comment by The Number 4 Shirt. (U19487)
posted 3 minutes ago
If I owned a club, you couldn't stop me signing for FFP, for for a FAN, who wants to see success and growth and for his club to compete, FFP stops that and locks you in place. It ensures the financial hierarchy in football. This is obvious, and sad.
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Spot on.
If West Brom wanted to be a top four club they would need to spend millions. Now it's restricted-why was it good enough for Chelsea and City but not another club?
I don't like reckless spending either but Chelsea and City have been great for English football.
There are better reforms to be made.
But by protecting clubs they are also hindering them.
As I said, just because there are irresponsible owners of clubs doesn't mean that the responsible ones shouldn't have the opportunity to make major investments to a football team.
It's why I don't by this idea that they're doing it to protect the little old clubs that cannot manage themselves properly financially. Because as mancini said, policing the borrowing would be a better way of doing this than limiting investment allowed.
Maybe it's just the cynic in me, but when a law is being passed that does more good for the big clubs than the small clubs then I don't think that can be put down to cynicism and is just the reality of what it is.
What would.
Why would that have stopped the premier league from doing that exactly? Are you sure you've still got a grasp of the discussion mate? That's a very irrelevant statement.
And for those advocating the organic growth model, assuming Silva, Aguero, Kompany & Yaya came through our academy, can they honestly tell me that these players would still be wearing the City shirt if not for the financial backing of our owners?
This benefits owners.
Take someone like Mike Ashley for example, now his excuse for not spending will be FFP. If Newcastle did spend then they could be where Everton are!
comment by The Number 4 Shirt. (U19487)
posted 13 minutes ago
Sorry Pav, you seem like an intelligent person and I don't mean to insult you or offend you when I say this, but you don't have the understanding of the lower league club fan. FFP damages the ambitious little guy in a big way.
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Fair enough, I haven't taken the time to consider how FFP effects teams like Huddersfield.
I would ask you then, if you could see your team doing a Blackpool - for want of a better example - could you not see them eventually getting a Martinez who could take you to the next level?
comment by Marcelino (U6171)
posted 7 minutes ago
This benefits owners.
Take someone like Mike Ashley for example, now his excuse for not spending will be FFP. If Newcastle did spend then they could be where Everton are!
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And the Newcastle fans have been really excited about this new concept. I mean, you can see the bus parrade they embarked on the other day to confirm this.
If Newcastle did spend then they could be where Everton are!
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If they got a manager like Martinez and gave him time, trusted him to make signings he wanted to improve the team and based the club around his philosophy they could IMO. That's the crux of my point.
How much money have the likes of City and Chelsea wasted - if they'd done it "properly" and taken a few seasons they could've done it on a lot less.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
The Number 4 Shirt
I am acutely aware of the topic and have had an interest in it long before it was a “topic” in the media.
I think that you (like many others) do not see the bigger picture, nor have listened to the clubs themselves and their need for FFP to be implemented successfully.
The PL (like many others) also acknowledged that controls needed to be introduced, and as I mentioned earlier if FFP was so bad, why is the FFP ‘model’ being copied by leagues all over the globe?
Newcastle are a good example. They were in Div two when their previous owners appointed Keegan and pumped the club full of money to compete against the best around.
Then the money stopped flowing and they've gone so far backwards that they're unlikely to ever be in a position to compete financially with us and the big boys in the prem.
If they got a manager like Martinez and gave him time, trusted him to make signings he wanted to improve the team and based the club around his philosophy they could IMO. That's the crux of my point.
________
This is all fairytale stuff though.
Everton as well as they have done are where they are because Utd have had a shocker of a season and Spurs have self combusted giving Everton a chance to sneak in. Once Utd flex their muscles in the transfer market, Everton would probably go back down to the the same level they were under Moyes unless they manage to get some outside investment..
Do you think Everton can manage to keep Barkley and buy Lukaku?
