I think I may have it mixed up. We didn't start like that looking at it, but definitely set up like it at some point during the game.
We played a 433 that day, and never once did we have the players to make it work. The players he had available screamed for the Harry-style 442 we played later in the campaign.
In that case Chris Gunter being the main reason
What baffles me is (according to most people on here) Sherwood did such a terrible job last season, yet this season it’s the players that are not good enough. The only difference being Sherwood had no incoming transfers and no pre-season to prepare. I'm not knee jerking, and agree Poch needs time, but the reaction(s) are just so inconsistent.
I think we have made mistakes with the transferring in and transferring out of players but I think the squad is more than capable of doing better than we are seeing.
Top 4? Maybe not. But we should be higher than clubs like Hull, Swansea, West Ham, and Southampton.
Sometimes you have to play to the player's strengths and not to the manager's ideal masterplan. The masterplan can wait, lets make small steps and not just play one certain way without compromise.
HRH, welcome back
It's really quite simple Chicken. Sherwood is a crap manager and the squad is largely average. If Ade decided to play like we know he can we'd be fine.
Shame he's so inconsistent
Bãlès
It's really quite simple Chicken. Sherwood is a crap manager and the squad is largely average. If Ade decided to play like we know he can we'd be fine.
=================
Isn’t that a contradiction in terms? If Sherwood is crap, and the squad average, how did he manage to increase points ratios, goals scored, chances created, goal difference and league position in such a short spell? Surely a crap manager would fail on all of those things. I can understand if you said the squad was brilliant and so he should have done better, or that the squad is average and so Tim did a good job with what he had, but both comments don’t add up.
Ade is a mystery. Harry got him performing, Sherwood got him performing, but under AVB and now Poch his goals seem to have dried up. I see him working harder than I’ve ever seen him, and I think his presence allows others like Kane to exploit spaces, but I also know there is much more in him.
In my opinion the squad is above average but are playing below average.
Hello Chicken
Sherwood actually did a decent job. Not spectacular, and not enough that I think he deserved to stay, but his spell actually looks very good in The context of the part-seasons that sandwich it - AVBs and Pochs.
I believe he finished "5th" in the table if it started from 0 when he took over. His points tally was knocking on for 2pts per game.
This is why I don't understand why people think the squad is average. If Sherwood was such a clown, and the squad is average, how on Earth did he accumulate so many points in his spell?
HRH,
This is why I don't understand why people think the squad is average. If Sherwood was such a clown, and the squad is average, how on Earth did he accumulate so many points in his spell?
=======================
Exactly...which is why i suggested Bãlès post contradicts itself.
Either he was a good manager with an average squad or a poor manager with a really decent squad.
Both AVB and Poch had / have had bad starts and the general concensus is they should be given time. But even though Sherwood did pretty well from the off, and generally okay throughout his short spell, he is considered a "cráp" manager.
I dont get it.
I'll admit it, I just didn't like sherwood
Yes, that's pretty much nutshelled it I think Hengy. Same with Redknapp for many.
Personally, I don't have to like a manager. I'd rather us play well and win games. I don't think Sherwood was the answer, but he scored more points than Martinez, and a couple less than Wenger in his spell. His record stands up.
At present, I think Poch is doing a far inferior job than Sherwood did. Which is a concern
If Ade decided to play like we know he can we'd be fine.
Our average squad was bailed out by him proving a point. Now he's not scoring again we're mid table.
Ie: we're a decent striker away from the top 6. Average.
Will people please stop using Sherwood's half season of stats to compare him to other managers, it's ridiculous. We were a shambles under him and he couldn't stop the flow of sheit out of his gob.
Chicken
The.comments add up fine. Sherwood is a crap manager and the squad is average. He'll probably never manage for a full season but if he does he won't get anywhere near those results.
This debate is moot anyway, in my defence I'll leave you with a jobless Tim (too good for West Brom ) and us in mid table..
Signs of a great manager and squad
We we're no more a shambles than before Sherwood, or now.
