comment by SAF_The_Legend-FreePalestine (U5768)
posted 5 minutes ago
SAF, i dont defend Israel, but i will counter your claims to justify terrorism.

Both are clowns, i have been clear on that from the start.
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Any form of fightback from the Palestinians would be terrorism simply on the basis they are not a country with an official army...

So you don't support Israel but you don't believe Palestinians should be able to defend themselves what so ever (remember any defence is terrorism)

Remembering also that the occupation continued for a long time with minimal terrorism and the Israeli's still showed no interest in giving the Palestinians a fair deal.
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No, fighting back is fine, but you guys lambast Israel rocket attacks.......Hamas have fired many many rockets, Israel is just better equipped with IronDome, those rockets would have killed civilians in the exact same manner, why would i support one, not the other?

No, fighting back is fine, but you guys lambast Israel rocket attacks.......Hamas have fired many many rockets, Israel is just better equipped with IronDome, those rockets would have killed civilians in the exact same manner, why would i support one, not the other?
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Because one (Israel) is the one who committed the original wrong, who for years despite little fightback from the Palestinians kept them firmly under their boot (in terms of resource share, the fertile land ect.)

Because one of them, Israel has the power to do something about the situation. The Palestinians already for years provided little fightback and the situation did not improve from them. Israel on the other hand has never actually given the Palestinians a fair peace...

And you know what it would work as well!

It becomes incredibly difficult for a terrorist organisation to keep recruiting when you take away their reason for recruiting. How do you think the I RA would fare trying to recruit in Ireland these days in comparison to the height of the troubles?!

The answer is they would struggle immensely because the main things which drove people to join the I RA have faded away.

You really want to stop Hamas that is the way to do it!

I do not think the Palestinians are all saints or anything stupid like that but at least a half basic understanding of the situation shows that the ones with all the power here are the Israeli's they are the only ones who can doing anything about it!

By trying to create an equal guilt between the two parties you are very much backing the Israeli's as that is not the truth of the situation at all!

Basically I want Hamas to die as well, but even someone with only one iota of common sense will tell you. You can not do that with guns and bombs!

That basically echoes my thoughts on the conflict too. Terrorism = legitimate grievances addressed through illegitimate means. You address those grievances and the terrorism stops. Trying to maintain neutrality in such a situation is not a just stance to take, it's important to tackle the root cause, especially when that root cause is ongoing. Going back to a state of 'peace' only favours one side in this conflict.

How many examples of peace deals that have favoured the loser?

The Germans got a very raw deal after ww2 but they took it and there is no talk of revanchism.

There is no chance of pre 67 borders and that is one of the stumbling blocks for peace.


For what it's worth, settlers are another.

There is no chance of pre 67 borders and that is one of the stumbling blocks for peace.
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Agreed, and Hamas' recent proposal for a 10 year truce did not include this as one of the conditions. But I do think it's reasonable to expect Israel to dismantle all settlements in the West Bank.

Yeah I don't think anyone would expect pre '67 borders, giving them all the spoils of their conquest until that point would still be pretty good though.

People tend to complicate the issue. If everyone in the region wanted peace there would be peace. It's obvious the Israeli's do not want or intend to make any peace. They are happy to go on stealing land, slaughtering innocent people and limiting the amount of water people can use. If they can do these things and have no qualms about it why would a small thing like peace bother them.

TBH RR it is very much what I think.

I am not saying the situation is simple but if the Israeli's really wanted peace they could make the Palestinians and good offer that would hugely improve their lives. The international community would probably be quite happy to help Palestine get a good functioning economy.

Give them a fair deal, a decent share of the water and other resources required for survival and a decent economy. Stop killing them in such big numbers.

Then if you did all that how the hell would the terrorists manage to recruit people... take Ireland as an example. How easy is it now to recruit terrorists in Ireland compared to the height of the troubles.

The fact the Israeli's have not done this tells me the parties in power in the Israeli parliament are far more interested in hogging the resources and taking more land than they are peace.

