Ripley
I admire you so much for trying to find reason in a place where reason does not appear to exist.
I see it for what it is, I just think it's worthwhile. I don't need to debate the wider context around trophies, club sizes, I just need to do the logical thing which is measure the outcome against the effort expended.
90 minutes of competive football expended for a confidence boost, a nice shield, and a good day out.
Not worthwhile?
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Sigh. Dictionary definitions now?
Put it into context. Real context. CL, League, FA Cup, League Cup - actual competitions where many teams take part. Not a one off game which is contested between two teams who won much more important trophies the previous season.
A one off game. Not a major trophy. Not a worthwhile trophy. Yes, as a game itself it serves as a curtain raiser, and raises money for charity, but as a trophy to be won, it means nothing. The value of the game doesn't lie in the trophy that is won at the end of it.
The value of something being worthwhile is measured against the effort expended ripley. If it wasn't a worthwhile trophy nobody would have turned up.
I admire you so much for trying to find reason in a place where reason does not appear to exist.
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I just don't understand Vito's point. I've said that Arsenal were the better team today. That Arsenal deserved to win. The value of the game lies in the game itself, not the trophy handed out at the end of it.
comment by RipleysCat (U1862)
posted 12 seconds ago
I admire you so much for trying to find reason in a place where reason does not appear to exist.
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I just don't understand Vito's point. I've said that Arsenal were the better team today. That Arsenal deserved to win. The value of the game lies in the game itself, not the trophy handed out at the end of it.
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I think his point is just have the last word. Not much of what he has said carries any coherence.
i.e. "The value of something being worthwhile is measured against the effort expended" - is he talking here about an empirical fact or the example buying a jackpot winning lottery ticket.
comment by RipleysCat (U1862)
posted 1 minute ago
I admire you so much for trying to find reason in a place where reason does not appear to exist.
--------------
I just don't understand Vito's point. I've said that Arsenal were the better team today. That Arsenal deserved to win. The value of the game lies in the game itself, not the trophy handed out at the end of it.
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I gave you a precise definition of worthwhile. What don't you understand exactly about this shiny shield being worthy of 90 minutes of effort?
If it wasn't a worthwhile trophy nobody would have turned up.
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What? I say again. What?
Context Vito. It's all about context. It's a curtain raiser. The two teams invited to take part are more than happy to do so. It's a charity event. That's where its value lies. Not as a worthwhile trophy that players and clubs are vying to win. Clubs and players want to win the league, the FA Cup, the CL. Has any player ever during a summer said that they have joined a club because that club is playing in the community shield and that's a "competition" that they have always wanted to win?
Never.
You'd certainly rather win it than not, as with any game your team plays whether competitive or not.
But in the grand scheme of things it means absolutely nothing, and I completely disagree with the Arsenal giving out a 'statement of intent' headline being carried by the BBC.
What don't you understand exactly about this shiny shield being worthy of 90 minutes of effort?
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I understand that those 90 minutes worth of effort mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the actual competitions that actually mean something.
comment by RipleysCat (U1862)
posted 45 seconds ago
What don't you understand exactly about this shiny shield being worthy of 90 minutes of effort?
---------------
I understand that those 90 minutes worth of effort mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the actual competitions that actually mean something.
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Only you've already admitted it's a good indicator of who is going to go on to win something and a confidence boost.
You appear to be changing contexts according to whatever suits your definition of worthwhile.
I don't really get why the argument is even happening. Most fans attach less importance to the community shield as they do any pl game, the ones that don't tend to be the clubs that know they won't be fighting for domestic honours at the end of the season.
It had the same rules as a preseason friendly, not a competitive fixture. Would managers, players and fans rather win it? Of course they would, it's an expensive day out and they want to see their team do well. If they don't though, people really aren't that bothered than they would be in other fixtures.
"Only you've already admitted it's a good indicator of who is going to go on to win something and a confidence boost."
I specifically said it is NOT a good indicator of who is going to go on and win something. To quote my earlier post: "Except that it simply is not a good indicator."
I did say it can be a confidence booster. But so too can a pre-season friendly.
