Mata had impressive stats in a season we struggled to finish top 4 and got knocked out of the champions league in group stages.
The following season when we tightened everything up on the field with Mourinho we challenged for the league and made the Semi's of the CL, that's the season Mata struggled (although wasn't here 2nd half of the season) it became obvious what sort of luxury player he was.
---------------------------------
There's a lot of validity in your comments. However, it would add balance to acknowledge that Mata played a role in the two European trophies Chelsea won in those 'bad' years, since you mention that without him Chelsea reached the CL semis. And I don't remember many people suggesting Mata was the one holding Chelsea back until Mourinho came along.
What didn't suit Fabregas was being played out of position. Barça fúcked up so badly there imo.
comment by itsonlyagame - Laurie Cunningham & Alfredo... (U6426)
posted 41 seconds ago
What didn't suit Fabregas was being played out of position. Barça fúcked up so badly there imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He doesn't suit that tippy tappy crap either
comment by itsonlyagame - Laurie Cunningham & Alfredo Di Stefano - gone but not forgotten (U6426)
posted 47 seconds ago
What didn't suit Fabregas was being played out of position. Barça fúcked up so badly there imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem is they didn't really need him. Seems they bought him to replace Xavi eventually but Xavi was still important to them. There wasn't really any room for him and the fans for some reason didn't like him.
Mata is better than Silva. No contest really.
Silva played with Toure/Fernandinho/De jong. Mata played with Carrick/Cleverley/Obi Mikel/ Ramirez.
Del Bosque thought it was a contest
Mata took a while to get going last season. People were blaming Moyes for it.
He had a good last 5 or 6 weeks last season and as for this season, he was ok on Sunday but poor against Swansea
Claiming he is the best player in the league currently is daft.
Ability wise he is a brilliant player in my opinion but at United, he has yet so show any real consistency aised from the end of last season
When the side is more balanced though and we have a stronger CM, (new signing or our injured players back) I'm expecting Mata to absolutely shine and said a few weeks ago he could be our player of the season
comment by Forrr - I'm Red John (U18420)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by itsonlyagame - Laurie Cunningham & Alfredo Di Stefano - gone but not forgotten (U6426)
posted 47 seconds ago
What didn't suit Fabregas was being played out of position. Barça fúcked up so badly there imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem is they didn't really need him. Seems they bought him to replace Xavi eventually but Xavi was still important to them. There wasn't really any room for him and the fans for some reason didn't like him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Big mistake was not to gradually start phasing Xavi out when they signed Cesc, for more reason than one.
As far as the players themselves are concerned, Xavi's influence on the game has been on the wane ever since they brought Cesc in. Already in 2012 you could see he was struggling to boss games quite as he'd done from 08-11.
The other factor is that playing Cesc in CM would have meant Barça playing a somewhat more direct style, though still within a heaily possession-based game. With every passing season, teams were growing more and more familiar with Barça's approach and it was becoming increasingly ineffective.
In Barça's defence, I think it's fair to point out that they were hugely unlucky on the managerial front. The season after Guardiola's departure they had to deal with Vilanova's illness mid-season, and his relapse just before the start of the following season meant they had to bring in Martino as an emergency replacement who had no time to work with the team before having to compete on all fronts.
As a result of the above, none of them dared mess about too much with the setup Guardiola left behind, so perhaps that could partly explain the failed transition from Xavi to Cesc.
BB, Cesc's well suited to a possession-based game, it's just that the latter-year Barça and Spain teams took it to extremes that it shouldn't really have reached imo.
He's a very good player given the right setup around him. I would never have him over Silva though, particularly in our 442 as we rely a lot on Nasri and Silvas positioning without the ball.
comment by Forrr - I'm Red John (U18420)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by itsonlyagame - Laurie Cunningham & Alfredo Di Stefano - gone but not forgotten (U6426)
posted 47 seconds ago
What didn't suit Fabregas was being played out of position. Barça fúcked up so badly there imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem is they didn't really need him. Seems they bought him to replace Xavi eventually but Xavi was still important to them. There wasn't really any room for him and the fans for some reason didn't like him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Xavi has been on the decline for about 3 years. It has been a slow regression but it is at the stage now he should be moved on imo.