Getting into the top 4 means keeping all your players and adding quality to them. Everton havent got the resources to do that which is why they will be outside the top 4 next season imo
What makes you think Martinez could take them to the next level?
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He's just an example of how brains can overcome finances, doing things right rather than JUST throwing money at it.
Of course money helps but it's not the only factor to being a successful football club.
Everton for me are having a one off season. 2 of their most important players this season are on loan and I certainly can't see lukaku staying there. Barry is a possibility. Deloufeu will more than likely go back to barca especially with their transfer embargo. They will have an interesting summer with the likes of Barkley and Coleman both now in the eyes of the bigger clubs. I personally can't see them having half as good a season next season especially with the added distraction of Europe
Mr Chelsea
I don't think it is a fairytale for a club like Newcastle with a massive following.
Teams like Wigan will always struggle due to not having that massive following. Money can't buy you fans.. putting the horse before the cart should not be encouraged imo - i'm sure Latics fans would rather have a club in 10 years than win he league and go into administration through unsustainable spending.
But it's not a very good example. He wouldn't be able to do what you are proposing with a team like Huddersfield as he's already proven he can't take Wigan to another level.
At Everton he's in a completely different position financially, and he's not even taken them to another level yet - even though he's improved them - and let's see how long he can sustain it because United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs and City are all much richer clubs that are all vying for those top four places, and I don't see Everton being able to compete with that beyond this season.
t's also worth noting that Manchester United bring in far more money than any other club in England, and almost every year in the world as well. Only Real Madrid rival us in that regard, so if United want to buy lots of players one summer, we can.
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Why else do you think Mourinho wanted the man Utd job?
He wouldn't be able to do what you are proposing with a team like Huddersfield as he's already proven he can't take Wigan to another level.
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Wigan had an average attendance of around 15,000 in the PL. I'd argue by winning the FA Cup he took them to another level. Obviously you need income to compete in the top league.. that's just a fact of life, there's nothing unfair about it - if you haven't got the fans to provide the money each week you won't grow.
Pav
I think it is a fairytale for a club like Newcastle or Everton to break into the top 4 and stay there
Keeping your manager, your best players, adding to them and paying them wages inline with other top clubs is too much of an ask without outside investment.
Is there a club outside of the big 4 that has done all of that and cemented their place in the top 4?
"The PL (like many others) also acknowledged that controls needed to be introduced, and as I mentioned earlier if FFP was so bad, why is the FFP ‘model’ being copied by leagues all over the globe?"
From most owners perspective, it's a no brainer. Fans should absolutely hate it though as how many ways do you think revenue can be increased...?
Wigan only grew because of Dave Whelan's money.
He didn't take them to another level in the league, though, and they got relegated because Whelan stopped investing - so basically that one example is actually going against what you're saying as outside investment was the only way they were in the premier league and Martinez wasn't able to keep them in the league, let alone take them to the next level, because the funds weren't there.
So it wouldn't happen with Huddersfield either.
FFP seems like a good idea for the smaller clubs, but what happens when a billionaire wants to buy them? Not such a good idea then.
"He's just an example of how brains can overcome finances, doing things right rather than JUST throwing money at it.
Of course money helps but it's not the only factor to being a successful football club."
Both are needed. You can't solely do it by either.
comment by If United did beers... (U16990)
posted 13 seconds ago
FFP seems like a good idea for the smaller clubs, but what happens when a billionaire wants to buy them? Not such a good idea then.
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If a billionaire did want to buy a smaller club and invest into the infrastructure and grow the club organically then that would be allowed under FFP if im not mistaken.
but do you realise the amount of time if would take to even see the fruits of this labour? Would take years and even then there is no guarantee that bigger clubs wont come on and take your players away .
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posted on 15/4/14
comment by The Number 4 Shirt. (U19487)
posted 3 minutes ago
If I owned a club, you couldn't stop me signing for FFP, for for a FAN, who wants to see success and growth and for his club to compete, FFP stops that and locks you in place. It ensures the financial hierarchy in football. This is obvious, and sad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Spot on.
