http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20608039
An example of what I am speaking about. Sometimes it is not even mean spiritied, just daft stereotypes.
comment by Republik of Mancunia (U6779)
---------
Actually the virgin thing is just one example, there are numerous ones. I even did one internally to see how our system was designed and got rid of some people who were doing this.
I'll give you another example; when I was doing one of my Masters degrees, there was a placement opportunity in one of the best companies on planet earth to work in and we were told that only the best of the best would get it by the employer. I did not apply for it because I was on a sabbatical but one of my coursemates from Cameroon, the best student in our department and both he and I were the only people to graduate with clear distinctions applied for it.
We had on average an 80% - 20% foreign to UK class. Class of about 16 people, mostly foreigners. There was no interview but a selection based on grades and one of our class mates who was just an average student but was British with the right sounding name got the placement.
He was actually embarrassed he got the placement. This happens every day. The Cameroonian guy now works for Statoil and is doing very well for himself in Norway. That incident put him off the UK and we lost a great brain. We lose more everyday to the canadians who do not give 2 shts about where you are from or what your name sounds like.
We need to sort this out but that is a different debate.
comment by Jay. (U16498)
posted 13 minutes ago
Not to mention, if the sport was inherently discriminatory, we would not be seeing as many black players as we do & some of them are the best young talents of our generation.
=============================
I disagree with that mate, you are comparing 2 different things. You will find that in sports, even during eras of discrimination, physical activity is just not discriminated against. Sports are not discriminatory but the management of these sports can be discriminatory.
I could look at it another way - in IT at my place, there are 4 women out of about 90 people. Does that make my company sexist because the majority of the applicants are male? Or does it simply mean that less women choose to work in IT?
================
You could also look at it in PR companies, more women than men. However, we are not comparing sexes in this scenario. That is also discriminatory but that is another debate.
The issue is there aren't many black managers, full stop, not that they aren't being given jobs.
================
I agree that there are not that many black managers but there could be underlying problems behind that. For example; the lack of belief you will get a job from a a market that appears to be discriminatory.
Will the Chairman/Owner look more seriously at the European applicant with specs?
Or
The black man?
If they are thinking that the black man is less smart is that racist?
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
How many ex-players are currently managers? And when were they players?
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 1 minute ago
How many ex-players are currently managers? And when were they players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is an excellent point. How many of them are currently managers at the highest level too.
Roberts is trying to blame one single thing for this but there are a myriad of issues
Pardew for example, hung up his boots 16 years ago and has worked his way around since 1999 until landing the Newcastle job 4 years ago
1999–2003 Reading
2003–2006 West Ham United
2006–2008 Charlton Athletic
2009–2010 Southampton
2010– Newcastle United
I think the points a lot of people are making are fair - black candidates are generally not given roles because they don't have the required skills, not because of the colour of their skin. However, a lot of discrimination is systemic, not the result of individuals making biased decisions, but because of a series of small decisions that add up to something bigger. The same is often true with gender discrimination.
There is a wider issue here, which relates to leadership in all areas of our economy - men get selected because most of the current leaders are white middle/upper-class men, so they relate better with one another, they think along the same lines, and it's much easier for a male hiring manager to communicate effectively with another man with a similar background. I think having a quota for interviews might work in tackling this issue, but it hasn't really worked in politics, where having even 50:50 shortlists has still resulted in local authorities picking the male candidates.
The important point here is we choose people we get on with to work with us, but actually research has shown that picking all the same types of people with similar backgrounds makes for poor decision-making, because everybody approaches the issues in the same way and has similar blind spots, that having a range of different approaches would help to highlight. This is why our all Oxbridge parliament is so often tone-deaf. It's not that these people are less skilled - they are very often highly-skilled individuals. It's just that they were all taught by the same group of professors, in the same ways, and have too much in common that they end up exhibiting herd-like behaviour.
We need black managers and female managers to improve the game because they will bring a fresh approach, just as foreign managers have. However, at least initially, they won't have the experience or know-how of the white candidates, so to get there we'd have to accept a short-term fall in standards for a long-term gain. And clubs in a competitive industry are unlikely to take that gamble...that's why the FA needs to step in.
*local constituency organisations not local authorities
comment by Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
posted 1 minute ago
I think the points a lot of people are making are fair - black candidates are generally not given roles because they don't have the required skills, not because of the colour of their skin. However, a lot of discrimination is systemic, not the result of individuals making biased decisions, but because of a series of small decisions that add up to something bigger. The same is often true with gender discrimination.
There is a wider issue here, which relates to leadership in all areas of our economy - men get selected because most of the current leaders are white middle/upper-class men, so they relate better with one another, they think along the same lines, and it's much easier for a male hiring manager to communicate effectively with another man with a similar background. I think having a quota for interviews might work in tackling this issue, but it hasn't really worked in politics, where having even 50:50 shortlists has still resulted in local authorities picking the male candidates.