Cesc would have been ideal to slowly move into that role, more fool Barca.
The thing people need to consider about David Silva is he basically plays in a 442. He's an incredible player even out of position.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 27 minutes ago
Mata had impressive stats in a season we struggled to finish top 4 and got knocked out of the champions league in group stages.
The following season when we tightened everything up on the field with Mourinho we challenged for the league and made the Semi's of the CL, that's the season Mata struggled (although wasn't here 2nd half of the season) it became obvious what sort of luxury player he was.
---------------------------------
There's a lot of validity in your comments. However, it would add balance to acknowledge that Mata played a role in the two European trophies Chelsea won in those 'bad' years, since you mention that without him Chelsea reached the CL semis. And I don't remember many people suggesting Mata was the one holding Chelsea back until Mourinho came along.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The thing is when RDM came in and we started that run to win it, Mata, although still in the first team, was a less influential figure to our run to win it from the 2nd leg Napoli game, apart from that corner. Our game was purely based of a deep defensive line and counter attacks, with lumping balls forward to Drogba when under pressure.
So from what I was seeing, Mata wasn't as good as he was in the first half of the season for us in that season, and that first half was quite disastrous as a team, but Mata was given his free role from the left wing and did well.
I can only speculate here, but if RDM had Oscar or Willian in the squad for our CL run, I'd say he would have started with either of those two over Mata.
They all may be at their most effective when give the free role, but when not, their level of performance is different. Rooney I would say is the best of the three in terms of what he will bring when not playing in a free role, and RVP is the better striker of the three. So RVP with Rooney behind and Di Maria plus another fast winger would be the most practical choice for the attacking line up in my opinion.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Gazza (U1266)
posted 2 minutes ago
Pragmatic teams win. It isn't about finding the most balance. You can be just as dogmatic about balance and defensive strength as about attacking talent. Thoroughly unbalanced teams can be the most pragmatic option.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a load of crap.
Would you call the great Barca team pragmatic, or the great Brazilian sides, the Ajax side that LVG won the CL with ect
No, these were all won ideals and the managers theory of how to play the game.
A tiny winger playing up front as a "false 9". Pragmatism at it's best, right?
Agreed, although I would say that's a much harder thing to achieve if we take Barcelona as an example. However I don't see LVG taking that approach.
Calm down Busby. Why you getting your knickers in a twist for?
I think Gazza is trying to say that for those teams that was the most pragmatic approach to take, due to players, due to training, due to how youth was developed... etc. They may have been very unbalanced but the way they played was probably the most pragmatic approach given the factors above.
the sad truth, not matter how good he is
He will lose his place at united in the same way he lost it at Chelsea
Lovely fella, world class in some senses, but doesn't have the physical attributes nor the ability to adapt to effect a top of the league PL team
Selling him for as much as we did was brilliant business
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Lovely fella, world class in some senses, but doesn't have the physical attributes nor the ability to adapt to effect a top of the league PL team
What utter utter cobblers.
Big mistake to think Barça's approach wasn't pragmatic. Guardiola more than once emphasized the point by saying that Barça played the way they did because that was the style that best suited his players.
This is a strange article considering how poor Mata has been so far this season.
Yes he scored a tap-in but his all round play was underwhelming to say the least. Hopefully he will improve with better players around him but on current form he is not remotely world class (and he can't even start regularly for Spain).
He is also nowhere near the best player in the league. Fabregas has been miles better than Mata so far this season (and is ahead of him in the international pecking order). Players like Yaya and Aguero are also miles better than him.
I like Mata but I think he still has it all to prove at United. So far this season I can see why Jose was happy to get rid and for £37.5m I expect a lot more. That was an unbelievable deal for Chelsea considering they signed Fabregas for a lot less than that.
This is a strange article considering how poor Mata has been so far this season.
=============================
Not one of our players has been good. at least he did something that gained us a point.
Sign in if you want to comment
Juan Mata
Page 3 of 4
posted on 26/8/14
Mata had impressive stats in a season we struggled to finish top 4 and got knocked out of the champions league in group stages.
The following season when we tightened everything up on the field with Mourinho we challenged for the league and made the Semi's of the CL, that's the season Mata struggled (although wasn't here 2nd half of the season) it became obvious what sort of luxury player he was.
