comment by Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)
posted 3 minutes ago
"I don't see any merit in those who are only against plutocracy and
colonialism as long as it is
Western plutocracy and
colonialism."
I ramble more about Western hypocrisy. Russia are rogues and they know who they are - despite their propaganda. But you get the feeling the West actually believes a lot of the hypocritical bul.lsh.it it spouts with no self-awareness or shame. It baffles me, personally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Amazing. It's 9.27 and we've already had the most stupid comment of the day. It can't be beaten.
John Brown
I have to tell you that Russia in fact did spend centuries plundering other countries, it's just they restricted themselves to those they could get to by land.
There were 15 states subjugated by Russia in the USSR, plus the vast tracts of Asia they made part of the Russian state. Russia still exerts huge amounts of influence on those 15 and Ukraine is a good example of how Russia reacts when one of them tries to exert real independence.
Basically the FA will just threaten to boycott every World Cup until England are given it.
"If you think what Russia are currently (key word being currently) doing can be compared to something that the UK aren't currently doing means that the UK is just as unsuitable as Russia to host a world cup then you're deluded and just seem to be defending Russia because they're your current cause."
I can't tell if you have serious comprehension issues or you're just being deliberately thick. I'm not making a grading system for who has caused more havoc. I'm stating you have zero problems with what the West are doing and it doesn't figure in your consciousness when talking about the UK's hosting ability. You hypocritically apply it to Russia cos you're clearly prejudiced against Russia. Oh....are we now focussing on "currently"? The length this fella would go to manipulate any argument is damn funny.
I guess it's okay the several hundred thousands have died in Iraq due to a hare-brained invasion and a resulting endless wave of insurgency just because Britain withdrew its troops a few years ago. That makes it alright then, eh? The same British who just last year were debating military intervention in Syria in parliament and almost armed rebels many of who currently fight with ISIS. Amusingly, it was evil Russia who were the biggest peacemakers in the Syrian crisis.
FIFA will well and truly learn their lesson when England reach the 2022 World Cup final in Qatar and there's nobody back in Blighty watching on telly.
When I use the term currently it's because... There will be a world cup in that part of the world! Currently! And the situation there will most probably get worse.
You seem a very immature person if you use terms like me 'hating' Russia and how I apply zero problems with the west.
What is most important and what I'm arguing is for the safety of the match going fans. I've told you about the very real problems with racism and homophobia. You seem to gloss over these in your quest to cry hypocrisy.
If the problems in the balkans escalate and Russia extends it's hegemony over the region it makes a world cup in Russia a very dangerous prospect. We've already seen a passenger jet shot down over that region due to the conflict. Russia are currently violating the Minsk agreement which Ieads me to believe that the situation is going to get worse.
Im talking about current problems. Real problems. But you keep talking about your own dislikes of the West as if the world cup suddenly being given to the UK would be as potentially unsafe as a Russian world cup would be. Not the case at all
"You as a black person
should see just how bad it is in Russia for black people. Would you feel safe going there? And if
not why would you want to send other black people there"
A lot of black people have it bad in Poland, Ukraine, China etc. It didn't stop them hosting highly successful tournaments. It wouldn't stop Russia. They've hosted summer and winter olympic events and athletic meets and they were great tournaments, even though the West drove themselves to hysteria predicting doom as they ALWAYS do before the tourneys. Most Russians have probably never spoken to a black person before. It doesn't mean I'll sit behind my keyboard sermonizing about it.
comment by Robb Lannister - #stingrayForSepp (U20351)
posted 1 minute ago
When I use the term currently it's because... There will be a world cup in that part of the world! Currently! And the situation there will most probably get worse.
You seem a very immature person if you use terms like me 'hating' Russia and how I apply zero problems with the west.
What is most important and what I'm arguing is for the safety of the match going fans. I've told you about the very real problems with racism and homophobia. You seem to gloss over these in your quest to cry hypocrisy.
If the problems in the balkans escalate and Russia extends it's hegemony over the region it makes a world cup in Russia a very dangerous prospect. We've already seen a passenger jet shot down over that region due to the conflict. Russia are currently violating the Minsk agreement which Ieads me to believe that the situation is going to get worse.
