But on this thread all you have done is reference any terrorism and justify it, ignoring the fact it is aimed at civilians.

Whilst you justify the death of civilians you will rightly be seen as an idiot.

Any blame laid at Israel has to also be laid at Hamas and its terror groups.

Both are fecking idiots, not one or the other.

Hamas are good people

Firstly as I have pointed out previously I am not sure how much of a ceasefire it is when one side will not actually be ceasing fire...

That is kind of besides the point though, whether or not they are engaging in fire with the Palestinians or not the Israelis will still capture Palestinians that are engaged in fighting against them, I don't see how it can possibly be wrong the other way around.

The US president certainly wouldn't call the Israeli's capturing a Palestinian engaged in fighting barbaric

Out of interest Cinci how are this group of badly armed rabble supposed to resist one of the worlds most powerful militaries?

All line up in a field and get blown to pieces?!

Where is the evidence that the ceasefire was broken by Hamas? From what I've read the IDF claims the attack and capture of its soldier was at 9.30am, an hour and a half into it, while Qassam Brigades claims it was at 7am, an hour before.

comment by SAF_The_Legend-FreePalestine (U5768)
posted 1 minute ago
Firstly as I have pointed out previously I am not sure how much of a ceasefire it is when one side will not actually be ceasing fire...

That is kind of besides the point though, whether or not they are engaging in fire with the Palestinians or not the Israelis will still capture Palestinians that are engaged in fighting against them, I don't see how it can possibly be wrong the other way around.

The US president certainly wouldn't call the Israeli's capturing a Palestinian engaged in fighting barbaric

Out of interest Cinci how are this group of badly armed rabble supposed to resist one of the worlds most powerful militaries?

All line up in a field and get blown to pieces?!
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They didn't need to resist them, but for some reason you ignore the fact they co-existed and could cross the boundaries to work and had good supplies until they decided to start bombing buses and markets.

Oh and that coincided with Hamas arrival on the scene.

Well done Hamas

But on this thread all you have done is reference any terrorism and justify it, ignoring the fact it is aimed at civilians.

Whilst you justify the death of civilians you will rightly be seen as an idiot.

Any blame laid at Israel has to also be laid at Hamas and its terror groups.

Both are fecking idiots, not one or the other.
..............................................

TBH Cinci you are the one who has been supporting Israel and spouting their propaganda here.

They are the biggest civilian killers in this conflict.

They are also the occupying forces who force the Palestinians to live in miserable conditions in poverty.

They are the real idiots here for thinking they can push people to the brink then refuse to negotiate with them because surprise surprise you push people to the brink and they become extremists.

I support Israel pulling back and trying to make a fair peace rather than trying to blow the Palestinians away so they can get everything they want.

That simply isn't going to work though and people like you who don't understand the situation and mindlessly support their actions are the reason international pressure hasn't built up on the Israeli's.

The longer people with views like you are around the longer the Israeli's can continue to do as they please with very little negative reaction from the world at large!

comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 2 minutes ago
Where is the evidence that the ceasefire was broken by Hamas? From what I've read the IDF claims the attack and capture of its soldier was at 9.30am, an hour and a half into it, while Qassam Brigades claims it was at 7am, an hour before.
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Accounts suggest it was an attack on soldiers destroying a tunnel system, 2 Israeli soldiers were killed in the raid also.

And as above, Hamas have said there was miscommunication.

But on this thread all you have done is reference any terrorism and justify it, ignoring the fact it is aimed at civilians.

Whilst you justify the death of civilians you will rightly be seen as an idiot.

Any blame laid at Israel has to also be laid at Hamas and its terror groups.

Both are fecking idiots, not one or the other.
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No not justifying it (I would have thought that equating the IDF's behaviour to Hamas' would suggest I wasn't favouring either party), just trying to explain it as a typical response to subjugation and denying of their rights. It's not right but they don't have the means to engage in traditional warfare (which terrorises populations just as much), for them it's the only weapon they have to fight back.

Not supporting Israel at all, just not listening to your wet excuses for terrorism.

They co-existed, then terrorism destroyed that.

They didn't need to resist them, but for some reason you ignore the fact they co-existed and could cross the boundaries to work and had good supplies until they decided to start bombing buses and markets.
.....................................................

Then why if everything was brilliant and hunky dory didn't the Israeli's start giving back the occupied land there and then?

You seem to have some crazy revisionist history were everyone was wonderful and peaceful a few years back. The Palestinians had pretty miserable conditions then as well, they had been thrown off their land and had limited access to basic resources necessary for survival and the ones necessary to build a functioning economy. They survived by being Israel's cleaners and low paid workers!

On their own land no less!

Just like apartheid South Africa this place was no paradise before the terrorism started, the terrorism started as a resistance because of the occupation and the unfair conditions.

Terrorism just like in apartheid South Africa was not the problem, it was the reaction to it!

Not supporting Israel at all, just not listening to your wet excuses for terrorism.

They co-existed, then terrorism destroyed that.
................................................

Terrorism was around between the Palestinians and Israeli's for years before that you idiot!

Do you have a clue what you are talking about?!?

comment by SAF_The_Legend-FreePalestine (U5768)
posted 4 seconds ago
Not supporting Israel at all, just not listening to your wet excuses for terrorism.

They co-existed, then terrorism destroyed that.
................................................

Terrorism was around between the Palestinians and Israeli's for years before that you idiot!

Do you have a clue what you are talking about?!?
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So it didn't escalate badly in the 90s?

Israel was in the process of working things out, then an extremist killed Rabin, you see, extremism causes the problem yet again.

Extremism rarely works and certainly won't in this conflict.

Whilst people think like you this conflict won't end, that's a fact.