If West Brom wanted to be a top four club they would need to spend millions. Now it's restricted-why was it good enough for Chelsea and City but not another club?
I don't like reckless spending either but Chelsea and City have been great for English football.
There are better reforms to be made.
posted on 15/4/14
But by protecting clubs they are also hindering them.
As I said, just because there are irresponsible owners of clubs doesn't mean that the responsible ones shouldn't have the opportunity to make major investments to a football team.
It's why I don't by this idea that they're doing it to protect the little old clubs that cannot manage themselves properly financially. Because as mancini said, policing the borrowing would be a better way of doing this than limiting investment allowed.
Maybe it's just the cynic in me, but when a law is being passed that does more good for the big clubs than the small clubs then I don't think that can be put down to cynicism and is just the reality of what it is.
posted on 15/4/14
What would.
Why would that have stopped the premier league from doing that exactly? Are you sure you've still got a grasp of the discussion mate? That's a very irrelevant statement.
posted on 15/4/14
And for those advocating the organic growth model, assuming Silva, Aguero, Kompany & Yaya came through our academy, can they honestly tell me that these players would still be wearing the City shirt if not for the financial backing of our owners?
posted on 15/4/14
This benefits owners.
Take someone like Mike Ashley for example, now his excuse for not spending will be FFP. If Newcastle did spend then they could be where Everton are!
posted on 15/4/14
comment by The Number 4 Shirt. (U19487)
posted 13 minutes ago
Sorry Pav, you seem like an intelligent person and I don't mean to insult you or offend you when I say this, but you don't have the understanding of the lower league club fan. FFP damages the ambitious little guy in a big way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough, I haven't taken the time to consider how FFP effects teams like Huddersfield.
I would ask you then, if you could see your team doing a Blackpool - for want of a better example - could you not see them eventually getting a Martinez who could take you to the next level?
posted on 15/4/14
comment by Marcelino (U6171)
posted 7 minutes ago
This benefits owners.
Take someone like Mike Ashley for example, now his excuse for not spending will be FFP. If Newcastle did spend then they could be where Everton are!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And the Newcastle fans have been really excited about this new concept. I mean, you can see the bus parrade they embarked on the other day to confirm this.
posted on 15/4/14
If Newcastle did spend then they could be where Everton are!
----
If they got a manager like Martinez and gave him time, trusted him to make signings he wanted to improve the team and based the club around his philosophy they could IMO. That's the crux of my point.
How much money have the likes of City and Chelsea wasted - if they'd done it "properly" and taken a few seasons they could've done it on a lot less.
posted on 15/4/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 15/4/14
The Number 4 Shirt
I am acutely aware of the topic and have had an interest in it long before it was a “topic” in the media.
I think that you (like many others) do not see the bigger picture, nor have listened to the clubs themselves and their need for FFP to be implemented successfully.
The PL (like many others) also acknowledged that controls needed to be introduced, and as I mentioned earlier if FFP was so bad, why is the FFP ‘model’ being copied by leagues all over the globe?
posted on 15/4/14
Newcastle are a good example. They were in Div two when their previous owners appointed Keegan and pumped the club full of money to compete against the best around.
Then the money stopped flowing and they've gone so far backwards that they're unlikely to ever be in a position to compete financially with us and the big boys in the prem.
posted on 15/4/14
If they got a manager like Martinez and gave him time, trusted him to make signings he wanted to improve the team and based the club around his philosophy they could IMO. That's the crux of my point.
________
This is all fairytale stuff though.
Everton as well as they have done are where they are because Utd have had a shocker of a season and Spurs have self combusted giving Everton a chance to sneak in. Once Utd flex their muscles in the transfer market, Everton would probably go back down to the the same level they were under Moyes unless they manage to get some outside investment..
Do you think Everton can manage to keep Barkley and buy Lukaku?
Getting into the top 4 means keeping all your players and adding quality to them. Everton havent got the resources to do that which is why they will be outside the top 4 next season imo
posted on 15/4/14
What makes you think Martinez could take them to the next level?