I've not once changed my context in regards to my definition of worthwhile. You're reading something that isn't there. I have specifically said that in context of major competitions, the CS is not a worthwhile competition. It means nothing. It's not a major honour. It's not something that clubs have ambitions of winning. It's a pre-cursor - a curtain raiser. It's nothing but a tradition. And it means nothing in terms of actual competition.
Do you understand my point yet? Or are you going to continue with this ridiculous discussion and attempt to put words into my mouth?
It had the same rules as a preseason friendly, not a competitive fixture. Would managers, players and fans rather win it? Of course they would, it's an expensive day out and they want to see their team do well. If they don't though, people really aren't that bothered than they would be in other fixtures.
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That pretty much sums it up.
meltonblue
"It had the same rules as a preseason friendly, not a competitive fixture."
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In what sense are the rules the same as a pre-season friendly? Anyway, anybody who loses a match of football will do their utmost to belittle the competition. Still, I would be worried if I were City fan tbh because City were absolutely shambolic today, just 7 days before the start of the new season. Both teams missed key players so that's no excuse.
In what sense are the rules the same as a pre-season friendly?
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Obvious one being the number of substitutions. Arsenal made 6 substitutions today. City making 5.
it's worthwhile from a preparation point of view rather than the trophy being worthwhile. Put it this way would you rather win the trophy and lose the first league game or the other way around?
If you want context, David Moyes won us the Charity Shield, giving us no indication of the 9 months of abject surrender that lay ahead.
Ripley, you need to get out of your house more / laid.
It's not a trophy, it's a shield.
Vito, why are you wasting your time with this philosophical nonsense debate. The points of this argument are pathetic as is the running commentary. Ripley is a little virgin who is determined to win at least something today after his team were embarrassed and he got spanked on FIFA.
The reality is, City and their fans thought they'd walk all over us today and are feeling a little bit upset and surprised at the 3-0 humiliation. There's no need to be mentioning how many players were missing for you blue bumboys - Despite the commentators failing to mention it on our behalf, we too missed many key players.
The argument is happening because Ripley made a bold statement about something not being worthwhile, while assuming there is a commonly accepted context for that statement.
While he continues to insist his context is the only possible one, he doesn't appear to understand that from several others it's a worthwhile thing to win. I've even provided a link to where it's been debated as such. I don't have any more to add really, as I didn't make the statement in the first place.
Congratulations to arsenal the better team on the day.
Let's see what happens in the season when you have more than city to worry about.
As Ripley said, the fact that managers can make double the amount of changes.
In terms of the game itself, yes we were bad (although improved when Silva came on). Neither team were great, Arsenal were good but we still could have scored, the whole game was top championship/low pl standard at best, as it always is.
Am I worried about the start of the season? Partly yes, as we have not signed the additional defender we clearly need and three players of our spine only started training last week, coupled with the fact we have a hard start.
As I said, if we play like that next week against Newcastle, I will be concerned. Not yet though, not at all.
8bit
"Put it this way would you rather win the trophy and lose the first league game or the other way around?"
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Oh dear, what an absolutely silly comment! So City have lost it, by your logic, what guarantee do they have that they will win everything else or that Arsenal won't win anything else? See, your reasoning is absolutely stupid. Just win whatever is in front of you if you are good enough, even a friendly. Even Fergie lists this trophy among his record of achievements.
I've just read the telegraph article. It says nothing at all really, a third of the time the winner goes in to win the league. Hardly a surprise given that the previous winner and another top club tend to compete in it coupled with the lack of competitiveness at times in the domestic league (Liverpools dominance for example).
I'm not entirely sure of the relevance of the link to the conversation to be honest? Is there comments below I can't see on the phone version that I'm missing?
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Nasri
Page 3 of 5
posted on 10/8/14
Ripley
I admire you so much for trying to find reason in a place where reason does not appear to exist.
posted on 10/8/14
I see it for what it is, I just think it's worthwhile. I don't need to debate the wider context around trophies, club sizes, I just need to do the logical thing which is measure the outcome against the effort expended.
posted on 10/8/14
90 minutes of competive football expended for a confidence boost, a nice shield, and a good day out.
