougher, fitter ...and better drilled than most teams they came up against ... instead, we've opted to try and play like Arsenal ...but on an Accrington budget ...and it doesn't work. Put it this way ..if Pulis ever leaves Stoke, and they try to change over to tippy-tappy football ..they'll soon be joinin' us in the lower league.
' Horses for Courses ' .... and I'm not sure DF will be the one to spot that ......
KD started the first 6 or 7 games and that did us a whole lot of good didn't it?
------
Only Eagles got more goals and I am sure he didn't play in defence. How many assists did he get?
We won 3 games when KD started last season, gaining a whole 12 points, if people think who we play up front doesn't affect our defence then they are naive.
If you have a striker with no pace or movement like Davies up front, you can afford to push high up the pitch, which teams do, meaning we are playing in less space, with no output or no chance of getting in behind.
When we play Ngog, the opposition drop deeper, knowing he can exploit this space with his pace, meaning the midfield is less compact allowing us more time and allowing us to actually play football.
We got more points without Davies than with him last year, and he started over half the games..it was different when we have Anelka, Okocha, Stelios etc teams would sit back because of our quality..now they push forward because they know we cannot damage them, meaning our midfield/defence is under constant pressure...and no matter how hard you try, pressure always gives and we are always breached. I would have driven Davies to Sunderland in January, and I wouldn't even have claimed expenses.
It doesn't help the job I am in, I've heard a lot about him as a person...a lot of negative anecdotes..
"If you have a striker with no pace or movement like Davies up front, you can afford to push high up the pitch, which teams do, meaning we are playing in less space, with no output or no chance of getting in behind.
When we play Ngog, the opposition drop deeper, knowing he can exploit this space with his pace, meaning the midfield is less compact allowing us more time and allowing us to actually play football."
Well put HH, makes complete sense. I think we are all in agreement that it is time to phase the guy out and bring through other forwards, Hopefully Sordell and Ngog will flurish together next year.
Sordell and Ngog SHOULD be played together to flourish this year. Sordell is working hard in training, but needs gametime to improve his state of mind. He is a finisher, appears he had a good game for the u21 team. Ngog is our lynchpin, as much as everyone calls him a 'flop' we wouldn't have got as many points as last season without him, due to what I have outlined above. He doesn't get many chances, he creates..if he had Sordell beside him..it could be very good.
I'll never understand why the £4m offered for Davies by Hull was rejected back in 09. Awful management.
I am tired of this Sordell nonsense. He had one good season with Watford gets picked by a poor manager in Pearce for the U21s. Yes SKD should be a sub but this guy has been amazing for us for most of his time here. Sordell has failed to impress any manager we have had. Why on earth paint a picture that is none existent? Give the vendetta against SKD a rest and show the guy respect. Yes he is past his best but does not pick the team. He is a legend and that's the end of it!!!!
Your failure to understand anyone else's disagreement with you never fails to amaze me, Petrov.
There is no vendetta, there is no disrespect. It's just the way we see it.
TRR - this forum is in danger of dying on its feet. So many regular good posters hardly show up anymore.
Personally, I only really do WF's prediction league and the odd comment here and there. The forum is now in the hands of a few megalomaniacs!!!
This thread has been a very good one having said that. Some good debate with varying opinions.
No-one is saying SKD hasn't been a legend/great servant. I am intrigued by HH's comment about him as a person though.
Coyle persevered with SKD for ten games, JP for 3 and DF has continued with the trend.
It clearly isn't working, so why not give Ngog and Sordell a chance. It is the combination that hasn't been tried yet.
TRR, We all know that Kevin Davies is the sole reason why we were relegated and why we are doing so badly in the Championship despite the fact that he is are second highest scorer.
Just try to clear your head and realise there are eleven players in the team. I know it will be hard for you but find a dark corner in a quiet room, sit down and try to clear your head. Once done try and visualise eleven players on a pitch and think how can one player be to blame for a team not doing well. At the same time try to visualise the sitters our forwards and midfield players have missed, then think about Kevin Davies scoring his goals. Think a little longer and try to get your head what I'm getting at.
Removing SKD will not fix the multitude of problems in the side. However a committment to a new strike team of whoever will be a step forward. Even if we have to take our lumps now while the style changes.
Please don't tell me I'll be sitting here arguing about this topic next season. Surely the most ardent SKD fan can't think he will be leading the line next season....or can they. I never put anything past the daft.
I've never understood the obsession with Davies, yes a great servant, gives his all..but let's be honest..he is a poor footballer. No pace, movement, poor first touch etc. too many fans have sentimental glasses on and don't see him for what he is. This is when people say he deserves 'respect'.
I'm sorry, but I won't pretend he is something he isn't because he's been here 10 seasons...and I wouldn't disrespect him by pretending he is something he is not.
The team is being held back IMO, and for the tactical reasons above..I think we play better without him...proven last season, and shown again this season.
People may choose to disagree, and that's fine..but the stats prove my theory correct...as do the performances!