Im talking about current problems. Real problems. But you keep talking about your own dislikes of the West as if the world cup suddenly being given to the UK would be as potentially unsafe as a Russian world cup would be. Not the case at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Those racism problems in Ukraine really came to the fore at Euro 2012, didn't they
Just as the BBC and FA predicted.
"When I use the term currently it's because... There will be a world
cup in that part of the world! Currently! And the situation there will most probably get worse."
No, those rationalizations entered your argument when your initial moral arguments were deconstructed for its hypocrisy. As for the Ukrainian civil war, I can tell you it has ZERO chance of spilling over to the Russian side. Zero. Even if Russia soldiers poured over the border to invade Ukraine, the war will never be fought on Russian soil. It affects nothing in Russia other than a few parents who don't know if their children in the Russian army have died inside Ukraine.
I can promise you that if Russia invades Ukraine the world cup will be taken away from that part of the world
I can't help but laugh when I see on the first pages of the thread someone claim Russia shouldn't host the WC on moral grounds. That coming from someone from a country alongside the US invaded and destroyed Iraq for their oil is hilarious!!
It's ok. Spain & Portugal are ready.
Sheriff John Brown
You did downplay the shortcomings of the Russian state, both in your general stance that we have no right to condemn it (as if doing so makes us defenders of UK foreign policy) and the specific (and ludicrous) claim about the thriving gay community in Russia.
However, I will grant that it's fair to object to grandstanding about Russian foreign policy on the part of those who have never lost sleep over recent Western colonial adventures. Not least the neocon hawks in the US, who presided over the ravaging of Latin America in order to prop up often brutal client states.
I'm personally ambivalent about the idea of stripping Russia of the World Cup on the basis of its crimes in relation to Ukraine. On one hand, I despair at Putin's utter cynicism relating to the sacrifice of lives and at the way the situation is being used to consolidate an authoritarian, ultra-conservative regime domestically. On the other, I'm not sure what effect losing the World Cup would have on Russia, other than entrenching the narrative that the West is bent on bringing the country down. There is a risk that the hateful rhetoric Putin is encouraging takes on a momentum in which genuine fanatics come to power (I see Putin ultimately as a power-hungry pragmatist). I'm inclined to say Russia should only be stripped of the tournament if it is proved that they bribed their way to winning it. In that case, it's entirely proper that the decision is reversed and it's more likely that the situation will undermine the Putin narrative, rather than reinforce it.
Yeah, why not let Spain have the tournament? They've won it once and have only hosted it once......therefore that equals a god given right to host it, regardless of the quality of their bid...right?
Spain/(Portugal) actually bid for 2018 and only got 2 votes less than Russia in the first round.
England only got 2 votes less than...err...only got 2 votes
"I can promise you that if Russia invades Ukraine the world cup will be taken away from that part of the world"
No, it won't. Believe it or not, the Western hysteria over Russia's activities doesn't interest most of the world in the slightest. What the fack does a Brazilian, Chinese, Mexican or Nigerian FIFA commitee care about the war in Ukraine?
comment by Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)
posted 11 seconds ago
"I can promise you that if Russia invades Ukraine the world cup will be taken away from that part of the world"
No, it won't. Believe it or not, the Western hysteria over Russia's activities doesn't interest most of the world in the slightest. What the fack does a Brazilian, Chinese, Mexican or Nigerian FIFA commitee care about the war in Ukraine?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brazil and China probably care a little bit with regards to their BRICS bank
They were lucky it was Brazil and not Portugal, eh.
comment by Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)
posted 4 minutes ago
"I can promise you that if Russia invades Ukraine the world cup will be taken away from that part of the world"
No, it won't. Believe it or not, the Western hysteria over Russia's activities doesn't interest most of the world in the slightest. What the fack does a Brazilian, Chinese, Mexican or Nigerian FIFA commitee care about the war in Ukraine?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry, I'm out. It actually hurts my brain to debate with someone who thinks a Russian invasion of Ukraine won't lead to some pretty massive consequences and ones that will obviously lead to the world cup being taken away from Russia.
John Brown
The biggest issue with your "reasoning" is that you appear to believe that because the western democracies aren't perfect that makes criticism of other states with far greater faults invalid.
