We should all take a minute to remember that Jenius was desperate for Arsenal to sign Thomas Ince a year ago.
He would rather Arsenal were fighting relegation with an all English team than being successful with a host of French players.
Jenius you are far wide of the mark. The problem lies deeper. The top english players get their chances, there just aren't enough of them. Arsenal youth teamers and league 2 players can afford range rovers on a few months salary. Too much is made in this country of being financially successful rather than reaching ones potential.
Playing 11 a side on a field of mud every sunday did nothing to improve my skills. 5 a side and 7 a side should be used alongside 11s at every stage of a players development. In the current system most lightweight technical players do not get a chance to develop.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
Quotas don't improve players, they dilute quality.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it does boil down to this.
Making clubs play a certain number of HG players will only increase the supply of HG players in absolute numbers, but it does not necessarily mean there will be more quality HG players as a result of that.
This is currently happening in Russia. The very best HG players get picked on merit, of course, but there is a whole caste of HG players who will get picked regardless of their ability simply because there is a quota and they happen to have the right passport.
This experience shows there is a high and genuine risk that merely having a quota system which is not supplemented by an additional input of quality players will breed complacency and perpetuate mediocrity.
The EPL hit its peak between 2005 and 2010. 2010 the quota came in and suddenly spain and germany overtake us in europe. coincidence i think not.
----------
It is a coincidence, actually.
It was around this time many of the best players at the top pl clubs left or started to age.
Bayern Munich appointed Van Gaal and bought Robben and became a better team. Ronaldo went to Madrid, and after Pel failing Mourinho went there and made them semi final regulars. Pep created arguably the greatest team of all time.
There is no correlation whatsoever, especially as United were the only side that were filling their squad with homegrown players around this time, which is something Ferguson always did anyway, not because of an enforced quota - which isn't actually forcing a team to fill their squad with homegrown players, as Chelsea showed.
Jenius you are far wide of the mark. The problem lies deeper. The top english players get their chances, there just aren't enough of them.
-----------------------------------------------
I disagree. Players don't get chances. The fact is 10 years ago mid-table teams relied heavily on English youngsters and they fed the top teams with their best real homegrown players. Certain teams and I shameful to say Arsenal were at the vanguard who took advantage of the rules and started bringing in younger foreign players. Arsenal were forced to a certain extent because we couldn't afford the high priced top foreign talent whilst funding the Emirates. We created an Ivory Coast team in Belgium to circumvent EU rules ffs.
Whats happened since is those mid-tables English teams have caught onto Wenger's 'third stream' ie making profits from quick transfers. (Something Newcastle are pretty special at doing recently). Thats meant teams not only in mid-lower levels in the premiership, but now also the Championship are filling their squads with 'name only' homegrown players. That means English players just don't get a chance. It doesn't matter if they are good enough or not because foreign players, even mediocre ones are easy to move for a small profit. They don't have to be bought by big clubs anymore. These rules whether you like them or not are only to slightly tip the balance in forcing clubs to actually promote English players as they used to in the past.
Now if those English players are not good enough as you suggest because of other reasons, those clubs will be forced to change their coaching styles. The clubs are literally NOT incentivised to work on English players whilst they can make quick money of foreign stars.
I'd only lower age to 15 and that's it
Making clubs play a certain number of HG players will only increase the supply of HG players in absolute numbers, but it does not necessarily mean there will be more quality HG players as a result of that.
-----------------------------
I agree, above actually that in the short term standards will drop. But rules and strategies are created for 10 year terms and you have to start somewhere. And as clubs are forced to rely on these players more and more, they will have to improve their coaching and scouting standards to compete.
And this is not just a feeling that is particular to the FA. The Italians, Spanish and recently by the Front National in France, Greece means its only going to grow whether Arsenal fans who are used to more foreign based teams like it or not. Funnily enough, Arsenal are probably the best geared to deal with the fall out compared to other teams.