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It doesn't matter what Hamas or the Palestinian people do, the Israeli's simply do not want peace. To keep hearing people quote about the destruction of Israel is becoming tiresome. There has been no peace for the last twenty years, yet Hamas has only just come to power.

yes the old classic... the hardcore extremists in the I RA just gave up one day because they were lovely blokes all along. Only then did the UK start making some moves towards peace...

So Cal you going to bomb the extremism out of the Palestinians?

You going to make them so poor that they suddenly become moderates?

You going to reduce them to minimal food and water levels to the point where they snap and suddenly become moderate?

It sounds like a good recipe for making them more extreme but hell what do I know clearly the Israeli's have been doing a great job of it.

BTW completely unrelated but my friend is quite annoyed at me and wants revenge so I am going to punch him in the face until he accepts that there is nothing to be annoyed at me for

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comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 3 minutes ago
The I.R.A eventually realised that the troubles only brought death and suffering to the people of Northern Ireland.If you think otherwise I pity you.Goodnight.
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Don't just write that rubbish and run off...

Although I guess you can't actually defend that rubbish. You seem to know a little bit about the Israeli-Palestine situation but based on that comment you now absolutely nothing about the Irish-British one....

Also I liked how you ignored the rest of the post...

Ill take that as a yes, your going to starve, bomb and poverty a people out of extremism... excellent plan

Comment deleted by Site Moderator

comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 11 seconds ago
I am going to bed.But I know a lot about both conflicts.You ought to read a bit more about Northern Ireland because you clearly don't.
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Based on our interactions so far I am going to assume your bias has caused you to read that one in a way that favoured your current world view.

You would have to at least admit once the British gave them less reason to be extremists that made it much harder for the terrorists to recruit?

Or do I need to read a bit more there as well?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v5WlY8Uf5U&feature=youtu.be
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Russel brand, not that I like him. Seems to actually understand what a terrorist is... from about 7.30 onwards....

Hamas need to disband at the end of the day and let a new, renamed,rebranded party take the reins.

The world view of Hamas is in the same category as al quaeda. Premeditated women and children killers as chosen targets.

No amount of PR can undo that.

TKT It was originally the PLO (terrorists too) that Hamas took over from. Assuming no big change the next ones would be terrorists too.

If it follows the current pattern whoever actually replaced Hamas would be more extreme than Hamas, with Hamas being more extreme than the PLO.

Not saying that you are wrong they could certainly use (at the very least) a rebranding. Israeli side has always had much smarter PR.

You can't really change the squad up too much, it's a small pool of people.

They need rebranding and the Hamas brand is spoilt beyond redemption.

That was my point is all.

TBH what Hamas, or preferably the Palestinians in general really need, is to be more like this...

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Anyone who has read more than a handful of U.S. news reports on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict knows what these orthodoxies are. No historical context regarding the illegality of Israel’s colonizing settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip is provided. Israel retaliates, while Palestinians provoke. Yasser Arafat inexplicably turned down Ehud Barak’s unprecedented generous offer and incited the current intifada out of spite towards Israel. The United States is an impartial peace broker. Relative quiet exists when it’s only Palestinians who are dying. What is missing from the coverage is what it means for Palestinians to endure checkpoints and curfews, as well as Israeli voices of dissent, and the billions of dollars the U.S. gives to Israel each year. But why are these conventions so pervasive in the media?

Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land presents a different answer to this question than the standard pro-Palestinian response pointing to the AIPAC/Israeli lobby influence. The film illustrates the series of filters “through which the news must travel before it emerges in the voices of news anchors” as an inverted pyramid. The largest filter is the international business interests of the corporations who own the media, then the political elites who have the power to grant access to reporters, the third filter being Israel’s PR campaign and consulates, and the private American organizations (both Christian and Jewish) like AIPAC, and lastly watchdog organizations like CAMERA.
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If they could level the PR playing field then I think even the public opinion of Israel's biggest ally might start wavering. Israel might even have to start considering peace if it got to that stage...

Yeah sorry TKT didn't mean to sound like I was disagreeing with you, you were right. Hamas reputation worldwide is dirt.

No need to apologise, I got it.