I think he had about 26 games, 2/3 of a season. If you transplanted that 26-game table to now - us 5th, a point or two off 4th - most people would probably be talking about how good a job Poch has done, despite taking over a new side and getting them to play his style.
I'm not saying Sherwood is a great manager, but I don't think he did a terrible job. We got a few thumpings under him, we had a few before, and we've had a few since.
You can't just throw Ade in as an easy fix to suit an argument. He had a good record under Sherwood, but he hardly played like Suarez
He also gave Bentaleb his wings, integrated Kane properly, and had Eriksen firing. His dig at Sandro is a view echoed by most now, but not at the time.
In summary - actually did a decent job. Not great, not enough to warrant the job, but alright
comment by HRH Ledley II (U20095)
posted 1 hour, 16 minutes ago
He also gave Bentaleb his wings, integrated Kane properly, and had Eriksen firing. His dig at Sandro is a view echoed by most now, but not at the time.
In summary - actually did a decent job. Not great, not enough to warrant the job, but alright
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In your opinion
I think in this case the stats don't reflect the reality. Tim wasn't ready to be manager.. he should have started in league 2. I don't hate him as much as I did him being in charge, it's like the FA going for Hodgson cos he was cheap.
The football was rubbish, and was bailed out by Adebayor having a purple patch.. I remember us beating Stoke 1-0 and we never deserved it, we were awful that day.
He's like Di Matteo at Chelsea, by all accounts he's a top manager, he won the CL.. except Drogba did. Taking the first 20 or so games of an unqualified coach against the likes of Martinez is a bit ridiculous imo.
As for his team selections.. you bring up Sandro but at the time he was fit - along with Capoue - and we had Chadli and Siggy at CM. The man's a lucky idiot imo.
Yes some good might have come of it, Kane especially took his chance well. For me though the cons far outweighed the pros, and he would've been found out before long. We just need to give this lot time.
Di Matteo isn't really a good parable as his league record was poor. He had a worse record in the league than AVB before him, whereas Sherwood improved it.
You reference Stoke and not playing well but winning 1-0 (we also played well and beat them 3-0) If we did the same when we play Stoke next, I'm sure it'd be spun differently - sign of a good side blah blah.
We can theorise about what would happen if Sherwood had stayed on - and I repeat I don't think he was the right man - but that's all it is, theory.
The only cold hard facts are his actual results. Which were actually quite good overall. Some craps team selections, some pastings, but overall pretty good numbers. That isn't in dispute.
Results pretty good, management skills not so much. Overall an ok job. Pretty much like AVB. Ok not really good enough in either case
Not good enough is not ok!
Di Matteo works in my example of what a manager does on paper is not a true reflection of his ability. He's not going to take over any sides capable of winning the CL.. actually he's done well to get the Schalke job.
The numbers that are there are good but I dispute their usefulness to the debate, it's way too small a sample to be statistically relevant and I'm convinced the squad did it in spite of him.
As you say though, all opinions
Back to the squad.. although I have to agree with Hengy and say that largely it isn't great, I would also say that could all change by the end of the season. Poch has already worked his magic on Rose, we've got to give him time with the others.. our just buy a NEW STRIKER
In my opinion, the squad as a 25 is the strongest it's ever been.
There are no outstanding talents such as King, Lula, Bale and Rafa - the first names on everyone's team sheet.
However, the squad players are superior to what we've had before. No team competes on 3/4 fronts without utilising it. The talent is evenly spread, no player is complacent.
Our squad lies somewhere between 4-7th in terms of talent available. I include us in with Arsenal simply because they have just six defenders on the books and one defensive midfielder.
I bracket us well above Saints and West Ham, despite the early flourish.
yeah… as the season goes on and sides start to get injuries, we should be more durable than most - simply because in most positions (possibly all apart of GK), our backup players are pretty much as good as our first choice.
very little between most members of the squad in terms of quality.
this means we should be competitive in every competition, but probably won't be good enough to win any.
Hopefully a few will break through and become firm first choices.
If I was picking a side, we have just three at the minute (in terms of proven talent):
Lloris
Verts
Ade
Plus...
Walker when he is fit.