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 6 hours, 49 minutes ago
We should all take a minute to remember that Jenius was desperate for Arsenal to sign Thomas Ince a year ago.
He would rather Arsenal were fighting relegation with an all English team than being successful with a host of French players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Persecute me for being English and liking English players in England.
And you wonder why UKIP is rising in this country and I am not even lilly white.
And by the way the only player I have really supported over Arsenal in my life is Henry (who I have met). A French Black man.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Forcing teams to play more English players doesn't make them better if they are not naturally talented enough.
We need a proper training system. Create the b teams and/or partnership clubs. Improve academies. Create football apprenticeships. Promote football in School by forming more county and national competitions. Try and get kids off their playstations and play outside more. Make certain age groups play 11 a side's on smaller pitches. Introduce 5/6 a side leagues for kids. Introduce a certain playing style that works at a young age. Keep them playing that style from then and to the seniors. Reward teams for playing and keeping English players but don't force them.
Some if not all of these will do much more than what they are proposing
DJ
IMO Resources simply need to be pumped into football facilities that are free to use for all. Get the country back into playing football, kids, their dads etc... Take a % of every Prem transfer or some sort of Pro football tax that goes directly to grass roots - these aren't great ideas but this is where they need to start.
Growing up around where I did the best place we could find for footy was a muddy field where goal posts were only up during match days. This is hardly encouraging youngsters to practice outside of organised training sessions and match days (which parents pay through the nose for).
As an adult I paid anything from £5 to £12 for a quick game of footy on a tiny AstroTurf pitch. 11 aside was occasionally better value but more often than not it's the same awful pitches that are more suited to rugby than they are to football.
As a country we need to make playing footy a normal part of life again, might help our growing obesity issues too.
The next thing we need to do is get more qualified coaches. Off set the cost of coaching badges with funds from the Prem. Also, youngsters who drop out of academies should be encouraged into coaching - not necessarily as a career but an extra string to their bow.
The quotas are an absolute joke and bottle job by the FA.
comment by Super Kami Guru (U9880)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
Forcing teams to play more English players doesn't make them better if they are not naturally talented enough.
We need a proper training system. Create the b teams and/or partnership clubs. Improve academies. Create football apprenticeships. Promote football in School by forming more county and national competitions. Try and get kids off their playstations and play outside more. Make certain age groups play 11 a side's on smaller pitches. Introduce 5/6 a side leagues for kids. Introduce a certain playing style that works at a young age. Keep them playing that style from then and to the seniors. Reward teams for playing and keeping English players but don't force them.
Some if not all of these will do much more than what they are proposing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Spot on
I think the problem is that would quite clearly put a lot of pressure on the FA to pull it off and they're all to happy to simply point fingers and change rules rather than actually put in solid large scale work.
Jenius I agree that it may improve quality, but it is a very inefficient method of doing so and the roof is far lower than if others have been saying we improve the roots of the game.
England have always had a particular style that no other nation chooses to use, bar maybe the home nations. Wales have progressed far more than England. Bale and Ramsey would be Englands two best players.
Are you trying to convince us that these players deserve to be part of the Arsenal first team? That they would improve vastly so they are not struggling to get games in the lower leagues but turning England into a power in international football?
-------------------------------
No what I am saying is that Arsenal should have fired Liam Brady long before they did if they had taken seriously the problem that they weren't producing talent good enough to start. And if you want to know my opinion on Brady just google BBC 606.
This is the problem with most academies at the moment. The clubs don't take coaching nor setups seriously enough. And there are good academies but they are just in the minority. Just look at Southampton for an academy that is working.
I have not once said that I am advocating all English quotas. My view is that you have to look past the club and manager self-interest. The only way to do that is force teams to start taking their responsibilities to the community seriously.
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FA Proposals
Page 4 of 4
posted on 3/4/15
We should all take a minute to remember that Jenius was desperate for Arsenal to sign Thomas Ince a year ago.