---------------------------------
There's a lot of validity in your comments. However, it would add balance to acknowledge that Mata played a role in the two European trophies Chelsea won in those 'bad' years, since you mention that without him Chelsea reached the CL semis. And I don't remember many people suggesting Mata was the one holding Chelsea back until Mourinho came along.
posted on 26/8/14
What didn't suit Fabregas was being played out of position. Barça fúcked up so badly there imo.
posted on 26/8/14
comment by itsonlyagame - Laurie Cunningham & Alfredo... (U6426)
posted 41 seconds ago
What didn't suit Fabregas was being played out of position. Barça fúcked up so badly there imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
He doesn't suit that tippy tappy crap either
posted on 26/8/14
comment by itsonlyagame - Laurie Cunningham & Alfredo Di Stefano - gone but not forgotten (U6426)
posted 47 seconds ago
What didn't suit Fabregas was being played out of position. Barça fúcked up so badly there imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem is they didn't really need him. Seems they bought him to replace Xavi eventually but Xavi was still important to them. There wasn't really any room for him and the fans for some reason didn't like him.
posted on 26/8/14
Mata is better than Silva. No contest really.
Silva played with Toure/Fernandinho/De jong. Mata played with Carrick/Cleverley/Obi Mikel/ Ramirez.
posted on 26/8/14
Del Bosque thought it was a contest
posted on 26/8/14
Mata took a while to get going last season. People were blaming Moyes for it.
He had a good last 5 or 6 weeks last season and as for this season, he was ok on Sunday but poor against Swansea
Claiming he is the best player in the league currently is daft.
Ability wise he is a brilliant player in my opinion but at United, he has yet so show any real consistency aised from the end of last season
When the side is more balanced though and we have a stronger CM, (new signing or our injured players back) I'm expecting Mata to absolutely shine and said a few weeks ago he could be our player of the season
posted on 26/8/14
comment by Forrr - I'm Red John (U18420)
posted 6 minutes ago
comment by itsonlyagame - Laurie Cunningham & Alfredo Di Stefano - gone but not forgotten (U6426)
posted 47 seconds ago
What didn't suit Fabregas was being played out of position. Barça fúcked up so badly there imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem is they didn't really need him. Seems they bought him to replace Xavi eventually but Xavi was still important to them. There wasn't really any room for him and the fans for some reason didn't like him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Big mistake was not to gradually start phasing Xavi out when they signed Cesc, for more reason than one.
As far as the players themselves are concerned, Xavi's influence on the game has been on the wane ever since they brought Cesc in. Already in 2012 you could see he was struggling to boss games quite as he'd done from 08-11.
The other factor is that playing Cesc in CM would have meant Barça playing a somewhat more direct style, though still within a heaily possession-based game. With every passing season, teams were growing more and more familiar with Barça's approach and it was becoming increasingly ineffective.
In Barça's defence, I think it's fair to point out that they were hugely unlucky on the managerial front. The season after Guardiola's departure they had to deal with Vilanova's illness mid-season, and his relapse just before the start of the following season meant they had to bring in Martino as an emergency replacement who had no time to work with the team before having to compete on all fronts.
As a result of the above, none of them dared mess about too much with the setup Guardiola left behind, so perhaps that could partly explain the failed transition from Xavi to Cesc.
BB, Cesc's well suited to a possession-based game, it's just that the latter-year Barça and Spain teams took it to extremes that it shouldn't really have reached imo.
posted on 26/8/14
He's a very good player given the right setup around him. I would never have him over Silva though, particularly in our 442 as we rely a lot on Nasri and Silvas positioning without the ball.
posted on 26/8/14
comment by Forrr - I'm Red John (U18420)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by itsonlyagame - Laurie Cunningham & Alfredo Di Stefano - gone but not forgotten (U6426)
posted 47 seconds ago
What didn't suit Fabregas was being played out of position. Barça fúcked up so badly there imo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem is they didn't really need him. Seems they bought him to replace Xavi eventually but Xavi was still important to them. There wasn't really any room for him and the fans for some reason didn't like him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Xavi has been on the decline for about 3 years. It has been a slow regression but it is at the stage now he should be moved on imo.