Chadli and Rose on current form.
Lamela and Eriksen need to step it up.
All the CMs have it to do
not sure i would guarantee ade a start.
i would play soldado to be honest and see what he can do with a run of five games with 3 of the 4 talented attacking mids we have (lamela eriksen kane chadli)
Bãlès
Will people please stop using Sherwood's half season of stats to compare him to other managers, it's ridiculous. We were a shambles under him and he couldn't stop the flow of sheit out of his gob.
=================
Would you rather us use the fact you don’t like him instead? What else can we use to judge him other than his results, the increase in attempts on goal, the increase in goals scored, positive goal difference and points to games ratios?
The fact (for whatever reason it is) you don’t personally like him doesn’t prove he was not up to the job – his stats are quite incredible taking everything into account. Managers like AVB (& now Poch) are getting comments like “he needs time”, “the players need time to gel” and “we’re a team in transition”, whereas Sherwood was given a squad, no time (i.e. pre-season) to prepare, he took over when morale was at its lowest, and was under pressure from word go – yet he still produced.
Like HRH I am not saying Sherwood is the answer but he certainly deserves more credit than he got, but it’s no surprise to me that some posters are just too stubborn to admit it – even though they have witnessed worse displays this season – worse results – yet will not criticise in the same manner.
Also, it makes me laugh that our current manager can speak very limited English yet Sherwood gets stick for the things he said in front of the camera. Give me a straight talking manager over textbook replies to questions any day....
How about we actually look at the football we played under Sherwood?
All he did was tell them to go and play.. worked fine for Ade.. Eriksen did ok given freedom and space but the rest of them were a mess. Chadli and Siggy at CM? I know you like your English managers but regardless of my opinion Tim clearly wasn't qualified for the job and it showed.
Calling the squad average to the press? Is that the kind of honesty you like? Cos I think that's a fackin stupid thing to say.
You bang on about whether I like him.. That's you're style though, attack the man rather than what he's saying.. we've been here before Chicken and you've shown yourself up before.. in fact the only thing you've said that's good about him was the fact he was straight talking...
No I don't like him, and I don't see why I should. Because he's English? Because he's a g00n? He quite clearly undermined AVB and wangled his way into the job.. I'll give him credit for that, he pulled the wool over Levy's eyes.
You won't convince me he did a good job, or that he's a good manager. I know you like your English managers but how is calling the whole squad average admirable? Honest yes, fackin stupid though. Chadli and Siggy at CM?
At least AVB refused to play Ade cos of his attitude, Sherwood refused to play Capoue or Sandro on some kind of facked up football philosophy. To think if we'd just sacked Ade off and bought a decent striker none of this would've happened.
it’s no surprise to me that some posters are just too stubborn to admit it – even though they have witnessed worse displays this season – worse results – yet will not criticise in the same manner
---
You really are special Chicken.
How about we give the manager time.. a manager proven in the PL, who knows how to handle the press and manage a football club. He won't get the same criticism as Tim because he knows what he's doing. Playing two up front yesterday shows he's not afraid to take a risk and change things up, so he's no AVB either.
Call me crazy but I'd rather not leave the future of our club who's not even qualified, who makes a mess of team selection and clearly has no grasp of modern football tactics, because he's a 'straight talker'.
My hate for Tim isn't abstract, and if you recall l was all for giving him a chance. Then I started hating the way we were playing, then the fact that he blamed the squad (despite hampering them with bizarre team selections and tactics) while demanding a new contract and full control over transfers..
I love Tottenham too much to see a caant like that in charge and pretend everything's ok.
Actually Chicken, as I recall it didn't take long during our debates about AVB for your xenophobia to come out, quickly followed by your nasty side.. let's keep this friendly and about football, yeah?
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The players aren't average. The system is
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posted on 29/10/14
I think I may have it mixed up. We didn't start like that looking at it, but definitely set up like it at some point during the game.
