"We need to understand that it's not like last season"
It's exactly like last season in terms of we can't defend and are shipping so many easy goals. Some of the defending today (Lovren for third goal) would see you dropped in a Sunday league team.
Thing is though, arsenal make the champions league every year!
comment by Kolo's Long Schłong! KLS ⚽️ (U1695)
posted 20 seconds ago
Thing is though, arsenal make the champions league every year!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed and players are swayed by that. That's where we need to get to as we don't have London to attract players.
posted 1 minute ago
Maybe it was manager???
-----
It was reported that Wenger paid him a visit during the World Cup to convince him to join. Despite what most think in this country Wenger is going to command more respect than Rogers.
Arsenal show more intent in the market as well
They're very public about their war chest and sign in the 40+ mil range
United are the same
If you're not current favourites, overspending very publicly is the only method that works for getting proven talent
Too much pressure to fill Suarez's boots, which I feel is the closest we could have ever got for Suarez replacement.
What was his system at Swansea? Danny Graham up front wasn't it?
comment by The Kaiser's Trainers (U5676)
posted 23 minutes ago
Arsenal show more intent in the market as well
They're very public about their war chest and sign in the 40+ mil range
United are the same
If you're not current favourites, overspending very publicly is the only method that works for getting proven talent
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense, Arsenal have only ever signed one 40m player, and have only gone over 20m twice in their history (compared to you lot with Carroll, Torres, Lallana, Suarez, Markovic, Downing, Lovren etc etc)
Go and ask the Arsenal fans what they think of their "intent in the market"...
Rafa had a 5 year plan - failed
Hodgson - failed
Dalglish - failed
Rodgers is failing
The buck stops with the manager whether we like it or not. I hold my hands up, I was vocal towards the end of Rafa's tenure, but it was because I expected more. I'm not apologising for it.
But he's a better manager and has more behind him than Rodgers.
I knew Hodgson as a non-starter and I was proved right.
I was worried about Dalglish taking the job on a permanent basis after his temporary tenure and again FSG let him go.
Sl4g me off all you like for bashing the managers, but like it or not at the end of the day it's always down to them. The only thing I can credit Rodgers for is getting Suarez's head back on track last season, and for signing Coutinho and Sturridge, but that's about all. Suarez still did one and Rodgers still didn't replace him. He's messed up.
Both Rafa and kenny needed more time
Especially Rafa as the owners destroyed the club not him
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Even though I don't like Rafa and don't think he's nearly as good as some Liverpool fans make out, I don't think you can describe his tenure as a failure.
He established Liverpool in the pl and cl apart from that last season where the club was in a complete mess.
Fair play to Rodgers, he brought back some hope to Liverpool but it looks to be short-lived.
With regard to Rafa, it was unfortunate it all coincided with the H&G thing and the finances. Looking back with that wonderful thing called hindsight, I hold my hands up to that, too, but FSG weren't keen on having him back so we all had to move on. I have to say they aren't coming out of this with any glory, either: they're the ones appointing the managers.
He was a failure in the sense that his aim was the title and we didn't get it, but had he stayed on, who knows?
Will FSG consider him now, Napoli or not? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. It's perhaps not a good idea to go back, Kenny being proof of that.
If it's any consolation, I don't half miss Rafa, and not just because we're doing pap. I missed him last season, too.
I think anyone who has a Liverpool title as a proper target any time in the last decade and a half+ is on fairy crack
It's a wish for a perfect storm and a lot of luck, not an actual goal to measure performance
Just because you didn't win the title doesn't make it a failure. You had no right to expect a title because you aren't/weren't an established title challenging team.
I suppose the fact some may see the inability to win a title as a failure shows how well he did in raising expectation.
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 16 minutes ago
Just because you didn't win the title doesn't make it a failure. You had no right to expect a title because you aren't/weren't an established title challenging team.
