"So we've not been able to get over those mental weaknesses and win a trophy since, yes?"

Yes, you have been able to overcome those mental weaknesses. You admit they existed after all then.

The question (which I posed right at the start) was whether they could ensure the same weakness does not creep in for the second leg. I fail to see why that is not a fair warning??

comment by Villain of the Peace (U19898)
posted 1 minute ago
"comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 1 minute ago
Doubt the OP remembers the 91 season, docked 2 points for indiscipline but still stormed to the league title."

Yes I do remember. Not entirely sure that AW can be blamed for their behaviour that day.

Or are you telling me that they had disciplinary issues before he took over, and he merely compounded them?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am saying perceived indiscipline does not equal failure.

1991 - 2 points docked, champions with only one defeat.
2004 - 6 players banned for incident at OT, champions with 0 defeats.


Conclusion... Your article is deeply flawed by historical evidence proving the contrary is true.

"We are currently in a more successful period than all of them (using timescales that suit my point, like you do)"

My timescale is simply since AW joined the club, since he is the manager, and he is the influencer. It's quite simple really isn't it?

You lot have gone back as far as 1991, and then say that Arsenal are more successful than United in a DIFFERENT time period. My timescale has at least been consistent.

So - You are now saying that this is focused only on the context of the Besiktas tie then? Cool.

So why the need to start bringing up the past if you're only concerned about this one tie?

Where was our mental frailty in that match? Failing to concede when down to 10 men? Daring to almost score when we had 10 men?

You've gone from ill discipline being inherent to Arsenal, to mental frailty been ingrained into our psyché......to Ramsey's red card possibly costing us the tie

"I am saying perceived indiscipline does not equal failure.

1991 - 2 points docked, champions with only one defeat.
2004 - 6 players banned for incident at OT, champions with 0 defeats.


Conclusion... Your article is deeply flawed by historical evidence proving the contrary is true."

Did I say Arsenal had never won the league with ill-disciplined players? Or did I say that an ill-disciplined display could come back and haunt them?

I'll let you re-read the article

comment by Villain of the Peace (U19898)
posted 36 seconds ago
"We are currently in a more successful period than all of them (using timescales that suit my point, like you do)"

My timescale is simply since AW joined the club, since he is the manager, and he is the influencer. It's quite simple really isn't it?

You lot have gone back as far as 1991, and then say that Arsenal are more successful than United in a DIFFERENT time period. My timescale has at least been consistent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We've won 3 titles and 5 FA Cups under Wenger.

Are you going to say that isn't successful?

Your time scale, this, includes when we were at our most ill-disciplined, but most successful, period of Wengers reign.
It also includes when we were at our most disciplined but least successful period of Wengers reign.

Both flinging crap at your whole argument.

'The Gunners' steel has famously deserted them on the big occasion, and all too often they are the victims of their own downfall. Aaron Ramsey was dismissed late-on in the clash after cynically tugging the shirt of former Arsenal trainee Oguzhan Ozyakup to underline the fragile mentality that seems to permeate the club.'


Tugging someone's shirt = fragile mentality ?

"We've won 3 titles and 5 FA Cups under Wenger.

Are you going to say that isn't successful?"

It's very successful. Just not AS successful.
And how many more could they have won if they hadn't bottled it? I re-iterate: I am not saying they have NEVER won anything. Discipline has been their undoing in the past, and the article suggests that they do not want it to be the reason again.

Especially in Europe where AW has been found wanting

Cynically, dot. The old cynical slight grab of someone's shirt. Something only the frailest of minds could do...

D'Jeezus Mackaroni

Not convinced that our new Villain friend is 100% genuine.

Maybe they have a deep rooted dislike of Arsenal, or perhaps are unable to accept reasonable logic.

It is quite remarkable that they are referencing incidents and comments from many years (even a decade) ago in an attempt to disparage the club’s fortunes this season.

You couldn’t make it up. Well notwithstanding the OP…

Injuries have been our undoing, Wenger should have disciplined players hamstrings better

WWSPD, it is a nice change from Giroud articles, tbh.

comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 1 minute ago
Your time scale, this, includes when we were at our most ill-disciplined, but most successful, period of Wengers reign.
It also includes when we were at our most disciplined but least successful period of Wengers reign.

Well, earlier on, someone was claiming that the reason they are not still successful under AW is money.

So the point is, when it was a "level playing field", how much more could they have won if they had the skill/determination/guile/etc etc etc of other clubs?

Playing as champions means that everyone wants to beat you, and you have to show a lot of character to win the league again.

Pub quiz time: when was the last time Arsenal retained the title?

Why spend so long writing an article to then just wum

"It is quite remarkable that they are referencing incidents and comments from many years (even a decade) ago in an attempt to disparage the club’s fortunes this season."

But you guys are also referencing these years to underline AW's success in the past!!!

If someone wrote an article on how SAF was a so-and-so, would you resent their reference of an incident that happened in 1987 (or whenever) if it illustrated his actions at the club?

He seems like villas version of cinci , has no real point just hates wenger

When was it a level playing field against United?

When they were buying the likes of Ferdinand, Veron and the likes for multi millions while we were buying Anelka for £500,000?

It has never been a level playing field on money terms, our mental strength has allowed us to bridge the gap.

comment by Villain of the Peace (U19898)
posted 4 minutes ago
"We've won 3 titles and 5 FA Cups under Wenger.

Are you going to say that isn't successful?"

It's very successful. Just not AS successful.
And how many more could they have won if they hadn't bottled it? I re-iterate: I am not saying they have NEVER won anything. Discipline has been their undoing in the past, and the article suggests that they do not want it to be the reason again.

Especially in Europe where AW has been found wanting
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So basically, you're saying that Arsenal would have won more if they'd delivered when it mattered......


.....and you don't think this applies equally to other clubs

"our mental strength has allowed us to bridge the gap."

Wow.
Just.....wow.

comment by Villain of the Peace (U19898)
posted 2 minutes ago
"It is quite remarkable that they are referencing incidents and comments from many years (even a decade) ago in an attempt to disparage the club’s fortunes this season."

But you guys are also referencing these years to underline AW's success in the past!!!

If someone wrote an article on how SAF was a so-and-so, would you resent their reference of an incident that happened in 1987 (or whenever) if it illustrated his actions at the club?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Honestly you could easily write this exact same selective article for Fergie/Mourinho/Chelsea/Liverpool, but you wouldn't because you clearly hate Arsenal

Smaller clubs just hate how arsenal became so big

I'm not a big fan of any of them.
And I have written selected article on other clubs.
That is the point of an article isn't it? You "select" a specific point, and then write about it.
You don't balance it out with "but that's ok because..."

If I was writing about a murder victim, I wouldn't counter-weight the argument by saying that the perpetrator at least got a GCSE in English. I'd fixate on the point of the article.

"comment by Sir Digby (U6039)
posted 24 seconds ago
Smaller clubs just hate how arsenal became so big"

How many ECs have you won?

This debate...


www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdbORXEmbnk


Cartman >>> Villain.