Accounts suggest it was an attack on soldiers destroying a tunnel system, 2 Israeli soldiers were killed in the raid also.

And as above, Hamas have said there was miscommunication.
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I'm not arguing the actual events, but the timing. The ceasefire came into effect at 8am, both sides claim the attack was either side of that time. So how did you come to the conclusion that the IDF version of events is the correct one?

comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 47 seconds ago
Accounts suggest it was an attack on soldiers destroying a tunnel system, 2 Israeli soldiers were killed in the raid also.

And as above, Hamas have said there was miscommunication.
--------------------------
I'm not arguing the actual events, but the timing. The ceasefire came into effect at 8am, both sides claim the attack was either side of that time. So how did you come to the conclusion that the IDF version of events is the correct one?
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I haven't come to that conclusion?

I have come to the conclusion that when sides negotiate a cease fire, which was known to come into effect at 8am some 12 hours previous, a kidnappings is not going to help that situation.

So how did you come to the conclusion that the IDF version of events is the correct one?
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Israeli PR is much smoother...

Also Cinci if you want to take it back to a start date why don't we go back before the mass Jewish immigration and formation of Israel. There really was a long period of peace back then.

Then suddenly mass Jewish immigration, Israel formed and violence ever since....

I guess that must just be because the Palestinians are a very violent people... there just didn't happen to be people already living there for them to kill for no reason, as we well know Israel and the Jewish immigrants are complete innocents in the situation!

Who has ever defended the decision to dump Israel there?

That's not the point, the point is solving the crisis and needless deaths.

So it didn't escalate badly in the 90s?

Israel was in the process of working things out, then an extremist killed Rabin, you see, extremism causes the problem yet again.

Extremism rarely works and certainly won't in this conflict.

Whilst people think like you this conflict won't end, that's a fact.
.......................................

The situation for the Palestinians was crappy before the 90's!

It wasn't even Hamas that called the intifada!

It was the PLO under Arafat!

_____________________
First Intifada
During the 1980s, Arafat received financial assistance from Libya, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, which allowed him to reconstruct the badly battered PLO. This was particularly useful during the First Intifada in December 1987, which began as an uprising of Palestinians against the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The word Intifada in Arabic is literally translated as "tremor", however, it is generally defined as an uprising or revolt.[72]
____________________________

From wiki!

Maybe you should actually learn some basic facts before you go spouting your mouth off!!

By the way Israel's tactic of fighting extremism militarily has about as much foundation in fact as half of the rubbish you spout off on here without a clue!!

Just like the I RA in britain the only way to fight them is to deprive them off recruits, to negotiate reasonable peace with them...

Unless of course Israel doesn't want peace because it just wants to keep taking more land, in which case you are right, Israel should keep doing what it is doing!

I haven't come to that conclusion?

I have come to the conclusion that when sides negotiate a cease fire, which was known to come into effect at 8am some 12 hours previous, a kidnappings is not going to help that situation.
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But you implied that Hamas were to blame for breaking the ceasefire (or at least that's what I understood from it), while both sides dispute this. In all the previous ceasefires, both sides have continued to attack til up the agreed start point, so I don't see how this incident is any different.

Who has ever defended the decision to dump Israel there?

That's not the point, the point is solving the crisis and needless deaths.
..................................................

If you are really interested in solving the problem then you should also support international pressure on Israel.

Quite simply you are not going to bomb the Palestinians out of extremism, even the worlds dumbest person could probably tell you that blowing up a civilian population that is already extreme is only going to make them more extreme...

Do you at the very least accept this basic fact?

comment by renoog (U4449)
posted 1 minute ago
I haven't come to that conclusion?

I have come to the conclusion that when sides negotiate a cease fire, which was known to come into effect at 8am some 12 hours previous, a kidnappings is not going to help that situation.
-----------------
But you implied that Hamas were to blame for breaking the ceasefire (or at least that's what I understood from it), while both sides dispute this. In all the previous ceasefires, both sides have continued to attack til up the agreed start point, so I don't see how this incident is any different.
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so you don't think the kidnapping ended the ceasefire? Who did the kidnapping?

Hamas don't even doubt why the ceasefire ended, and it wasn't them directly involved in the ceasefire anyway.

comment by SAF_The_Legend-FreePalestine (U5768)
posted 2 minutes ago
Who has ever defended the decision to dump Israel there?

That's not the point, the point is solving the crisis and needless deaths.
..................................................

If you are really interested in solving the problem then you should also support international pressure on Israel.

Quite simply you are not going to bomb the Palestinians out of extremism, even the worlds dumbest person could probably tell you that blowing up a civilian population that is already extreme is only going to make them more extreme...

Do you at the very least accept this basic fact?
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SAF, i dont defend Israel, but i will counter your claims to justify terrorism.

Both are clowns, i have been clear on that from the start.

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

SAF, i dont defend Israel, but i will counter your claims to justify terrorism.

Both are clowns, i have been clear on that from the start.
..........................................

Any form of fightback from the Palestinians would be terrorism simply on the basis they are not a country with an official army...

So you don't support Israel but you don't believe Palestinians should be able to defend themselves what so ever (remember any defence is terrorism)

Remembering also that the occupation continued for a long time with minimal terrorism and the Israeli's still showed no interest in giving the Palestinians a fair deal.

so you don't think the kidnapping ended the ceasefire? Who did the kidnapping?

Hamas don't even doubt why the ceasefire ended, and it wasn't them directly involved in the ceasefire anyway.
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The point is the ceasefire hadn't begun according to the Qassam Brigades version of events (which there is no reason to believe any more or less than IDF's). The whole point of a ceasefire is to end hostilities for an agreed amount of time; by definition before and after the ceasefire there will be hostilities! If there weren't then there wouldn't be any war and no reason for a ceasefire in the first place!