I suppose the fact some may see the inability to win a title as a failure shows how well he did in raising expectation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends how you put it into context. Some of us have had to wait 25 years and it looks like we might have to wait even longer. 18 titles but we've never won the Premier League.
We had no right to expect?! Why ever not, pray? So we give up expecting, do we? I see. My bad.
Rafa wasn't a failure but he wasn't a roaring success either.
He bought a hell of a lot of dross the same as Rodgers apparently has. Generally he did well when he spent big, but that wasn't always the case (Keane, Aquilani, Babel) even Kuyt wasn't really a success as intended as he was brought to be a striker and score goals.
Rafa was very good at setting up teams to be difficult to beat but was also over-cautious at times when more freedom may have brought better results (we had something like 22 0-0 draws in his tenure).
He is a great cup manager but I think his style in the PL makes it difficult to be successful without being the biggest spender, and he isn't going to be the biggest spender with us in the same league as the oil rich clubs.
Rafa doesn't fit how FSG work at all, so I don't see any chance of him coming back while they are owners and no amount of fans pining is going to change that.
They only went for Kenny because they were so new in the job and they needed a bit of stability and to win the fans over for a while.
If they decide Rodgers has had his chance, they will look for another young, progressive manager who works with young talent.
Righteous
I agree some of Rafa's buys weren't great but when you look at who he wanted and who he got and who brought some of the players. When Rafa identified a player he very rarely got his first choice.
But when he did they where good players!
Reina
Alonso
Torres
Mascherano
When he spent big he usually got it right and he got a lot of stick for some players he never wanted.
Robbie Keane!
No my point is that you shouldn't expect a title because you weren't an established title winning team. You had a great season in 09, and perhaps you can see it as failure you didn't go on to win it in the end given the position you got yourselves into (same as last season).
However, you weren't one of the top teams in England that was expected to win and challenge for titles. Chelsea were the other side after us that were in that position, but they had a very poor start under Scolari and so it was difficult for them to get back into contention, and you punched above your weight.
You can talk about 18 titles all you like. But it's not been since the 80's that Liverpool have been in a position to expect titles and title challenged year on year. A bitter pill to swallow but the reality of your standing in English football over the last couple of decades.
If you're realistic about that then Rafa did pretty well all things considered - regardless of your inability to win the title.
All managers can say 'I wanted this player or that player'
At the end of the day the best managers get the best out of whatever players they have, even if they weren't their first choice signings. In very few jobs are they lucky enough to have always get their first choice signings.
Its an easy excuse after not meeting expectations to say 'it wasn't my fault I didn't get the players I wanted'. That argument should end as soon as you get whoever you do get. Get on with the job with the players you have.
Agree with that but Rafa got a lot right!
That's true, righteous.
I do wonder, however, whether Rafa would have got more of his targets/done better in the market than Kenny and Brendan have with that money.
Obviously your position in the footballing ladder had fallen but Rafa does have a bit more gravitas as a coach compared to Rodgers and Kenny. That could have helped get you back up quicker.
All speculation, of course, and massively engrained in hindsight so we can't really make that argument in favour of Rafa.
I know he did, but I think he is overrated by a lot of Liverpool fans. I think he was quite lucky in 04/05 and its that that really has created his legend.
He isn't in the same league as Paisley, Shankly or Dalglish IMO, but he was a good Liverpool manager.
Nobody will ever be in the same league as bob and shanks!
Benitez tactically compared to Rodgers was a genius and let's not forget Benitez had to put up with the cowboys and 2 inept CE's!
He had his failings but he was a great manager and if he'd been able to spend £20m + £20m + £25m + £10m + £12m on players in one window he'd have got better than BR did!
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Too much negativity
Page 3 of 4
posted on 14/12/14
"We need to understand that it's not like last season"
It's exactly like last season in terms of we can't defend and are shipping so many easy goals. Some of the defending today (Lovren for third goal) would see you dropped in a Sunday league team.
posted on 14/12/14
Thing is though, arsenal make the champions league every year!
posted on 14/12/14
comment by Kolo's Long Schłong! KLS ⚽️ (U1695)
posted 20 seconds ago
Thing is though, arsenal make the champions league every year!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed and players are swayed by that. That's where we need to get to as we don't have London to attract players.
posted on 14/12/14
posted 1 minute ago
Maybe it was manager???
