Daz ramos is far too fond of that long cross field diagonal pass...he clearly thinks he's ronald koeman...

unlike koeman however is success rate at executing that pass is about 1 in 5

I know how you feel, Jonny Evans does the same.

Pep seems to have taken a lot of urgency out of Bayern's play in the CL this season.

Koeman was a bástard good passer.

he's been getting linked with barca job yday.

Robben: "I expected more from Madrid", "We dominated"

Lahm: "It's nice to play in Madrid and dominate for 90 minutes"

Brainwashed by Pep

Andy, can't see Koeman at Barça. He did a god-awful job at Valencia, took him about a week to lose the dressing room-

He's not really done much at Feyenoord either. Guess if Barca are hellbent on going 'back to their roots' and all that after tata it really limits the managers they can have.

Xabi showed he can still cut it at the top tonight, I've been reaonably critical of him throughout this season but him and Modric were both outstanding along with Pepe and the 2 full backs.

Probably the first time that's ever happened in a big game to be fair, Andy.

Pep's possession brainwashing really is rubbing off, ioag.

It's more the movement off the ball that seems the problem than the possession. I dunno if it just becomes second nature to some players at Barca to do so and the German equivalents are dumb but some of the runs Mandzukic and Schweinsteiger were making tonight when the ball was in crossing positions was just bizarre.

Thiago is a huge miss for them. Kroos is nothing compared to him

Yeah that's true. They also seem really slow at times in their build up.

Obviously they're still fantastic but it's going to be a lot harder for Pep to do what he did with Barca at Bayern as he doesn't have the core of Barca academy players there that will take to it like a duck to water.

When you look back at Pep's away record in the CL, it's blatantly obvious that posession is used mainly for damage limitation.

From that point of view, the term should be re-coined:

tikinaccio.

It's actually such a shame when you think back to Barça's and Spain's best years, because I don't think I've ever seen a more entertaining style of football when it's played with verve and attacking intent, yet when it's about damage limitation, the interest lasts about as much as when you watch a hamster in a wheel.

When you look back at Pep's away record in the CL, it's blatantly obvious that posession is used mainly for damage limitation

tikinaccio.
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<laughing> surely I see your sense of humour (or sarcasm) there.

But objectively, the reason is when one team's so excellent at keeping the ball, then the other team has (almost no choice?) to choose to defend by crowding their home 1/3 field. After the best Barca's years, teams start to know how to defend against, and when the big teams with star players try to play defensively in big matches, then it's hard for Barca (now Bayern) to entertain anymore. And so the ball becomes more floating in "tikinaccio" players' feet in the middle with less harm.

And now we feel it boring/sleepy. No system is perfect then, but it's not Pep's fault he's already changed a bit for Bayern. Wondering what's next for Barca.

On a separate note, regarding Benzema, it really does surprise me how some people who watch a lot of football and who I'd expect to have a little bit more of an open mind when it comes to judging players still adhere to the idea that a no.9's game should be judged almost entirely on his goal return. In a team that plays the way Madrid do it's a totally ridiculous and short-sighted notion, and it toally fails to take into account his movement and vision.

And nevertheless, Benzema's record in the CL league for Madrid now stands at 24 goals and 17 assists in 43 matches. That's almost a goal contribution a game, which is a good return for any striker and a bloody great one for a striker who's expected to play almost an advanced playmaking role for prolific in-cutting wingers to benefit from.

b4fun, no, it isn't sarcasm, I think you'd struggle to find a Madrid supporter who's been a bigger fan of Guardiola's Barça than myself. It actually got to the point where I would sooner make time to watch Barça's CL matches than Madrid's. The point I was making referred to away games exclusively, because at home they were a completely different animal.

In 08/09 they played a very contained style of tiki-taka away to both Lyon and Bayern (at Chelsea it was different, as they did indeed face a parked bus and were chasing a result); the same was true the following year away to Stuttgart. Arsenal allowed them to play a more expressive game but after a mesmerising 1st half, they reverted more to limitation after Ibra's double strike; Inter was another example, where it backfired badly. Arsenal and Barcelona the following year were more of the same. The away leg in Madrid is something I'd rather not go into because that was one of the most embarrasing moments in my life as a Madrid fan.

ioag, yeah agree. Especially about Benzema, I think he gets a really raw deal from some people.

That said, Madrid would be even better with a player like Suarez up front because he can do what Benzema does but better and is brilliant in front of goal.

There are big rumours that Sanchez could be leaving Barca, so I wonder if that could prompt a bidding war for Suarez?

No bother, Valencia will the 2nd leg 5-0.

Henrik will be happy.

Sevilla in a good position to go through now which should all but secure Villarreal's place in Europe.

ioag, no, i'm not all against your opinion, and that's a cool finding (tikinacio) .

Yes, they did use ball possession sometimes purely just to break opponent's rhythm and spirit, and so a form of defence. Examples of Madrid's frustration having no ball in El classicos around 09-11, or even in CL final 2011 (the peak of Pep's Barca), how Man Utd players were frustrated having no possession when they need to chase the score at the end.

But overuse of it is surely a poison to the game, for millions of fans wanting to enjoy a good 90 min., it needs Blatter to wake up have a word with them

I think it got worse not really with Pep, but since when Tito and others took charge, eg the use of 6 midfielders with no striker is like a Hitler-esque illusion. The ball flow and player movement also slowed down then we lost a lot of interest watching them just passing ball around.

Still what i'm quite impressed with Pep's method is how he instills tiki-taka to the whole team. It really needs great discipline from players (think about rebel characters in BM (Ribery/Robben...), team works and confidence on the ball. Watching defenders like Boateng and Dante passing the ball well nowadays, I have some more respect to Pep.

Just read Tito is in a critical condition. Shame

Sad news.

I think it got worse not really with Pep, but since when Tito and others took charge, eg the use of 6 midfielders with no striker is like a Hitler-esque illusion. The ball flow and player movement also slowed down then we lost a lot of interest watching them just passing ball around.

Still what i'm quite impressed with Pep's method is how he instills tiki-taka to the whole team. It really needs great discipline from players (think about rebel characters in BM (Ribery/Robben...), team works and confidence on the ball. Watching defenders like Boateng and Dante passing the ball well nowadays, I have some more respect to Pep.
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I've long been of the opinion that their game started to lose it's cutting edge the moment the pressing side started to trickle out of their game. So many of their goals were based on that: catching tems out of position seconds after they'd regained posession and starting to deploy into an attacking shape. I think that slow decline had already started in Pep's final season, but then under Tito and with Roura's spell as interim coach, it just went completely.

There were a lot of rumours last night about Tito's condition, as he was taken to hospital, but there's been no word from his family as yet, it's all just speculation.

Best wishes of course to him, hope he pulls through.

RIP Tito

Awful news Tito

Come into my arms Andy