We played a 433 that day, and never once did we have the players to make it work. The players he had available screamed for the Harry-style 442 we played later in the campaign.
posted on 29/10/14
In that case Chris Gunter being the main reason
posted on 29/10/14
What baffles me is (according to most people on here) Sherwood did such a terrible job last season, yet this season it’s the players that are not good enough. The only difference being Sherwood had no incoming transfers and no pre-season to prepare. I'm not knee jerking, and agree Poch needs time, but the reaction(s) are just so inconsistent.
I think we have made mistakes with the transferring in and transferring out of players but I think the squad is more than capable of doing better than we are seeing.
Top 4? Maybe not. But we should be higher than clubs like Hull, Swansea, West Ham, and Southampton.
Sometimes you have to play to the player's strengths and not to the manager's ideal masterplan. The masterplan can wait, lets make small steps and not just play one certain way without compromise.
HRH, welcome back
posted on 29/10/14
It's really quite simple Chicken. Sherwood is a crap manager and the squad is largely average. If Ade decided to play like we know he can we'd be fine.
Shame he's so inconsistent
posted on 30/10/14
Bãlès
It's really quite simple Chicken. Sherwood is a crap manager and the squad is largely average. If Ade decided to play like we know he can we'd be fine.
=================
Isn’t that a contradiction in terms? If Sherwood is crap, and the squad average, how did he manage to increase points ratios, goals scored, chances created, goal difference and league position in such a short spell? Surely a crap manager would fail on all of those things. I can understand if you said the squad was brilliant and so he should have done better, or that the squad is average and so Tim did a good job with what he had, but both comments don’t add up.
Ade is a mystery. Harry got him performing, Sherwood got him performing, but under AVB and now Poch his goals seem to have dried up. I see him working harder than I’ve ever seen him, and I think his presence allows others like Kane to exploit spaces, but I also know there is much more in him.
In my opinion the squad is above average but are playing below average.
posted on 30/10/14
Hello Chicken
Sherwood actually did a decent job. Not spectacular, and not enough that I think he deserved to stay, but his spell actually looks very good in The context of the part-seasons that sandwich it - AVBs and Pochs.
I believe he finished "5th" in the table if it started from 0 when he took over. His points tally was knocking on for 2pts per game.
This is why I don't understand why people think the squad is average. If Sherwood was such a clown, and the squad is average, how on Earth did he accumulate so many points in his spell?
posted on 30/10/14
HRH,
This is why I don't understand why people think the squad is average. If Sherwood was such a clown, and the squad is average, how on Earth did he accumulate so many points in his spell?
=======================
Exactly...which is why i suggested Bãlès post contradicts itself.
Either he was a good manager with an average squad or a poor manager with a really decent squad.
Both AVB and Poch had / have had bad starts and the general concensus is they should be given time. But even though Sherwood did pretty well from the off, and generally okay throughout his short spell, he is considered a "cráp" manager.
I dont get it.
posted on 30/10/14
I'll admit it, I just didn't like sherwood
posted on 30/10/14
Yes, that's pretty much nutshelled it I think Hengy. Same with Redknapp for many.
Personally, I don't have to like a manager. I'd rather us play well and win games. I don't think Sherwood was the answer, but he scored more points than Martinez, and a couple less than Wenger in his spell. His record stands up.
At present, I think Poch is doing a far inferior job than Sherwood did. Which is a concern
posted on 30/10/14
If Ade decided to play like we know he can we'd be fine.
Our average squad was bailed out by him proving a point. Now he's not scoring again we're mid table.
Ie: we're a decent striker away from the top 6. Average.
Will people please stop using Sherwood's half season of stats to compare him to other managers, it's ridiculous. We were a shambles under him and he couldn't stop the flow of sheit out of his gob.
posted on 30/10/14
Chicken
The.comments add up fine. Sherwood is a crap manager and the squad is average. He'll probably never manage for a full season but if he does he won't get anywhere near those results.
This debate is moot anyway, in my defence I'll leave you with a jobless Tim (too good for West Brom ) and us in mid table..
Signs of a great manager and squad
posted on 30/10/14
We we're no more a shambles than before Sherwood, or now.