The important point here is we choose people we get on with to work with us, but actually research has shown that picking all the same types of people with similar backgrounds makes for poor decision-making, because everybody approaches the issues in the same way and has similar blind spots, that having a range of different approaches would help to highlight. This is why our all Oxbridge parliament is so often tone-deaf. It's not that these people are less skilled - they are very often highly-skilled individuals. It's just that they were all taught by the same group of professors, in the same ways, and have too much in common that they end up exhibiting herd-like behaviour.
We need black managers and female managers to improve the game because they will bring a fresh approach, just as foreign managers have. However, at least initially, they won't have the experience or know-how of the white candidates, so to get there we'd have to accept a short-term fall in standards for a long-term gain. And clubs in a competitive industry are unlikely to take that gamble...that's why the FA needs to step in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a superb post, superb
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 1 minute ago
What would help is if a Black manager in this country became successful.So far we haven't seen that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well if he cannot get a job in the first place
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 7 minutes ago
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's a very long way off, because female managers need to prove they can manage in the women's game first, but I don't see why a successful female manager couldn't eventually transition to the men's game. The reason we don't have women in the men's game is partly skill, because most women don't play enough, and partly physique. But physique isn't an issue for a manager, and assuming they can effectively communicate with and command respect from a men's team, i don't see why women wouldn't make excellent managers in the premier league for example...
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
feck off Roberts, simply not enough of them trying or not enough good enough, nothing to do with race. Paul Ince gave it a go joining lowly mk dons if I recall after player managing Macclesfield to safety. He then earned his move to Blackburn where he failed and has managed MK dons again, Notts County and Blackpool.
comment by Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
posted 28 seconds ago
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 7 minutes ago
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's a very long way off, because female managers need to prove they can manage in the women's game first, but I don't see why a successful female manager couldn't eventually transition to the men's game. The reason we don't have women in the men's game is partly skill, because most women don't play enough, and partly physique. But physique isn't an issue for a manager, and assuming they can effectively communicate with and command respect from a men's team, i don't see why women wouldn't make excellent managers in the premier league for example...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How will they effectively communicate and command respect from the kitchen though
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 8 minutes ago
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with that. A mind is a mind is a mind, men and women just have different solutions to the same problems. The hardest part would be getting the team on your side as it would clearly be very difficult for you to stay in control!
However, in terms of women playing in the mens game, women are physically weaker in general which is the whole reason they're split in to separate events in the Olympics.
Stop fecking whining and playing the race card all the fecking time get off your backside and do something about it if it bothers you that much.
Simple truth is 3 or 4 black managers lost their job after not being good enough. Chris Hughton is probably the best black manager around in England and hes top end Championship maybe relegation EPL at best.
I remember reading an article Sol Campbell wrote about not being able to get a job as an England coach (which Gary Neville got instead) he wrote that he could do the same job as Neville even though he didn't have any coaching badges and Neville did. He then went onto call the FA racist and said he'd have to get his badges in Wales. Can't remember it word for word but it's along those lines.
Anyway, it was hilarious to read.
comment by Jay. (U16498)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 8 minutes ago
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with that. A mind is a mind is a mind, men and women just have different solutions to the same problems. The hardest part would be getting the team on your side as it would clearly be very difficult for you to stay in control!
However, in terms of women playing in the mens game, women are physically weaker in general which is the whole reason they're split in to separate events in the Olympics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would they be able to take training though? What if they broke a nail?
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Jay. (U16498)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 8 minutes ago
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with that. A mind is a mind is a mind, men and women just have different solutions to the same problems. The hardest part would be getting the team on your side as it would clearly be very difficult for you to stay in control!
However, in terms of women playing in the mens game, women are physically weaker in general which is the whole reason they're split in to separate events in the Olympics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would they be able to take training though? What if they broke a nail?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Save the clubs a bit of money though. Manager, cleaner and chef all in one!
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Truth is a chairman will overlook a black or other race manager subconsciously for an interview. People always use the "obviously wasn't good enough" excuse. But what are the odds of that really. How can they all not be good enough? The whole Malky Mackay text issue is testament his stuff goes on in football. It's only to allow interviews, the Rooney rule doesn't say you have to hire them.
Sign in if you want to comment
Jason Roberts: Harder than ever for black..
Page 3 of 9
6 | 7 | 8 | 9
posted on 24/9/14
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20608039
An example of what I am speaking about. Sometimes it is not even mean spiritied, just daft stereotypes.
comment by Republik of Mancunia (U6779)
---------
Actually the virgin thing is just one example, there are numerous ones. I even did one internally to see how our system was designed and got rid of some people who were doing this.
