I agree with what you are saying SE, my point was more that although Mourinho nowadays may get better results (although last year I thought he threw away the league to us to be honest), the style of how he does it is not dissimilar with what you are seeing with LVG.
I've never understood why Mourinho has such a big fan base at Utd, it's weird. I understand why there are big Ronaldo fans at Utd due to his time at OT but the Mourinho worship by some of the fan base is weird, he's the manager of a rival pl team!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Isnt it just? We have plenty of them at Arsenal who worship him too so its not just your lot. Baffling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear. Chelsea are NOT rivals of MUFC. Only recently since their takeover have them been and that's only been down to competition, nothing else.
Liverpool, City, Leeds & Arsenal are our rivals.
Why shouldn't you respect him anyway? He's won so many trophies all over Europe. He's a fantastic coach. Miles better than Wenger.
Like i said, he adopted an approach that has brought him a lot of success. It didn't work last night. Big deal.
He did hit Schalke for 5 away in Germany too this season who gave mighty Madrid a HUGE scare other night. There's two sides to it.
melton
True, but that is what frustrates me so much with LVG, he has shown in the past that he can play attractive football while still insisting on his possession based game. This season it just isn't there and the continual odd decisions and excuses are being tiresome.
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 7 minutes ago
VC
But SE85 is talking about 1 game here, not a number of games.
...............
I am just saying that I hope he takes that comment into consideration and applies it to LVG.
I just don't like seeing double standards being set.
I am sure you don't either.
I happen to think the players are also to blame for some, I repeat, some of the crap we have seen this season. I also said that last year with regards to Moyes.
People can say what they want about me, but I am always pretty fair and reasonable.
VC
Fair enough I agree with that, but I also see SE85's point.
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 13 seconds ago
VC
Fair enough I agree with that, but I also see SE85's point.
...........
I also see his point to a degree, and it is hard to knock Jose for doing something he has been very successful at.
comment by Stretford_Ender85 (U10955)
posted 7 minutes ago
I've never understood why Mourinho has such a big fan base at Utd, it's weird. I understand why there are big Ronaldo fans at Utd due to his time at OT but the Mourinho worship by some of the fan base is weird, he's the manager of a rival pl team!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Isnt it just? We have plenty of them at Arsenal who worship him too so its not just your lot. Baffling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear. Chelsea are NOT rivals of MUFC. Only recently since their takeover have them been and that's only been down to competition, nothing else.
Liverpool, City, Leeds & Arsenal are our rivals.
Why shouldn't you respect him anyway? He's won so many trophies all over Europe. He's a fantastic coach. Miles better than Wenger.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hes a great coach, absolutely no doubt, and will win trophies.....but do i think we could have trusted and rely on him to get Arsenal to the envious position in terms of stadium and finances that we are in today?
Could he continue to win whilst losing his best players every year?
Would have he been willing to forgoe personal glory and achievements to ensure the prosperity of the football club? Rejecting offers from Real and the other best clubs in the world to see through the project?
Mourinho has not lasted more than 3 years anywhere he's been. This is no conicidence.
"Better" manager depends I suppose on what you want from a manager. Trophies or prosperity for your club. Also ask yourself how would Wenger do with unlimited funds and world class players that Mourinho has had access to on many occcasions
"True, but that is what frustrates me so much with LVG, he has shown in the past that he can play attractive football while still insisting on his possession based game. This season it just isn't there and the continual odd decisions and excuses are being tiresome."
Absolutely. I'll reiterate, it's the approach I am talking about that is similar.
I also see his point to a degree, and it is hard to knock Jose for doing something he has been very successful at.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amen. And the truth shall set you free.
He's a pragmatist. is Jose. He's a canny old fox. It isn't going to work all the time.
Fergie won 2 Cl's in about 20 attempts and with the teams we had, that's not awfulby any means but it's not that great either.
Se85, I agree with some of what you're saying but what cannot be disputed is that Jose got it wrong last night.
They started well ceding possession and hitting on the break. But once Ibra was sent off then Jose should have gone for it. He didn't and if anything sat back even more.
Major tactical fail. Why not go for a goal or two and then sit back knowing that PSG would have to go for broke and leave space for Hazard and then later on Willian to run into?