That stand point is nonsense.
comment by itsonlyagame - #freeSanti (U6426)
posted 7 minutes ago
They were lucky it was Brazil and not Portugal, eh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That was in reference to the BRICS, by the way.
"You did downplay the shortcomings of the Russian state, both in your general stance that we have no right to condemn it (as if doing so makes us defenders of UK foreign policy) and the specific (and ludicrous) claim about the thriving gay community in Russia."
You're horribly distorting my comments. I never said anyone had no right to criticize Russia. I was merely out to ensure their views were consistent when applied to Western countries and predictably, their hypocrisy was exposed. It's like an argument I had with a class mate recently who said Chinese people eating dogs was savagery. While I didn't necessarily agree or disagree, I sought to make sure she was vegetarian who didn't eat any meat at all. Else, it was just hypocrisy. I wouldn't have any such problems if she went all Morrisey and said "meat is murder".
side bar, it's not the eating of dogs that is savagery
It's the fact that many are kept in deliberately cramped conditions as it's believed to improve the flavour. It's not hypocrisy to eat meat but be against both that and say the crated veal trade in Europe. The problem is your arguments are overly simplistic.
"I'm sorry, I'm out. It actually hurts my brain to debate with someone who thinks a Russian invasion of Ukraine won't lead to some pretty massive consequences"
That would portray you as severely deluded and you don't understand how the world works. The worst that could happen in that case is some countries boycotting the World Cup like at the Moscow Olympics. The tournament would hold. It's not up to FIFA to interfere with political disputes.
"it's not the eating of dogs that is savagery It's the fact that many are kept in deliberately cramped conditions as it's believed to improve the
flavour."
Are you speaking for others or yourself. I saw a Daily Mail article on the dog trade and most of the outrage in the amusing comments section was revulsion at the fact dog meat is considered food at all.
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World Cup in England?
Page 6 of 7
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posted on 3/6/15
comment by Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)
posted 3 minutes ago
"I don't see any merit in those who are only against plutocracy and
colonialism as long as it is
Western plutocracy and
colonialism."
I ramble more about Western hypocrisy. Russia are rogues and they know who they are - despite their propaganda. But you get the feeling the West actually believes a lot of the hypocritical bul.lsh.it it spouts with no self-awareness or shame. It baffles me, personally.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Amazing. It's 9.27 and we've already had the most stupid comment of the day. It can't be beaten.
posted on 3/6/15
John Brown
I have to tell you that Russia in fact did spend centuries plundering other countries, it's just they restricted themselves to those they could get to by land.
There were 15 states subjugated by Russia in the USSR, plus the vast tracts of Asia they made part of the Russian state. Russia still exerts huge amounts of influence on those 15 and Ukraine is a good example of how Russia reacts when one of them tries to exert real independence.
posted on 3/6/15
Basically the FA will just threaten to boycott every World Cup until England are given it.
posted on 3/6/15
"If you think what Russia are currently (key word being currently) doing can be compared to something that the UK aren't currently doing means that the UK is just as unsuitable as Russia to host a world cup then you're deluded and just seem to be defending Russia because they're your current cause."
I can't tell if you have serious comprehension issues or you're just being deliberately thick. I'm not making a grading system for who has caused more havoc. I'm stating you have zero problems with what the West are doing and it doesn't figure in your consciousness when talking about the UK's hosting ability. You hypocritically apply it to Russia cos you're clearly prejudiced against Russia. Oh....are we now focussing on "currently"? The length this fella would go to manipulate any argument is damn funny.
I guess it's okay the several hundred thousands have died in Iraq due to a hare-brained invasion and a resulting endless wave of insurgency just because Britain withdrew its troops a few years ago. That makes it alright then, eh? The same British who just last year were debating military intervention in Syria in parliament and almost armed rebels many of who currently fight with ISIS. Amusingly, it was evil Russia who were the biggest peacemakers in the Syrian crisis.
posted on 3/6/15
FIFA will well and truly learn their lesson when England reach the 2022 World Cup final in Qatar and there's nobody back in Blighty watching on telly.
posted on 3/6/15
When I use the term currently it's because... There will be a world cup in that part of the world! Currently! And the situation there will most probably get worse.
You seem a very immature person if you use terms like me 'hating' Russia and how I apply zero problems with the west.