Not worthwhile?
------------------------
Sigh. Dictionary definitions now?
Put it into context. Real context. CL, League, FA Cup, League Cup - actual competitions where many teams take part. Not a one off game which is contested between two teams who won much more important trophies the previous season.
A one off game. Not a major trophy. Not a worthwhile trophy. Yes, as a game itself it serves as a curtain raiser, and raises money for charity, but as a trophy to be won, it means nothing. The value of the game doesn't lie in the trophy that is won at the end of it.
posted on 10/8/14
The value of something being worthwhile is measured against the effort expended ripley. If it wasn't a worthwhile trophy nobody would have turned up.
posted on 10/8/14
I admire you so much for trying to find reason in a place where reason does not appear to exist.
--------------
I just don't understand Vito's point. I've said that Arsenal were the better team today. That Arsenal deserved to win. The value of the game lies in the game itself, not the trophy handed out at the end of it.
posted on 10/8/14
comment by RipleysCat (U1862)
posted 12 seconds ago
I admire you so much for trying to find reason in a place where reason does not appear to exist.
--------------
I just don't understand Vito's point. I've said that Arsenal were the better team today. That Arsenal deserved to win. The value of the game lies in the game itself, not the trophy handed out at the end of it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think his point is just have the last word. Not much of what he has said carries any coherence.
i.e. "The value of something being worthwhile is measured against the effort expended" - is he talking here about an empirical fact or the example buying a jackpot winning lottery ticket.
posted on 10/8/14
comment by RipleysCat (U1862)
posted 1 minute ago
I admire you so much for trying to find reason in a place where reason does not appear to exist.
--------------
I just don't understand Vito's point. I've said that Arsenal were the better team today. That Arsenal deserved to win. The value of the game lies in the game itself, not the trophy handed out at the end of it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I gave you a precise definition of worthwhile. What don't you understand exactly about this shiny shield being worthy of 90 minutes of effort?
posted on 10/8/14
If it wasn't a worthwhile trophy nobody would have turned up.
--------------
What? I say again. What?
Context Vito. It's all about context. It's a curtain raiser. The two teams invited to take part are more than happy to do so. It's a charity event. That's where its value lies. Not as a worthwhile trophy that players and clubs are vying to win. Clubs and players want to win the league, the FA Cup, the CL. Has any player ever during a summer said that they have joined a club because that club is playing in the community shield and that's a "competition" that they have always wanted to win?
Never.
posted on 10/8/14
You'd certainly rather win it than not, as with any game your team plays whether competitive or not.
But in the grand scheme of things it means absolutely nothing, and I completely disagree with the Arsenal giving out a 'statement of intent' headline being carried by the BBC.
posted on 10/8/14
What don't you understand exactly about this shiny shield being worthy of 90 minutes of effort?
---------------
I understand that those 90 minutes worth of effort mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the actual competitions that actually mean something.
posted on 10/8/14
comment by RipleysCat (U1862)
posted 45 seconds ago
What don't you understand exactly about this shiny shield being worthy of 90 minutes of effort?
---------------
I understand that those 90 minutes worth of effort mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the actual competitions that actually mean something.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Only you've already admitted it's a good indicator of who is going to go on to win something and a confidence boost.
You appear to be changing contexts according to whatever suits your definition of worthwhile.
posted on 10/8/14
I don't really get why the argument is even happening. Most fans attach less importance to the community shield as they do any pl game, the ones that don't tend to be the clubs that know they won't be fighting for domestic honours at the end of the season.
It had the same rules as a preseason friendly, not a competitive fixture. Would managers, players and fans rather win it? Of course they would, it's an expensive day out and they want to see their team do well. If they don't though, people really aren't that bothered than they would be in other fixtures.
posted on 10/8/14
"Only you've already admitted it's a good indicator of who is going to go on to win something and a confidence boost."
I specifically said it is NOT a good indicator of who is going to go on and win something. To quote my earlier post: "Except that it simply is not a good indicator."
I did say it can be a confidence booster. But so too can a pre-season friendly.