It all depends on your success criteria really. If it's winning trophies by whatever means then Mourinho is absolutely your man.
If it is playing attractive football and less of the dark arts approach then he isn't. For that, then the best candidate is Guardiola or Ancelotti.
It's personal preference, I prefer the latter as I don't like the circus or aggression that Mourinho brings (he's managed to make Costa more aggressive, which I didn't think was possible) but he is a brilliant coach.
It was interesting that the other CL game also had a red and how the home team reacted to it, people will say that's the difference between Pep and Jose and they may have a point. Both great managers though IMO.
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 4 minutes ago
It was interesting that the other CL game also had a red and how the home team reacted to it, people will say that's the difference between Pep and Jose and they may have a point. Both great managers though IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Very similar situations as well. Both Chelsea and Bayern played against 10 men for virtually 90 mins, and were ahead (after Bayern scored from the pen immediately after the sending off) on aggregate and at home.
One manager decided to hold on to their advantage, one decided to take advantage. One manager is out, one is emphatically through.
It was interesting that the other CL game also had a red and how the home team reacted to it, people will say that's the difference between Pep and Jose and they may have a point. Both great managers though IMO.
...............
Very interesting comment there, and true.
We can all remember a certain red going to Nani.
Jose reacted to it by making a change, SAF spent ten minutes arguing with the officials.
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 37 seconds ago
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 4 minutes ago
It was interesting that the other CL game also had a red and how the home team reacted to it, people will say that's the difference between Pep and Jose and they may have a point. Both great managers though IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Very similar situations as well. Both Chelsea and Bayern played against 10 men for virtually 90 mins, and were ahead (after Bayern scored from the pen immediately after the sending off) on aggregate and at home.
One manager decided to hold on to their advantage, one decided to take advantage. One manager is out, one is emphatically through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair though it was not the same situation. Bayern knew they had to go and win as it was on ly 0-0 from the first leg. There was no confusion in the managers or players head, they knew 100% their job before they stepped on the pitch. Once the goals started going in, momentum carried them.
If Chelsea had drawn 0-0 in france rather than 1-1 i honestly think they would have sailed through against 10 men
Se85, I agree with some of what you're saying but what cannot be disputed is that Jose got it wrong last night.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
He did. Name me a manager that doesn't.
And it was fine margins. He was 4 mins from qualifying and conceded a goal from a set piece to take it to extra time which was very unlike Chelsea and very much unlike a Jose team too.
It happens.
Fergie got it wrong against Monaco, Dortmund, Leverkusen, Porto etc....basically most teams we went out too.
Fergie got it wrong against Monaco, Dortmund, Leverkusen, Porto etc....basically most teams we went out too.
...............
And Barcelona twice.
That Monaco one was very frustrating, I think back then we seemed to think a 0-0 away was a very good result, but like when we did the same at Real 2 years later you end up getting too preoccupied with not conceding and you forget to play your own game.
comment by The Godfather (U10154)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 37 seconds ago
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 4 minutes ago
It was interesting that the other CL game also had a red and how the home team reacted to it, people will say that's the difference between Pep and Jose and they may have a point. Both great managers though IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Very similar situations as well. Both Chelsea and Bayern played against 10 men for virtually 90 mins, and were ahead (after Bayern scored from the pen immediately after the sending off) on aggregate and at home.
One manager decided to hold on to their advantage, one decided to take advantage. One manager is out, one is emphatically through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair though it was not the same situation. Bayern knew they had to go and win as it was on ly 0-0 from the first leg. There was no confusion in the managers or players head, they knew 100% their job before they stepped on the pitch. Once the goals started going in, momentum carried them.
If Chelsea had drawn 0-0 in france rather than 1-1 i honestly think they would have sailed through against 10 men
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Similar situations I said. Obviously they werent exactly the same. But both played against 10 men for practically 90 mins, knowing all they had to do was hold onto their advantage and they were through. Chelsea decided to stick and got caught, Bayern decided to twist and battered their opponents.
That Monaco one was very frustrating, I think back then we seemed to think a 0-0 away was a very good result, but like when we did the same at Real 2 years later you end up getting too preoccupied with not conceding and you forget to play your own game.