I think he had about 26 games, 2/3 of a season. If you transplanted that 26-game table to now - us 5th, a point or two off 4th - most people would probably be talking about how good a job Poch has done, despite taking over a new side and getting them to play his style.
I'm not saying Sherwood is a great manager, but I don't think he did a terrible job. We got a few thumpings under him, we had a few before, and we've had a few since.
You can't just throw Ade in as an easy fix to suit an argument. He had a good record under Sherwood, but he hardly played like Suarez
posted on 30/10/14
He also gave Bentaleb his wings, integrated Kane properly, and had Eriksen firing. His dig at Sandro is a view echoed by most now, but not at the time.
In summary - actually did a decent job. Not great, not enough to warrant the job, but alright
posted on 30/10/14
comment by HRH Ledley II (U20095)
posted 1 hour, 16 minutes ago
He also gave Bentaleb his wings, integrated Kane properly, and had Eriksen firing. His dig at Sandro is a view echoed by most now, but not at the time.
In summary - actually did a decent job. Not great, not enough to warrant the job, but alright
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In your opinion
I think in this case the stats don't reflect the reality. Tim wasn't ready to be manager.. he should have started in league 2. I don't hate him as much as I did him being in charge, it's like the FA going for Hodgson cos he was cheap.
The football was rubbish, and was bailed out by Adebayor having a purple patch.. I remember us beating Stoke 1-0 and we never deserved it, we were awful that day.
He's like Di Matteo at Chelsea, by all accounts he's a top manager, he won the CL.. except Drogba did. Taking the first 20 or so games of an unqualified coach against the likes of Martinez is a bit ridiculous imo.
posted on 30/10/14
As for his team selections.. you bring up Sandro but at the time he was fit - along with Capoue - and we had Chadli and Siggy at CM. The man's a lucky idiot imo.
Yes some good might have come of it, Kane especially took his chance well. For me though the cons far outweighed the pros, and he would've been found out before long. We just need to give this lot time.
posted on 31/10/14
Di Matteo isn't really a good parable as his league record was poor. He had a worse record in the league than AVB before him, whereas Sherwood improved it.
You reference Stoke and not playing well but winning 1-0 (we also played well and beat them 3-0) If we did the same when we play Stoke next, I'm sure it'd be spun differently - sign of a good side blah blah.
We can theorise about what would happen if Sherwood had stayed on - and I repeat I don't think he was the right man - but that's all it is, theory.
The only cold hard facts are his actual results. Which were actually quite good overall. Some craps team selections, some pastings, but overall pretty good numbers. That isn't in dispute.
Results pretty good, management skills not so much. Overall an ok job. Pretty much like AVB. Ok not really good enough in either case
posted on 31/10/14
Not good enough is not ok!
Di Matteo works in my example of what a manager does on paper is not a true reflection of his ability. He's not going to take over any sides capable of winning the CL.. actually he's done well to get the Schalke job.
The numbers that are there are good but I dispute their usefulness to the debate, it's way too small a sample to be statistically relevant and I'm convinced the squad did it in spite of him.
As you say though, all opinions
Back to the squad.. although I have to agree with Hengy and say that largely it isn't great, I would also say that could all change by the end of the season. Poch has already worked his magic on Rose, we've got to give him time with the others.. our just buy a NEW STRIKER
posted on 31/10/14
In my opinion, the squad as a 25 is the strongest it's ever been.
There are no outstanding talents such as King, Lula, Bale and Rafa - the first names on everyone's team sheet.
However, the squad players are superior to what we've had before. No team competes on 3/4 fronts without utilising it. The talent is evenly spread, no player is complacent.
Our squad lies somewhere between 4-7th in terms of talent available. I include us in with Arsenal simply because they have just six defenders on the books and one defensive midfielder.
I bracket us well above Saints and West Ham, despite the early flourish.
posted on 31/10/14
yeah… as the season goes on and sides start to get injuries, we should be more durable than most - simply because in most positions (possibly all apart of GK), our backup players are pretty much as good as our first choice.
very little between most members of the squad in terms of quality.
this means we should be competitive in every competition, but probably won't be good enough to win any.
posted on 31/10/14
Hopefully a few will break through and become firm first choices.