-----
It was reported that Wenger paid him a visit during the World Cup to convince him to join. Despite what most think in this country Wenger is going to command more respect than Rogers.
posted on 14/12/14
Arsenal show more intent in the market as well
They're very public about their war chest and sign in the 40+ mil range
United are the same
If you're not current favourites, overspending very publicly is the only method that works for getting proven talent
posted on 14/12/14
Too much pressure to fill Suarez's boots, which I feel is the closest we could have ever got for Suarez replacement.
posted on 14/12/14
What was his system at Swansea? Danny Graham up front wasn't it?
posted on 14/12/14
comment by The Kaiser's Trainers (U5676)
posted 23 minutes ago
Arsenal show more intent in the market as well
They're very public about their war chest and sign in the 40+ mil range
United are the same
If you're not current favourites, overspending very publicly is the only method that works for getting proven talent
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense, Arsenal have only ever signed one 40m player, and have only gone over 20m twice in their history (compared to you lot with Carroll, Torres, Lallana, Suarez, Markovic, Downing, Lovren etc etc)
Go and ask the Arsenal fans what they think of their "intent in the market"...
posted on 14/12/14
Rafa had a 5 year plan - failed
Hodgson - failed
Dalglish - failed
Rodgers is failing
The buck stops with the manager whether we like it or not. I hold my hands up, I was vocal towards the end of Rafa's tenure, but it was because I expected more. I'm not apologising for it.
But he's a better manager and has more behind him than Rodgers.
I knew Hodgson as a non-starter and I was proved right.
I was worried about Dalglish taking the job on a permanent basis after his temporary tenure and again FSG let him go.
Sl4g me off all you like for bashing the managers, but like it or not at the end of the day it's always down to them. The only thing I can credit Rodgers for is getting Suarez's head back on track last season, and for signing Coutinho and Sturridge, but that's about all. Suarez still did one and Rodgers still didn't replace him. He's messed up.
posted on 14/12/14
Both Rafa and kenny needed more time
Especially Rafa as the owners destroyed the club not him
posted on 14/12/14
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 14/12/14
Even though I don't like Rafa and don't think he's nearly as good as some Liverpool fans make out, I don't think you can describe his tenure as a failure.
He established Liverpool in the pl and cl apart from that last season where the club was in a complete mess.
Fair play to Rodgers, he brought back some hope to Liverpool but it looks to be short-lived.
posted on 14/12/14
With regard to Rafa, it was unfortunate it all coincided with the H&G thing and the finances. Looking back with that wonderful thing called hindsight, I hold my hands up to that, too, but FSG weren't keen on having him back so we all had to move on. I have to say they aren't coming out of this with any glory, either: they're the ones appointing the managers.
He was a failure in the sense that his aim was the title and we didn't get it, but had he stayed on, who knows?
Will FSG consider him now, Napoli or not? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. It's perhaps not a good idea to go back, Kenny being proof of that.
posted on 14/12/14
If it's any consolation, I don't half miss Rafa, and not just because we're doing pap. I missed him last season, too.
posted on 14/12/14
I think anyone who has a Liverpool title as a proper target any time in the last decade and a half+ is on fairy crack
It's a wish for a perfect storm and a lot of luck, not an actual goal to measure performance
posted on 14/12/14
Just because you didn't win the title doesn't make it a failure. You had no right to expect a title because you aren't/weren't an established title challenging team.
I suppose the fact some may see the inability to win a title as a failure shows how well he did in raising expectation.
posted on 14/12/14
comment by Darren The King Fletcher (U10026)
posted 16 minutes ago
Just because you didn't win the title doesn't make it a failure. You had no right to expect a title because you aren't/weren't an established title challenging team.