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K.Davies shouldn't play anymore
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posted on 22/11/12
Probably not very many, SWIE. But how many points have we taken where he has started?
I'd say more or similar to when KD has started but N'Gog has played 75% less games than KD.
posted on 22/11/12
When KD has played we have taken 21 points from 16 games. = 1.31 points per game.
N'Gog has managed 12 points from 9 games = 1.33 points per game.
So it isn't really fair to say N'Gog hasn't taken his chances. The team has taken the same amount of points as with KD. So either they are both rubbish, are both equally good.
posted on 22/11/12
We need to look at the teams played before we give much credence to those stats, dude.
posted on 22/11/12
Always the same ...target a player, and make him the scapegoat for the whole team's (and managements) failings; Vast amounts of Bolton goals have come from SKD assists over the years ...but that's something that's always ignored on here .. He won't last forever ... all Legends are forced to call it a day eventually ...but Bolton's problem is that they have nobody who's even close to keeping SKD out of the team for any length of time ..... Maybe that will change, come the transfer window ... but the N'gog's of this world certainly aren't the answer ..... he's just not good enough to hold a regular 1st team place at Bolton ..DF will likely get shut, ASAP, if he's any sense ..
posted on 22/11/12
Zkat. Exactly. All good debate and nothing personal.
Rowbot. You're stats disprove your point more than prove it. At a rate of .02 points a game it would take 50 games to gain
posted on 22/11/12
Zkat. Exactly. All good debate and nothing personal.
Rowbot. You're stats disprove your point more than prove it. At a rate of .02 points a game it would take 50 games to gain an extra point.
posted on 22/11/12
WATOAOW
My point is that KD gets gametime over N'Gog and people say stuff like 'N'Gog hasn't taken his chances'. The stats disprove that, because N'gog is benefiting the team as much - or as little - as KD is currently. So NEITHER of them are taking their chances.
As for looking at who they played against, it's not easy to do, CC. But N'Gog has scored against one out of the 5 games we have played against current promotion candidates, KD hasn't scored against any of them.
posted on 22/11/12
in this 4-2-3-1 system i would be starting k davies in the home games and ngog in the away games but i would not be playing them together as they do not blend or put ngog on the wing as he was totally lost there.
posted on 22/11/12
I think if we add all the teams positions that KD has played against = 202 and divide it by the number of positions in the league = 24, does that make the answer as the average position of the teams he has played against.
If so, it's 8th.
As for N'Gog, his average position team that he has played against is 4th - using the same maths.
Is that right?
posted on 22/11/12
Maybe we should play Sordell?.Actually lets not eh!.
As for Wylde thought he was the next big thing?.I mentioned on here when we signed him "he was a pudding" in the words of a big Rangers fan.
Will be lucky to stay out of the bottom eight at this rate.
posted on 22/11/12
This is being over complicated. A guy coming into the prime of his career is not able to oust a guy in the twilight of his career. Is his prime in bwfc SKD tormented Premier league defences. He led bwfc's front line through to top 8 in the league and Europe. All the stats your using are comparing a 36 year old SKD with an early 20s Ngog.
SKD is a legend and Ngog has been a flop to date.
posted on 22/11/12
SKD is a legend and Ngog has been a flop to date
***
You're right! But many fans on forums tend to do their level best to snub their heroes, and ' run 'em out of town ' when they can't find anyone else to blame (the disrespectful treatment dished out to Kevin Nolan is a prime example ..and just look how stupid a witch hunt that turned out to be! ).
Ah well ...when Bolton do eventually manage to transfer someone in who's *all-round game* (key phrase) is better than SKD's .... let's give the lad a centre back job - he tackles harder & better than any of the present incumbents!
posted on 22/11/12
First of.
KD is not immune to criticism. Just because he is a legend doesn't mean that there is a time that he'll become less effective.
KD started the first 6 or 7 games and that did us a whole lot of good didn't it?
KD has been involved in probably over 90% of our games in the last 2 years. That did us a hell load of good didn't it?
See a pattern emerging here?
He has been involved in the hood tomes, yes, but he has equally been involved in the bad times.
A good manager realises when the right time for change is and that just be coming soon.
posted on 22/11/12
If you can decipher that, you're a gud'un.
posted on 22/11/12
Ha ha ..nice one TRR
IMO ..If a team is managed badly ...or collectively, plays badly ....no one individual is big enough to compensate for that ...in fact ...it probably drags the best of players down when the whole set up is poor. You get the best out of individuals when the whole team gels ..as it did under BSA ...unfortunately, since he left, the quality of both managers and players at the club has plummeted (as have we - into the Championship) so it's unfair to be singling out our highest profile player imho. It's not about money either .... Megson spent more than anyone, and where did that get us? It's about playing to YOUR strengths (not the oppositions!) and KD was the centrepiece of a BSA side that was tougher, fitter ...and better drilled than most teams they came up against ... instead, we've opted to try and play like Arsenal ...but on an Accrington budget ...and it doesn't work. Put it this way ..if Pulis ever leaves Stoke, and they try to change over to tippy-tappy football ..they'll soon be joinin' us in the lower league.