I've not once changed my context in regards to my definition of worthwhile. You're reading something that isn't there. I have specifically said that in context of major competitions, the CS is not a worthwhile competition. It means nothing. It's not a major honour. It's not something that clubs have ambitions of winning. It's a pre-cursor - a curtain raiser. It's nothing but a tradition. And it means nothing in terms of actual competition.
Do you understand my point yet? Or are you going to continue with this ridiculous discussion and attempt to put words into my mouth?
posted on 10/8/14
It had the same rules as a preseason friendly, not a competitive fixture. Would managers, players and fans rather win it? Of course they would, it's an expensive day out and they want to see their team do well. If they don't though, people really aren't that bothered than they would be in other fixtures.
----------------
That pretty much sums it up.
posted on 10/8/14
meltonblue
"It had the same rules as a preseason friendly, not a competitive fixture."
------------------------------------------------
In what sense are the rules the same as a pre-season friendly? Anyway, anybody who loses a match of football will do their utmost to belittle the competition. Still, I would be worried if I were City fan tbh because City were absolutely shambolic today, just 7 days before the start of the new season. Both teams missed key players so that's no excuse.
posted on 10/8/14
In what sense are the rules the same as a pre-season friendly?
--------------
Obvious one being the number of substitutions. Arsenal made 6 substitutions today. City making 5.
posted on 10/8/14
it's worthwhile from a preparation point of view rather than the trophy being worthwhile. Put it this way would you rather win the trophy and lose the first league game or the other way around?
posted on 10/8/14
If you want context, David Moyes won us the Charity Shield, giving us no indication of the 9 months of abject surrender that lay ahead.
posted on 10/8/14
Ripley, you need to get out of your house more / laid.
It's not a trophy, it's a shield.
Vito, why are you wasting your time with this philosophical nonsense debate. The points of this argument are pathetic as is the running commentary. Ripley is a little virgin who is determined to win at least something today after his team were embarrassed and he got spanked on FIFA.
The reality is, City and their fans thought they'd walk all over us today and are feeling a little bit upset and surprised at the 3-0 humiliation. There's no need to be mentioning how many players were missing for you blue bumboys - Despite the commentators failing to mention it on our behalf, we too missed many key players.
posted on 10/8/14
The argument is happening because Ripley made a bold statement about something not being worthwhile, while assuming there is a commonly accepted context for that statement.
While he continues to insist his context is the only possible one, he doesn't appear to understand that from several others it's a worthwhile thing to win. I've even provided a link to where it's been debated as such. I don't have any more to add really, as I didn't make the statement in the first place.
posted on 10/8/14
Congratulations to arsenal the better team on the day.
Let's see what happens in the season when you have more than city to worry about.
posted on 10/8/14
As Ripley said, the fact that managers can make double the amount of changes.
In terms of the game itself, yes we were bad (although improved when Silva came on). Neither team were great, Arsenal were good but we still could have scored, the whole game was top championship/low pl standard at best, as it always is.
Am I worried about the start of the season? Partly yes, as we have not signed the additional defender we clearly need and three players of our spine only started training last week, coupled with the fact we have a hard start.
As I said, if we play like that next week against Newcastle, I will be concerned. Not yet though, not at all.
posted on 10/8/14
Pell out
posted on 10/8/14
8bit
"Put it this way would you rather win the trophy and lose the first league game or the other way around?"
---------------------------------------
Oh dear, what an absolutely silly comment! So City have lost it, by your logic, what guarantee do they have that they will win everything else or that Arsenal won't win anything else? See, your reasoning is absolutely stupid. Just win whatever is in front of you if you are good enough, even a friendly. Even Fergie lists this trophy among his record of achievements.
posted on 10/8/14
I've just read the telegraph article. It says nothing at all really, a third of the time the winner goes in to win the league. Hardly a surprise given that the previous winner and another top club tend to compete in it coupled with the lack of competitiveness at times in the domestic league (Liverpools dominance for example).
I'm not entirely sure of the relevance of the link to the conversation to be honest? Is there comments below I can't see on the phone version that I'm missing?
Page 3 of 5