I'll give you another example; when I was doing one of my Masters degrees, there was a placement opportunity in one of the best companies on planet earth to work in and we were told that only the best of the best would get it by the employer. I did not apply for it because I was on a sabbatical but one of my coursemates from Cameroon, the best student in our department and both he and I were the only people to graduate with clear distinctions applied for it.
We had on average an 80% - 20% foreign to UK class. Class of about 16 people, mostly foreigners. There was no interview but a selection based on grades and one of our class mates who was just an average student but was British with the right sounding name got the placement.
He was actually embarrassed he got the placement. This happens every day. The Cameroonian guy now works for Statoil and is doing very well for himself in Norway. That incident put him off the UK and we lost a great brain. We lose more everyday to the canadians who do not give 2 shts about where you are from or what your name sounds like.
We need to sort this out but that is a different debate.
posted on 24/9/14
comment by Jay. (U16498)
posted 13 minutes ago
Not to mention, if the sport was inherently discriminatory, we would not be seeing as many black players as we do & some of them are the best young talents of our generation.
=============================
I disagree with that mate, you are comparing 2 different things. You will find that in sports, even during eras of discrimination, physical activity is just not discriminated against. Sports are not discriminatory but the management of these sports can be discriminatory.
I could look at it another way - in IT at my place, there are 4 women out of about 90 people. Does that make my company sexist because the majority of the applicants are male? Or does it simply mean that less women choose to work in IT?
================
You could also look at it in PR companies, more women than men. However, we are not comparing sexes in this scenario. That is also discriminatory but that is another debate.
The issue is there aren't many black managers, full stop, not that they aren't being given jobs.
================
I agree that there are not that many black managers but there could be underlying problems behind that. For example; the lack of belief you will get a job from a a market that appears to be discriminatory.
posted on 24/9/14
Will the Chairman/Owner look more seriously at the European applicant with specs?
Or
The black man?
If they are thinking that the black man is less smart is that racist?
posted on 24/9/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 24/9/14
How many ex-players are currently managers? And when were they players?
posted on 24/9/14
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 1 minute ago
How many ex-players are currently managers? And when were they players?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is an excellent point. How many of them are currently managers at the highest level too.
Roberts is trying to blame one single thing for this but there are a myriad of issues
posted on 24/9/14
Pardew for example, hung up his boots 16 years ago and has worked his way around since 1999 until landing the Newcastle job 4 years ago
1999–2003 Reading
2003–2006 West Ham United
2006–2008 Charlton Athletic
2009–2010 Southampton
2010– Newcastle United
posted on 24/9/14
I think the points a lot of people are making are fair - black candidates are generally not given roles because they don't have the required skills, not because of the colour of their skin. However, a lot of discrimination is systemic, not the result of individuals making biased decisions, but because of a series of small decisions that add up to something bigger. The same is often true with gender discrimination.
There is a wider issue here, which relates to leadership in all areas of our economy - men get selected because most of the current leaders are white middle/upper-class men, so they relate better with one another, they think along the same lines, and it's much easier for a male hiring manager to communicate effectively with another man with a similar background. I think having a quota for interviews might work in tackling this issue, but it hasn't really worked in politics, where having even 50:50 shortlists has still resulted in local authorities picking the male candidates.
The important point here is we choose people we get on with to work with us, but actually research has shown that picking all the same types of people with similar backgrounds makes for poor decision-making, because everybody approaches the issues in the same way and has similar blind spots, that having a range of different approaches would help to highlight. This is why our all Oxbridge parliament is so often tone-deaf. It's not that these people are less skilled - they are very often highly-skilled individuals. It's just that they were all taught by the same group of professors, in the same ways, and have too much in common that they end up exhibiting herd-like behaviour.
We need black managers and female managers to improve the game because they will bring a fresh approach, just as foreign managers have. However, at least initially, they won't have the experience or know-how of the white candidates, so to get there we'd have to accept a short-term fall in standards for a long-term gain. And clubs in a competitive industry are unlikely to take that gamble...that's why the FA needs to step in.
posted on 24/9/14
*local constituency organisations not local authorities
posted on 24/9/14
comment by Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
posted 1 minute ago
I think the points a lot of people are making are fair - black candidates are generally not given roles because they don't have the required skills, not because of the colour of their skin. However, a lot of discrimination is systemic, not the result of individuals making biased decisions, but because of a series of small decisions that add up to something bigger. The same is often true with gender discrimination.
There is a wider issue here, which relates to leadership in all areas of our economy - men get selected because most of the current leaders are white middle/upper-class men, so they relate better with one another, they think along the same lines, and it's much easier for a male hiring manager to communicate effectively with another man with a similar background. I think having a quota for interviews might work in tackling this issue, but it hasn't really worked in politics, where having even 50:50 shortlists has still resulted in local authorities picking the male candidates.