' Horses for Courses ' .... and I'm not sure DF will be the one to spot that ......
posted on 22/11/12
KD started the first 6 or 7 games and that did us a whole lot of good didn't it?
------
Only Eagles got more goals and I am sure he didn't play in defence. How many assists did he get?
posted on 22/11/12
We won 3 games when KD started last season, gaining a whole 12 points, if people think who we play up front doesn't affect our defence then they are naive.
If you have a striker with no pace or movement like Davies up front, you can afford to push high up the pitch, which teams do, meaning we are playing in less space, with no output or no chance of getting in behind.
When we play Ngog, the opposition drop deeper, knowing he can exploit this space with his pace, meaning the midfield is less compact allowing us more time and allowing us to actually play football.
We got more points without Davies than with him last year, and he started over half the games..it was different when we have Anelka, Okocha, Stelios etc teams would sit back because of our quality..now they push forward because they know we cannot damage them, meaning our midfield/defence is under constant pressure...and no matter how hard you try, pressure always gives and we are always breached. I would have driven Davies to Sunderland in January, and I wouldn't even have claimed expenses.
It doesn't help the job I am in, I've heard a lot about him as a person...a lot of negative anecdotes..
posted on 23/11/12
"If you have a striker with no pace or movement like Davies up front, you can afford to push high up the pitch, which teams do, meaning we are playing in less space, with no output or no chance of getting in behind.
When we play Ngog, the opposition drop deeper, knowing he can exploit this space with his pace, meaning the midfield is less compact allowing us more time and allowing us to actually play football."
Well put HH, makes complete sense. I think we are all in agreement that it is time to phase the guy out and bring through other forwards, Hopefully Sordell and Ngog will flurish together next year.
posted on 23/11/12
Sordell and Ngog SHOULD be played together to flourish this year. Sordell is working hard in training, but needs gametime to improve his state of mind. He is a finisher, appears he had a good game for the u21 team. Ngog is our lynchpin, as much as everyone calls him a 'flop' we wouldn't have got as many points as last season without him, due to what I have outlined above. He doesn't get many chances, he creates..if he had Sordell beside him..it could be very good.
I'll never understand why the £4m offered for Davies by Hull was rejected back in 09. Awful management.
posted on 23/11/12
I am tired of this Sordell nonsense. He had one good season with Watford gets picked by a poor manager in Pearce for the U21s. Yes SKD should be a sub but this guy has been amazing for us for most of his time here. Sordell has failed to impress any manager we have had. Why on earth paint a picture that is none existent? Give the vendetta against SKD a rest and show the guy respect. Yes he is past his best but does not pick the team. He is a legend and that's the end of it!!!!
posted on 23/11/12
Your failure to understand anyone else's disagreement with you never fails to amaze me, Petrov.
There is no vendetta, there is no disrespect. It's just the way we see it.
posted on 23/11/12
TRR - this forum is in danger of dying on its feet. So many regular good posters hardly show up anymore.
Personally, I only really do WF's prediction league and the odd comment here and there. The forum is now in the hands of a few megalomaniacs!!!
This thread has been a very good one having said that. Some good debate with varying opinions.
No-one is saying SKD hasn't been a legend/great servant. I am intrigued by HH's comment about him as a person though.
Coyle persevered with SKD for ten games, JP for 3 and DF has continued with the trend.
It clearly isn't working, so why not give Ngog and Sordell a chance. It is the combination that hasn't been tried yet.
posted on 23/11/12
TRR, We all know that Kevin Davies is the sole reason why we were relegated and why we are doing so badly in the Championship despite the fact that he is are second highest scorer.
Just try to clear your head and realise there are eleven players in the team. I know it will be hard for you but find a dark corner in a quiet room, sit down and try to clear your head. Once done try and visualise eleven players on a pitch and think how can one player be to blame for a team not doing well. At the same time try to visualise the sitters our forwards and midfield players have missed, then think about Kevin Davies scoring his goals. Think a little longer and try to get your head what I'm getting at.
posted on 23/11/12
Removing SKD will not fix the multitude of problems in the side. However a committment to a new strike team of whoever will be a step forward. Even if we have to take our lumps now while the style changes.
Please don't tell me I'll be sitting here arguing about this topic next season. Surely the most ardent SKD fan can't think he will be leading the line next season....or can they. I never put anything past the daft.
posted on 23/11/12
I've never understood the obsession with Davies, yes a great servant, gives his all..but let's be honest..he is a poor footballer. No pace, movement, poor first touch etc. too many fans have sentimental glasses on and don't see him for what he is. This is when people say he deserves 'respect'.
I'm sorry, but I won't pretend he is something he isn't because he's been here 10 seasons...and I wouldn't disrespect him by pretending he is something he is not.
The team is being held back IMO, and for the tactical reasons above..I think we play better without him...proven last season, and shown again this season.
People may choose to disagree, and that's fine..but the stats prove my theory correct...as do the performances!
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