If I was picking a side, we have just three at the minute (in terms of proven talent):
Lloris
Verts
Ade
Plus...
Walker when he is fit.
Chadli and Rose on current form.
Lamela and Eriksen need to step it up.
All the CMs have it to do
posted on 31/10/14
not sure i would guarantee ade a start.
i would play soldado to be honest and see what he can do with a run of five games with 3 of the 4 talented attacking mids we have (lamela eriksen kane chadli)
posted on 3/11/14
Bãlès
Will people please stop using Sherwood's half season of stats to compare him to other managers, it's ridiculous. We were a shambles under him and he couldn't stop the flow of sheit out of his gob.
=================
Would you rather us use the fact you don’t like him instead? What else can we use to judge him other than his results, the increase in attempts on goal, the increase in goals scored, positive goal difference and points to games ratios?
The fact (for whatever reason it is) you don’t personally like him doesn’t prove he was not up to the job – his stats are quite incredible taking everything into account. Managers like AVB (& now Poch) are getting comments like “he needs time”, “the players need time to gel” and “we’re a team in transition”, whereas Sherwood was given a squad, no time (i.e. pre-season) to prepare, he took over when morale was at its lowest, and was under pressure from word go – yet he still produced.
Like HRH I am not saying Sherwood is the answer but he certainly deserves more credit than he got, but it’s no surprise to me that some posters are just too stubborn to admit it – even though they have witnessed worse displays this season – worse results – yet will not criticise in the same manner.
Also, it makes me laugh that our current manager can speak very limited English yet Sherwood gets stick for the things he said in front of the camera. Give me a straight talking manager over textbook replies to questions any day....
posted on 3/11/14
How about we actually look at the football we played under Sherwood?
All he did was tell them to go and play.. worked fine for Ade.. Eriksen did ok given freedom and space but the rest of them were a mess. Chadli and Siggy at CM? I know you like your English managers but regardless of my opinion Tim clearly wasn't qualified for the job and it showed.
Calling the squad average to the press? Is that the kind of honesty you like? Cos I think that's a fackin stupid thing to say.
You bang on about whether I like him.. That's you're style though, attack the man rather than what he's saying.. we've been here before Chicken and you've shown yourself up before.. in fact the only thing you've said that's good about him was the fact he was straight talking...
No I don't like him, and I don't see why I should. Because he's English? Because he's a g00n? He quite clearly undermined AVB and wangled his way into the job.. I'll give him credit for that, he pulled the wool over Levy's eyes.
You won't convince me he did a good job, or that he's a good manager. I know you like your English managers but how is calling the whole squad average admirable? Honest yes, fackin stupid though. Chadli and Siggy at CM?
At least AVB refused to play Ade cos of his attitude, Sherwood refused to play Capoue or Sandro on some kind of facked up football philosophy. To think if we'd just sacked Ade off and bought a decent striker none of this would've happened.
posted on 3/11/14
it’s no surprise to me that some posters are just too stubborn to admit it – even though they have witnessed worse displays this season – worse results – yet will not criticise in the same manner
---
You really are special Chicken.
How about we give the manager time.. a manager proven in the PL, who knows how to handle the press and manage a football club. He won't get the same criticism as Tim because he knows what he's doing. Playing two up front yesterday shows he's not afraid to take a risk and change things up, so he's no AVB either.
Call me crazy but I'd rather not leave the future of our club who's not even qualified, who makes a mess of team selection and clearly has no grasp of modern football tactics, because he's a 'straight talker'.
My hate for Tim isn't abstract, and if you recall l was all for giving him a chance. Then I started hating the way we were playing, then the fact that he blamed the squad (despite hampering them with bizarre team selections and tactics) while demanding a new contract and full control over transfers..
I love Tottenham too much to see a caant like that in charge and pretend everything's ok.
posted on 3/11/14
Actually Chicken, as I recall it didn't take long during our debates about AVB for your xenophobia to come out, quickly followed by your nasty side.. let's keep this friendly and about football, yeah?
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