He would rather Arsenal were fighting relegation with an all English team than being successful with a host of French players.
posted on 3/4/15
Jenius you are far wide of the mark. The problem lies deeper. The top english players get their chances, there just aren't enough of them. Arsenal youth teamers and league 2 players can afford range rovers on a few months salary. Too much is made in this country of being financially successful rather than reaching ones potential.
Playing 11 a side on a field of mud every sunday did nothing to improve my skills. 5 a side and 7 a side should be used alongside 11s at every stage of a players development. In the current system most lightweight technical players do not get a chance to develop.
posted on 3/4/15
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
Quotas don't improve players, they dilute quality.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it does boil down to this.
Making clubs play a certain number of HG players will only increase the supply of HG players in absolute numbers, but it does not necessarily mean there will be more quality HG players as a result of that.
This is currently happening in Russia. The very best HG players get picked on merit, of course, but there is a whole caste of HG players who will get picked regardless of their ability simply because there is a quota and they happen to have the right passport.
This experience shows there is a high and genuine risk that merely having a quota system which is not supplemented by an additional input of quality players will breed complacency and perpetuate mediocrity.
posted on 3/4/15
The EPL hit its peak between 2005 and 2010. 2010 the quota came in and suddenly spain and germany overtake us in europe. coincidence i think not.
----------
It is a coincidence, actually.
It was around this time many of the best players at the top pl clubs left or started to age.
Bayern Munich appointed Van Gaal and bought Robben and became a better team. Ronaldo went to Madrid, and after Pel failing Mourinho went there and made them semi final regulars. Pep created arguably the greatest team of all time.
There is no correlation whatsoever, especially as United were the only side that were filling their squad with homegrown players around this time, which is something Ferguson always did anyway, not because of an enforced quota - which isn't actually forcing a team to fill their squad with homegrown players, as Chelsea showed.
posted on 3/4/15
Jenius you are far wide of the mark. The problem lies deeper. The top english players get their chances, there just aren't enough of them.
-----------------------------------------------
I disagree. Players don't get chances. The fact is 10 years ago mid-table teams relied heavily on English youngsters and they fed the top teams with their best real homegrown players. Certain teams and I shameful to say Arsenal were at the vanguard who took advantage of the rules and started bringing in younger foreign players. Arsenal were forced to a certain extent because we couldn't afford the high priced top foreign talent whilst funding the Emirates. We created an Ivory Coast team in Belgium to circumvent EU rules ffs.
Whats happened since is those mid-tables English teams have caught onto Wenger's 'third stream' ie making profits from quick transfers. (Something Newcastle are pretty special at doing recently). Thats meant teams not only in mid-lower levels in the premiership, but now also the Championship are filling their squads with 'name only' homegrown players. That means English players just don't get a chance. It doesn't matter if they are good enough or not because foreign players, even mediocre ones are easy to move for a small profit. They don't have to be bought by big clubs anymore. These rules whether you like them or not are only to slightly tip the balance in forcing clubs to actually promote English players as they used to in the past.
Now if those English players are not good enough as you suggest because of other reasons, those clubs will be forced to change their coaching styles. The clubs are literally NOT incentivised to work on English players whilst they can make quick money of foreign stars.
posted on 3/4/15
I'd only lower age to 15 and that's it
posted on 3/4/15
Making clubs play a certain number of HG players will only increase the supply of HG players in absolute numbers, but it does not necessarily mean there will be more quality HG players as a result of that.
-----------------------------
I agree, above actually that in the short term standards will drop. But rules and strategies are created for 10 year terms and you have to start somewhere. And as clubs are forced to rely on these players more and more, they will have to improve their coaching and scouting standards to compete.
And this is not just a feeling that is particular to the FA. The Italians, Spanish and recently by the Front National in France, Greece means its only going to grow whether Arsenal fans who are used to more foreign based teams like it or not. Funnily enough, Arsenal are probably the best geared to deal with the fall out compared to other teams.
posted on 3/4/15
comment by D'Jeezus Mackaroni (U1137)
posted 6 hours, 49 minutes ago
We should all take a minute to remember that Jenius was desperate for Arsenal to sign Thomas Ince a year ago.