...........
I think this was often the case with SAF in Europe.
When you read his books you can see that he put a lot of thought into containing the star players of other teams.
Sometimes he forgot that we were Manchester United and that we should let them concentrate on us.
It is quite strange really, Arsene is the complete opposite.
Somwhere between the two is the fine line to take.
I think this was often the case with SAF in Europe.
When you read his books you can see that he put a lot of thought into containing the star players of other teams.
Sometimes he forgot that we were Manchester United and that we should let them concentrate on us.
It is quite strange really, Arsene is the complete opposite.
Somwhere between the two is the fine line to take.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From 06/07 onwards, I think Sir Alex did a very good job of this with Barcelona 2011 being by far his biggest error.
It was a pity how Real in 2013 ended as he was half and hour away from one of his finest European performances.
Ferguson knew how much that red f-cked up his final chance of European success. I thought he had his tactics up until that point in both legs just right. The red seemed to stun him and he was too slow to react and Jose punished us.
comment by AlwaysUnited (U4063)
posted 3 hours, 51 minutes ago
Well watch out for a lot more "crimes" because every remaining team, bar one, will receive the same fate as Jose's boys before end of season.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
That makes no sense.
I didn't even hint that being knocked out in general was a crime, the nature of Chelsea's exit in particular was the crime.
I would not expect a supposedly top European side to bow out in such a timid, pathetic way with an extra man for an hour and a half.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember when we beat Barcelona away whilst being 2-0 down and a man down? These things happen in football.
In those barca finals I doubt it would have made any difference what way fergie played, that barca team were just many levels above us.
Sign in if you want to comment
Mourinho
Page 3 of 4
posted on 12/3/15
I agree with what you are saying SE, my point was more that although Mourinho nowadays may get better results (although last year I thought he threw away the league to us to be honest), the style of how he does it is not dissimilar with what you are seeing with LVG.
posted on 12/3/15
I've never understood why Mourinho has such a big fan base at Utd, it's weird. I understand why there are big Ronaldo fans at Utd due to his time at OT but the Mourinho worship by some of the fan base is weird, he's the manager of a rival pl team!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Isnt it just? We have plenty of them at Arsenal who worship him too so its not just your lot. Baffling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear. Chelsea are NOT rivals of MUFC. Only recently since their takeover have them been and that's only been down to competition, nothing else.
Liverpool, City, Leeds & Arsenal are our rivals.
Why shouldn't you respect him anyway? He's won so many trophies all over Europe. He's a fantastic coach. Miles better than Wenger.
posted on 12/3/15
Like i said, he adopted an approach that has brought him a lot of success. It didn't work last night. Big deal.
He did hit Schalke for 5 away in Germany too this season who gave mighty Madrid a HUGE scare other night. There's two sides to it.
posted on 12/3/15
melton
True, but that is what frustrates me so much with LVG, he has shown in the past that he can play attractive football while still insisting on his possession based game. This season it just isn't there and the continual odd decisions and excuses are being tiresome.
posted on 12/3/15
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 7 minutes ago
VC
But SE85 is talking about 1 game here, not a number of games.
...............
I am just saying that I hope he takes that comment into consideration and applies it to LVG.
I just don't like seeing double standards being set.
I am sure you don't either.
I happen to think the players are also to blame for some, I repeat, some of the crap we have seen this season. I also said that last year with regards to Moyes.
People can say what they want about me, but I am always pretty fair and reasonable.
posted on 12/3/15
VC
Fair enough I agree with that, but I also see SE85's point.
posted on 12/3/15
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 13 seconds ago
VC
Fair enough I agree with that, but I also see SE85's point.
...........
I also see his point to a degree, and it is hard to knock Jose for doing something he has been very successful at.
posted on 12/3/15
comment by Stretford_Ender85 (U10955)
posted 7 minutes ago
I've never understood why Mourinho has such a big fan base at Utd, it's weird. I understand why there are big Ronaldo fans at Utd due to his time at OT but the Mourinho worship by some of the fan base is weird, he's the manager of a rival pl team!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Isnt it just? We have plenty of them at Arsenal who worship him too so its not just your lot. Baffling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear. Chelsea are NOT rivals of MUFC. Only recently since their takeover have them been and that's only been down to competition, nothing else.