Cesc would have been ideal to slowly move into that role, more fool Barca.
posted on 26/8/14
The thing people need to consider about David Silva is he basically plays in a 442. He's an incredible player even out of position.
posted on 26/8/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 26/8/14
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 27 minutes ago
Mata had impressive stats in a season we struggled to finish top 4 and got knocked out of the champions league in group stages.
The following season when we tightened everything up on the field with Mourinho we challenged for the league and made the Semi's of the CL, that's the season Mata struggled (although wasn't here 2nd half of the season) it became obvious what sort of luxury player he was.
---------------------------------
There's a lot of validity in your comments. However, it would add balance to acknowledge that Mata played a role in the two European trophies Chelsea won in those 'bad' years, since you mention that without him Chelsea reached the CL semis. And I don't remember many people suggesting Mata was the one holding Chelsea back until Mourinho came along.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The thing is when RDM came in and we started that run to win it, Mata, although still in the first team, was a less influential figure to our run to win it from the 2nd leg Napoli game, apart from that corner. Our game was purely based of a deep defensive line and counter attacks, with lumping balls forward to Drogba when under pressure.
So from what I was seeing, Mata wasn't as good as he was in the first half of the season for us in that season, and that first half was quite disastrous as a team, but Mata was given his free role from the left wing and did well.
I can only speculate here, but if RDM had Oscar or Willian in the squad for our CL run, I'd say he would have started with either of those two over Mata.
posted on 26/8/14
They all may be at their most effective when give the free role, but when not, their level of performance is different. Rooney I would say is the best of the three in terms of what he will bring when not playing in a free role, and RVP is the better striker of the three. So RVP with Rooney behind and Di Maria plus another fast winger would be the most practical choice for the attacking line up in my opinion.
posted on 26/8/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 26/8/14
comment by Gazza (U1266)
posted 2 minutes ago
Pragmatic teams win. It isn't about finding the most balance. You can be just as dogmatic about balance and defensive strength as about attacking talent. Thoroughly unbalanced teams can be the most pragmatic option.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a load of crap.
Would you call the great Barca team pragmatic, or the great Brazilian sides, the Ajax side that LVG won the CL with ect
No, these were all won ideals and the managers theory of how to play the game.
A tiny winger playing up front as a "false 9". Pragmatism at it's best, right?
posted on 26/8/14
Agreed, although I would say that's a much harder thing to achieve if we take Barcelona as an example. However I don't see LVG taking that approach.
posted on 26/8/14
Calm down Busby. Why you getting your knickers in a twist for?
posted on 26/8/14
I think Gazza is trying to say that for those teams that was the most pragmatic approach to take, due to players, due to training, due to how youth was developed... etc. They may have been very unbalanced but the way they played was probably the most pragmatic approach given the factors above.
posted on 26/8/14
the sad truth, not matter how good he is
He will lose his place at united in the same way he lost it at Chelsea
Lovely fella, world class in some senses, but doesn't have the physical attributes nor the ability to adapt to effect a top of the league PL team
Selling him for as much as we did was brilliant business
posted on 26/8/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 26/8/14
Lovely fella, world class in some senses, but doesn't have the physical attributes nor the ability to adapt to effect a top of the league PL team
What utter utter cobblers.
posted on 26/8/14
Big mistake to think Barça's approach wasn't pragmatic. Guardiola more than once emphasized the point by saying that Barça played the way they did because that was the style that best suited his players.
posted on 26/8/14
This is a strange article considering how poor Mata has been so far this season.
Yes he scored a tap-in but his all round play was underwhelming to say the least. Hopefully he will improve with better players around him but on current form he is not remotely world class (and he can't even start regularly for Spain).
He is also nowhere near the best player in the league. Fabregas has been miles better than Mata so far this season (and is ahead of him in the international pecking order). Players like Yaya and Aguero are also miles better than him.
I like Mata but I think he still has it all to prove at United. So far this season I can see why Jose was happy to get rid and for £37.5m I expect a lot more. That was an unbelievable deal for Chelsea considering they signed Fabregas for a lot less than that.
posted on 26/8/14
This is a strange article considering how poor Mata has been so far this season.
=============================
Not one of our players has been good. at least he did something that gained us a point.
Page 3 of 4