What is most important and what I'm arguing is for the safety of the match going fans. I've told you about the very real problems with racism and homophobia. You seem to gloss over these in your quest to cry hypocrisy.
If the problems in the balkans escalate and Russia extends it's hegemony over the region it makes a world cup in Russia a very dangerous prospect. We've already seen a passenger jet shot down over that region due to the conflict. Russia are currently violating the Minsk agreement which Ieads me to believe that the situation is going to get worse.
Im talking about current problems. Real problems. But you keep talking about your own dislikes of the West as if the world cup suddenly being given to the UK would be as potentially unsafe as a Russian world cup would be. Not the case at all
posted on 3/6/15
"You as a black person
should see just how bad it is in Russia for black people. Would you feel safe going there? And if
not why would you want to send other black people there"
A lot of black people have it bad in Poland, Ukraine, China etc. It didn't stop them hosting highly successful tournaments. It wouldn't stop Russia. They've hosted summer and winter olympic events and athletic meets and they were great tournaments, even though the West drove themselves to hysteria predicting doom as they ALWAYS do before the tourneys. Most Russians have probably never spoken to a black person before. It doesn't mean I'll sit behind my keyboard sermonizing about it.
posted on 3/6/15
comment by Robb Lannister - #stingrayForSepp (U20351)
posted 1 minute ago
When I use the term currently it's because... There will be a world cup in that part of the world! Currently! And the situation there will most probably get worse.
You seem a very immature person if you use terms like me 'hating' Russia and how I apply zero problems with the west.
What is most important and what I'm arguing is for the safety of the match going fans. I've told you about the very real problems with racism and homophobia. You seem to gloss over these in your quest to cry hypocrisy.
If the problems in the balkans escalate and Russia extends it's hegemony over the region it makes a world cup in Russia a very dangerous prospect. We've already seen a passenger jet shot down over that region due to the conflict. Russia are currently violating the Minsk agreement which Ieads me to believe that the situation is going to get worse.
Im talking about current problems. Real problems. But you keep talking about your own dislikes of the West as if the world cup suddenly being given to the UK would be as potentially unsafe as a Russian world cup would be. Not the case at all
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Those racism problems in Ukraine really came to the fore at Euro 2012, didn't they
Just as the BBC and FA predicted.
posted on 3/6/15
"When I use the term currently it's because... There will be a world
cup in that part of the world! Currently! And the situation there will most probably get worse."
No, those rationalizations entered your argument when your initial moral arguments were deconstructed for its hypocrisy. As for the Ukrainian civil war, I can tell you it has ZERO chance of spilling over to the Russian side. Zero. Even if Russia soldiers poured over the border to invade Ukraine, the war will never be fought on Russian soil. It affects nothing in Russia other than a few parents who don't know if their children in the Russian army have died inside Ukraine.
posted on 3/6/15
I can promise you that if Russia invades Ukraine the world cup will be taken away from that part of the world
posted on 3/6/15
I can't help but laugh when I see on the first pages of the thread someone claim Russia shouldn't host the WC on moral grounds. That coming from someone from a country alongside the US invaded and destroyed Iraq for their oil is hilarious!!
posted on 3/6/15
It's ok. Spain & Portugal are ready.
posted on 3/6/15
Sheriff John Brown
You did downplay the shortcomings of the Russian state, both in your general stance that we have no right to condemn it (as if doing so makes us defenders of UK foreign policy) and the specific (and ludicrous) claim about the thriving gay community in Russia.
However, I will grant that it's fair to object to grandstanding about Russian foreign policy on the part of those who have never lost sleep over recent Western colonial adventures. Not least the neocon hawks in the US, who presided over the ravaging of Latin America in order to prop up often brutal client states.