Liverpool, City, Leeds & Arsenal are our rivals.
Why shouldn't you respect him anyway? He's won so many trophies all over Europe. He's a fantastic coach. Miles better than Wenger.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hes a great coach, absolutely no doubt, and will win trophies.....but do i think we could have trusted and rely on him to get Arsenal to the envious position in terms of stadium and finances that we are in today?
Could he continue to win whilst losing his best players every year?
Would have he been willing to forgoe personal glory and achievements to ensure the prosperity of the football club? Rejecting offers from Real and the other best clubs in the world to see through the project?
Mourinho has not lasted more than 3 years anywhere he's been. This is no conicidence.
"Better" manager depends I suppose on what you want from a manager. Trophies or prosperity for your club. Also ask yourself how would Wenger do with unlimited funds and world class players that Mourinho has had access to on many occcasions
posted on 12/3/15
"True, but that is what frustrates me so much with LVG, he has shown in the past that he can play attractive football while still insisting on his possession based game. This season it just isn't there and the continual odd decisions and excuses are being tiresome."
Absolutely. I'll reiterate, it's the approach I am talking about that is similar.
posted on 12/3/15
I also see his point to a degree, and it is hard to knock Jose for doing something he has been very successful at.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amen. And the truth shall set you free.
He's a pragmatist. is Jose. He's a canny old fox. It isn't going to work all the time.
Fergie won 2 Cl's in about 20 attempts and with the teams we had, that's not awfulby any means but it's not that great either.
posted on 12/3/15
Se85, I agree with some of what you're saying but what cannot be disputed is that Jose got it wrong last night.
They started well ceding possession and hitting on the break. But once Ibra was sent off then Jose should have gone for it. He didn't and if anything sat back even more.
Major tactical fail. Why not go for a goal or two and then sit back knowing that PSG would have to go for broke and leave space for Hazard and then later on Willian to run into?
posted on 12/3/15
It all depends on your success criteria really. If it's winning trophies by whatever means then Mourinho is absolutely your man.
If it is playing attractive football and less of the dark arts approach then he isn't. For that, then the best candidate is Guardiola or Ancelotti.
It's personal preference, I prefer the latter as I don't like the circus or aggression that Mourinho brings (he's managed to make Costa more aggressive, which I didn't think was possible) but he is a brilliant coach.
posted on 12/3/15
It was interesting that the other CL game also had a red and how the home team reacted to it, people will say that's the difference between Pep and Jose and they may have a point. Both great managers though IMO.
posted on 12/3/15
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 4 minutes ago
It was interesting that the other CL game also had a red and how the home team reacted to it, people will say that's the difference between Pep and Jose and they may have a point. Both great managers though IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Very similar situations as well. Both Chelsea and Bayern played against 10 men for virtually 90 mins, and were ahead (after Bayern scored from the pen immediately after the sending off) on aggregate and at home.
One manager decided to hold on to their advantage, one decided to take advantage. One manager is out, one is emphatically through.
posted on 12/3/15
It was interesting that the other CL game also had a red and how the home team reacted to it, people will say that's the difference between Pep and Jose and they may have a point. Both great managers though IMO.
...............
Very interesting comment there, and true.
We can all remember a certain red going to Nani.
Jose reacted to it by making a change, SAF spent ten minutes arguing with the officials.
posted on 12/3/15
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 37 seconds ago
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 4 minutes ago
It was interesting that the other CL game also had a red and how the home team reacted to it, people will say that's the difference between Pep and Jose and they may have a point. Both great managers though IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Very similar situations as well. Both Chelsea and Bayern played against 10 men for virtually 90 mins, and were ahead (after Bayern scored from the pen immediately after the sending off) on aggregate and at home.
One manager decided to hold on to their advantage, one decided to take advantage. One manager is out, one is emphatically through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair though it was not the same situation. Bayern knew they had to go and win as it was on ly 0-0 from the first leg. There was no confusion in the managers or players head, they knew 100% their job before they stepped on the pitch. Once the goals started going in, momentum carried them.