The important point here is we choose people we get on with to work with us, but actually research has shown that picking all the same types of people with similar backgrounds makes for poor decision-making, because everybody approaches the issues in the same way and has similar blind spots, that having a range of different approaches would help to highlight. This is why our all Oxbridge parliament is so often tone-deaf. It's not that these people are less skilled - they are very often highly-skilled individuals. It's just that they were all taught by the same group of professors, in the same ways, and have too much in common that they end up exhibiting herd-like behaviour.
We need black managers and female managers to improve the game because they will bring a fresh approach, just as foreign managers have. However, at least initially, they won't have the experience or know-how of the white candidates, so to get there we'd have to accept a short-term fall in standards for a long-term gain. And clubs in a competitive industry are unlikely to take that gamble...that's why the FA needs to step in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a superb post, superb
posted on 24/9/14
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
posted on 24/9/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 24/9/14
comment by Cal Neva (U11544)
posted 1 minute ago
What would help is if a Black manager in this country became successful.So far we haven't seen that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well if he cannot get a job in the first place
posted on 24/9/14
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 7 minutes ago
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's a very long way off, because female managers need to prove they can manage in the women's game first, but I don't see why a successful female manager couldn't eventually transition to the men's game. The reason we don't have women in the men's game is partly skill, because most women don't play enough, and partly physique. But physique isn't an issue for a manager, and assuming they can effectively communicate with and command respect from a men's team, i don't see why women wouldn't make excellent managers in the premier league for example...
posted on 24/9/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 24/9/14
feck off Roberts, simply not enough of them trying or not enough good enough, nothing to do with race. Paul Ince gave it a go joining lowly mk dons if I recall after player managing Macclesfield to safety. He then earned his move to Blackburn where he failed and has managed MK dons again, Notts County and Blackpool.
posted on 24/9/14
comment by Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
posted 28 seconds ago
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 7 minutes ago
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's a very long way off, because female managers need to prove they can manage in the women's game first, but I don't see why a successful female manager couldn't eventually transition to the men's game. The reason we don't have women in the men's game is partly skill, because most women don't play enough, and partly physique. But physique isn't an issue for a manager, and assuming they can effectively communicate with and command respect from a men's team, i don't see why women wouldn't make excellent managers in the premier league for example...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How will they effectively communicate and command respect from the kitchen though
posted on 24/9/14
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 8 minutes ago
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with that. A mind is a mind is a mind, men and women just have different solutions to the same problems. The hardest part would be getting the team on your side as it would clearly be very difficult for you to stay in control!
However, in terms of women playing in the mens game, women are physically weaker in general which is the whole reason they're split in to separate events in the Olympics.
posted on 24/9/14
Stop fecking whining and playing the race card all the fecking time get off your backside and do something about it if it bothers you that much.
Simple truth is 3 or 4 black managers lost their job after not being good enough. Chris Hughton is probably the best black manager around in England and hes top end Championship maybe relegation EPL at best.
posted on 24/9/14
I remember reading an article Sol Campbell wrote about not being able to get a job as an England coach (which Gary Neville got instead) he wrote that he could do the same job as Neville even though he didn't have any coaching badges and Neville did. He then went onto call the FA racist and said he'd have to get his badges in Wales. Can't remember it word for word but it's along those lines.
Anyway, it was hilarious to read.
posted on 24/9/14
comment by Jay. (U16498)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 8 minutes ago
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with that. A mind is a mind is a mind, men and women just have different solutions to the same problems. The hardest part would be getting the team on your side as it would clearly be very difficult for you to stay in control!
However, in terms of women playing in the mens game, women are physically weaker in general which is the whole reason they're split in to separate events in the Olympics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would they be able to take training though? What if they broke a nail?
posted on 24/9/14
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Jay. (U16498)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by RpV (U1145)
posted 8 minutes ago
Flamini'sShirtSleeves (U8186)
Brilliant post.
One thing I disagree with is female managers, though. Male managers for the male game and vice versa. If you say that female managers should have a part in mens football, then you have to say that female players should play in mens teams. And in Olympics the events shouldn't be split by gender...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with that. A mind is a mind is a mind, men and women just have different solutions to the same problems. The hardest part would be getting the team on your side as it would clearly be very difficult for you to stay in control!
However, in terms of women playing in the mens game, women are physically weaker in general which is the whole reason they're split in to separate events in the Olympics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
How would they be able to take training though? What if they broke a nail?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Save the clubs a bit of money though. Manager, cleaner and chef all in one!
posted on 24/9/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 24/9/14
exactly
posted on 24/9/14
Truth is a chairman will overlook a black or other race manager subconsciously for an interview. People always use the "obviously wasn't good enough" excuse. But what are the odds of that really. How can they all not be good enough? The whole Malky Mackay text issue is testament his stuff goes on in football. It's only to allow interviews, the Rooney rule doesn't say you have to hire them.
Page 3 of 9
6 | 7 | 8 | 9