I'm personally ambivalent about the idea of stripping Russia of the World Cup on the basis of its crimes in relation to Ukraine. On one hand, I despair at Putin's utter cynicism relating to the sacrifice of lives and at the way the situation is being used to consolidate an authoritarian, ultra-conservative regime domestically. On the other, I'm not sure what effect losing the World Cup would have on Russia, other than entrenching the narrative that the West is bent on bringing the country down. There is a risk that the hateful rhetoric Putin is encouraging takes on a momentum in which genuine fanatics come to power (I see Putin ultimately as a power-hungry pragmatist). I'm inclined to say Russia should only be stripped of the tournament if it is proved that they bribed their way to winning it. In that case, it's entirely proper that the decision is reversed and it's more likely that the situation will undermine the Putin narrative, rather than reinforce it.
posted on 3/6/15
Yeah, why not let Spain have the tournament? They've won it once and have only hosted it once......therefore that equals a god given right to host it, regardless of the quality of their bid...right?
posted on 3/6/15
Spain/(Portugal) actually bid for 2018 and only got 2 votes less than Russia in the first round.
England only got 2 votes less than...err...only got 2 votes
posted on 3/6/15
"I can promise you that if Russia invades Ukraine the world cup will be taken away from that part of the world"
No, it won't. Believe it or not, the Western hysteria over Russia's activities doesn't interest most of the world in the slightest. What the fack does a Brazilian, Chinese, Mexican or Nigerian FIFA commitee care about the war in Ukraine?
posted on 3/6/15
comment by Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)
posted 11 seconds ago
"I can promise you that if Russia invades Ukraine the world cup will be taken away from that part of the world"
No, it won't. Believe it or not, the Western hysteria over Russia's activities doesn't interest most of the world in the slightest. What the fack does a Brazilian, Chinese, Mexican or Nigerian FIFA commitee care about the war in Ukraine?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brazil and China probably care a little bit with regards to their BRICS bank
posted on 3/6/15
They were lucky it was Brazil and not Portugal, eh.
posted on 3/6/15
comment by Sheriff John Brown - bring back David Dein (U7482)
posted 4 minutes ago
"I can promise you that if Russia invades Ukraine the world cup will be taken away from that part of the world"
No, it won't. Believe it or not, the Western hysteria over Russia's activities doesn't interest most of the world in the slightest. What the fack does a Brazilian, Chinese, Mexican or Nigerian FIFA commitee care about the war in Ukraine?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry, I'm out. It actually hurts my brain to debate with someone who thinks a Russian invasion of Ukraine won't lead to some pretty massive consequences and ones that will obviously lead to the world cup being taken away from Russia.
posted on 3/6/15
John Brown
The biggest issue with your "reasoning" is that you appear to believe that because the western democracies aren't perfect that makes criticism of other states with far greater faults invalid.
That stand point is nonsense.
posted on 3/6/15
comment by itsonlyagame - #freeSanti (U6426)
posted 7 minutes ago
They were lucky it was Brazil and not Portugal, eh.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That was in reference to the BRICS, by the way.
posted on 3/6/15
"You did downplay the shortcomings of the Russian state, both in your general stance that we have no right to condemn it (as if doing so makes us defenders of UK foreign policy) and the specific (and ludicrous) claim about the thriving gay community in Russia."
You're horribly distorting my comments. I never said anyone had no right to criticize Russia. I was merely out to ensure their views were consistent when applied to Western countries and predictably, their hypocrisy was exposed. It's like an argument I had with a class mate recently who said Chinese people eating dogs was savagery. While I didn't necessarily agree or disagree, I sought to make sure she was vegetarian who didn't eat any meat at all. Else, it was just hypocrisy. I wouldn't have any such problems if she went all Morrisey and said "meat is murder".
posted on 3/6/15
side bar, it's not the eating of dogs that is savagery
It's the fact that many are kept in deliberately cramped conditions as it's believed to improve the flavour. It's not hypocrisy to eat meat but be against both that and say the crated veal trade in Europe. The problem is your arguments are overly simplistic.
posted on 3/6/15
"I'm sorry, I'm out. It actually hurts my brain to debate with someone who thinks a Russian invasion of Ukraine won't lead to some pretty massive consequences"
That would portray you as severely deluded and you don't understand how the world works. The worst that could happen in that case is some countries boycotting the World Cup like at the Moscow Olympics. The tournament would hold. It's not up to FIFA to interfere with political disputes.
posted on 3/6/15
"it's not the eating of dogs that is savagery It's the fact that many are kept in deliberately cramped conditions as it's believed to improve the
flavour."
Are you speaking for others or yourself. I saw a Daily Mail article on the dog trade and most of the outrage in the amusing comments section was revulsion at the fact dog meat is considered food at all.
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