I suppose the fact some may see the inability to win a title as a failure shows how well he did in raising expectation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends how you put it into context. Some of us have had to wait 25 years and it looks like we might have to wait even longer. 18 titles but we've never won the Premier League.
We had no right to expect?! Why ever not, pray? So we give up expecting, do we? I see. My bad.
posted on 14/12/14
Rafa wasn't a failure but he wasn't a roaring success either.
He bought a hell of a lot of dross the same as Rodgers apparently has. Generally he did well when he spent big, but that wasn't always the case (Keane, Aquilani, Babel) even Kuyt wasn't really a success as intended as he was brought to be a striker and score goals.
Rafa was very good at setting up teams to be difficult to beat but was also over-cautious at times when more freedom may have brought better results (we had something like 22 0-0 draws in his tenure).
He is a great cup manager but I think his style in the PL makes it difficult to be successful without being the biggest spender, and he isn't going to be the biggest spender with us in the same league as the oil rich clubs.
Rafa doesn't fit how FSG work at all, so I don't see any chance of him coming back while they are owners and no amount of fans pining is going to change that.
They only went for Kenny because they were so new in the job and they needed a bit of stability and to win the fans over for a while.
If they decide Rodgers has had his chance, they will look for another young, progressive manager who works with young talent.
posted on 14/12/14
Righteous
I agree some of Rafa's buys weren't great but when you look at who he wanted and who he got and who brought some of the players. When Rafa identified a player he very rarely got his first choice.
But when he did they where good players!
Reina
Alonso
Torres
Mascherano
When he spent big he usually got it right and he got a lot of stick for some players he never wanted.
Robbie Keane!
posted on 14/12/14
No my point is that you shouldn't expect a title because you weren't an established title winning team. You had a great season in 09, and perhaps you can see it as failure you didn't go on to win it in the end given the position you got yourselves into (same as last season).
However, you weren't one of the top teams in England that was expected to win and challenge for titles. Chelsea were the other side after us that were in that position, but they had a very poor start under Scolari and so it was difficult for them to get back into contention, and you punched above your weight.
You can talk about 18 titles all you like. But it's not been since the 80's that Liverpool have been in a position to expect titles and title challenged year on year. A bitter pill to swallow but the reality of your standing in English football over the last couple of decades.
If you're realistic about that then Rafa did pretty well all things considered - regardless of your inability to win the title.
posted on 14/12/14
All managers can say 'I wanted this player or that player'
At the end of the day the best managers get the best out of whatever players they have, even if they weren't their first choice signings. In very few jobs are they lucky enough to have always get their first choice signings.
Its an easy excuse after not meeting expectations to say 'it wasn't my fault I didn't get the players I wanted'. That argument should end as soon as you get whoever you do get. Get on with the job with the players you have.
posted on 14/12/14
Agree with that but Rafa got a lot right!
posted on 14/12/14
That's true, righteous.
I do wonder, however, whether Rafa would have got more of his targets/done better in the market than Kenny and Brendan have with that money.
Obviously your position in the footballing ladder had fallen but Rafa does have a bit more gravitas as a coach compared to Rodgers and Kenny. That could have helped get you back up quicker.
All speculation, of course, and massively engrained in hindsight so we can't really make that argument in favour of Rafa.
posted on 14/12/14
I know he did, but I think he is overrated by a lot of Liverpool fans. I think he was quite lucky in 04/05 and its that that really has created his legend.
He isn't in the same league as Paisley, Shankly or Dalglish IMO, but he was a good Liverpool manager.
posted on 14/12/14
Nobody will ever be in the same league as bob and shanks!
Benitez tactically compared to Rodgers was a genius and let's not forget Benitez had to put up with the cowboys and 2 inept CE's!
He had his failings but he was a great manager and if he'd been able to spend £20m + £20m + £25m + £10m + £12m on players in one window he'd have got better than BR did!
Page 3 of 4