If Chelsea had drawn 0-0 in france rather than 1-1 i honestly think they would have sailed through against 10 men
posted on 12/3/15
Se85, I agree with some of what you're saying but what cannot be disputed is that Jose got it wrong last night.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
He did. Name me a manager that doesn't.
And it was fine margins. He was 4 mins from qualifying and conceded a goal from a set piece to take it to extra time which was very unlike Chelsea and very much unlike a Jose team too.
It happens.
Fergie got it wrong against Monaco, Dortmund, Leverkusen, Porto etc....basically most teams we went out too.
posted on 12/3/15
Fergie got it wrong against Monaco, Dortmund, Leverkusen, Porto etc....basically most teams we went out too.
...............
And Barcelona twice.
posted on 12/3/15
That Monaco one was very frustrating, I think back then we seemed to think a 0-0 away was a very good result, but like when we did the same at Real 2 years later you end up getting too preoccupied with not conceding and you forget to play your own game.
posted on 12/3/15
comment by The Godfather (U10154)
posted 12 minutes ago
comment by Barf Vader (U15867)
posted 37 seconds ago
comment by manutd1982 (U6633)
posted 4 minutes ago
It was interesting that the other CL game also had a red and how the home team reacted to it, people will say that's the difference between Pep and Jose and they may have a point. Both great managers though IMO.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Very similar situations as well. Both Chelsea and Bayern played against 10 men for virtually 90 mins, and were ahead (after Bayern scored from the pen immediately after the sending off) on aggregate and at home.
One manager decided to hold on to their advantage, one decided to take advantage. One manager is out, one is emphatically through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair though it was not the same situation. Bayern knew they had to go and win as it was on ly 0-0 from the first leg. There was no confusion in the managers or players head, they knew 100% their job before they stepped on the pitch. Once the goals started going in, momentum carried them.
If Chelsea had drawn 0-0 in france rather than 1-1 i honestly think they would have sailed through against 10 men
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Similar situations I said. Obviously they werent exactly the same. But both played against 10 men for practically 90 mins, knowing all they had to do was hold onto their advantage and they were through. Chelsea decided to stick and got caught, Bayern decided to twist and battered their opponents.
posted on 12/3/15
That Monaco one was very frustrating, I think back then we seemed to think a 0-0 away was a very good result, but like when we did the same at Real 2 years later you end up getting too preoccupied with not conceding and you forget to play your own game.
...........
I think this was often the case with SAF in Europe.
When you read his books you can see that he put a lot of thought into containing the star players of other teams.
Sometimes he forgot that we were Manchester United and that we should let them concentrate on us.
It is quite strange really, Arsene is the complete opposite.
Somwhere between the two is the fine line to take.
posted on 12/3/15
I think this was often the case with SAF in Europe.
When you read his books you can see that he put a lot of thought into containing the star players of other teams.
Sometimes he forgot that we were Manchester United and that we should let them concentrate on us.
It is quite strange really, Arsene is the complete opposite.
Somwhere between the two is the fine line to take.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From 06/07 onwards, I think Sir Alex did a very good job of this with Barcelona 2011 being by far his biggest error.
It was a pity how Real in 2013 ended as he was half and hour away from one of his finest European performances.
posted on 12/3/15
Ferguson knew how much that red f-cked up his final chance of European success. I thought he had his tactics up until that point in both legs just right. The red seemed to stun him and he was too slow to react and Jose punished us.
posted on 12/3/15
comment by AlwaysUnited (U4063)
posted 3 hours, 51 minutes ago
Well watch out for a lot more "crimes" because every remaining team, bar one, will receive the same fate as Jose's boys before end of season.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
That makes no sense.
I didn't even hint that being knocked out in general was a crime, the nature of Chelsea's exit in particular was the crime.
I would not expect a supposedly top European side to bow out in such a timid, pathetic way with an extra man for an hour and a half.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember when we beat Barcelona away whilst being 2-0 down and a man down? These things happen in football.
posted on 12/3/15
In those barca finals I doubt it would have made any difference what way fergie played, that barca team were just many levels above us.
Page 3 of 4