-----
He's just an example of how brains can overcome finances, doing things right rather than JUST throwing money at it.
Of course money helps but it's not the only factor to being a successful football club.
posted on 15/4/14
Everton for me are having a one off season. 2 of their most important players this season are on loan and I certainly can't see lukaku staying there. Barry is a possibility. Deloufeu will more than likely go back to barca especially with their transfer embargo. They will have an interesting summer with the likes of Barkley and Coleman both now in the eyes of the bigger clubs. I personally can't see them having half as good a season next season especially with the added distraction of Europe
posted on 15/4/14
Mr Chelsea
I don't think it is a fairytale for a club like Newcastle with a massive following.
Teams like Wigan will always struggle due to not having that massive following. Money can't buy you fans.. putting the horse before the cart should not be encouraged imo - i'm sure Latics fans would rather have a club in 10 years than win he league and go into administration through unsustainable spending.
posted on 15/4/14
But it's not a very good example. He wouldn't be able to do what you are proposing with a team like Huddersfield as he's already proven he can't take Wigan to another level.
At Everton he's in a completely different position financially, and he's not even taken them to another level yet - even though he's improved them - and let's see how long he can sustain it because United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs and City are all much richer clubs that are all vying for those top four places, and I don't see Everton being able to compete with that beyond this season.
posted on 15/4/14
t's also worth noting that Manchester United bring in far more money than any other club in England, and almost every year in the world as well. Only Real Madrid rival us in that regard, so if United want to buy lots of players one summer, we can.
-------
Why else do you think Mourinho wanted the man Utd job?
posted on 15/4/14
*and Arsenal
posted on 15/4/14
He wouldn't be able to do what you are proposing with a team like Huddersfield as he's already proven he can't take Wigan to another level.
------
Wigan had an average attendance of around 15,000 in the PL. I'd argue by winning the FA Cup he took them to another level. Obviously you need income to compete in the top league.. that's just a fact of life, there's nothing unfair about it - if you haven't got the fans to provide the money each week you won't grow.
posted on 15/4/14
Pav
I think it is a fairytale for a club like Newcastle or Everton to break into the top 4 and stay there
Keeping your manager, your best players, adding to them and paying them wages inline with other top clubs is too much of an ask without outside investment.
Is there a club outside of the big 4 that has done all of that and cemented their place in the top 4?
posted on 15/4/14
"The PL (like many others) also acknowledged that controls needed to be introduced, and as I mentioned earlier if FFP was so bad, why is the FFP ‘model’ being copied by leagues all over the globe?"
From most owners perspective, it's a no brainer. Fans should absolutely hate it though as how many ways do you think revenue can be increased...?
posted on 15/4/14
Wigan only grew because of Dave Whelan's money.
He didn't take them to another level in the league, though, and they got relegated because Whelan stopped investing - so basically that one example is actually going against what you're saying as outside investment was the only way they were in the premier league and Martinez wasn't able to keep them in the league, let alone take them to the next level, because the funds weren't there.
So it wouldn't happen with Huddersfield either.
posted on 15/4/14
FFP seems like a good idea for the smaller clubs, but what happens when a billionaire wants to buy them? Not such a good idea then.
posted on 15/4/14
"He's just an example of how brains can overcome finances, doing things right rather than JUST throwing money at it.
Of course money helps but it's not the only factor to being a successful football club."
Both are needed. You can't solely do it by either.
posted on 15/4/14
comment by If United did beers... (U16990)
posted 13 seconds ago
FFP seems like a good idea for the smaller clubs, but what happens when a billionaire wants to buy them? Not such a good idea then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If a billionaire did want to buy a smaller club and invest into the infrastructure and grow the club organically then that would be allowed under FFP if im not mistaken.
but do you realise the amount of time if would take to even see the fruits of this labour? Would take years and even then there is no guarantee that bigger clubs wont come on and take your players away .
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