He would rather Arsenal were fighting relegation with an all English team than being successful with a host of French players.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Persecute me for being English and liking English players in England.
And you wonder why UKIP is rising in this country and I am not even lilly white.
posted on 3/4/15
And by the way the only player I have really supported over Arsenal in my life is Henry (who I have met). A French Black man.
posted on 4/4/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 4/4/15
Forcing teams to play more English players doesn't make them better if they are not naturally talented enough.
We need a proper training system. Create the b teams and/or partnership clubs. Improve academies. Create football apprenticeships. Promote football in School by forming more county and national competitions. Try and get kids off their playstations and play outside more. Make certain age groups play 11 a side's on smaller pitches. Introduce 5/6 a side leagues for kids. Introduce a certain playing style that works at a young age. Keep them playing that style from then and to the seniors. Reward teams for playing and keeping English players but don't force them.
Some if not all of these will do much more than what they are proposing
posted on 4/4/15
DJ
IMO Resources simply need to be pumped into football facilities that are free to use for all. Get the country back into playing football, kids, their dads etc... Take a % of every Prem transfer or some sort of Pro football tax that goes directly to grass roots - these aren't great ideas but this is where they need to start.
Growing up around where I did the best place we could find for footy was a muddy field where goal posts were only up during match days. This is hardly encouraging youngsters to practice outside of organised training sessions and match days (which parents pay through the nose for).
As an adult I paid anything from £5 to £12 for a quick game of footy on a tiny AstroTurf pitch. 11 aside was occasionally better value but more often than not it's the same awful pitches that are more suited to rugby than they are to football.
As a country we need to make playing footy a normal part of life again, might help our growing obesity issues too.
The next thing we need to do is get more qualified coaches. Off set the cost of coaching badges with funds from the Prem. Also, youngsters who drop out of academies should be encouraged into coaching - not necessarily as a career but an extra string to their bow.
The quotas are an absolute joke and bottle job by the FA.
posted on 4/4/15
comment by Super Kami Guru (U9880)
posted 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
Forcing teams to play more English players doesn't make them better if they are not naturally talented enough.
We need a proper training system. Create the b teams and/or partnership clubs. Improve academies. Create football apprenticeships. Promote football in School by forming more county and national competitions. Try and get kids off their playstations and play outside more. Make certain age groups play 11 a side's on smaller pitches. Introduce 5/6 a side leagues for kids. Introduce a certain playing style that works at a young age. Keep them playing that style from then and to the seniors. Reward teams for playing and keeping English players but don't force them.
Some if not all of these will do much more than what they are proposing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Spot on
I think the problem is that would quite clearly put a lot of pressure on the FA to pull it off and they're all to happy to simply point fingers and change rules rather than actually put in solid large scale work.
posted on 4/4/15
Jenius I agree that it may improve quality, but it is a very inefficient method of doing so and the roof is far lower than if others have been saying we improve the roots of the game.
England have always had a particular style that no other nation chooses to use, bar maybe the home nations. Wales have progressed far more than England. Bale and Ramsey would be Englands two best players.
posted on 5/4/15
Are you trying to convince us that these players deserve to be part of the Arsenal first team? That they would improve vastly so they are not struggling to get games in the lower leagues but turning England into a power in international football?
-------------------------------
No what I am saying is that Arsenal should have fired Liam Brady long before they did if they had taken seriously the problem that they weren't producing talent good enough to start. And if you want to know my opinion on Brady just google BBC 606.
This is the problem with most academies at the moment. The clubs don't take coaching nor setups seriously enough. And there are good academies but they are just in the minority. Just look at Southampton for an academy that is working.
I have not once said that I am advocating all English quotas. My view is that you have to look past the club and manager self-interest. The only way to do that is force teams to start taking their responsibilities to the community seriously.
Page 4 of 4