Yes because the majority British public had no clue what they were voting on.

comment by Manfrombelmonty (U1705)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Freedom FC (Welcome to Texas) (U7214)
posted 15 minutes ago
Oh hey, this thread is still going. How is everyone doing today? And what have I missed?
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No one wants to talk trump/clinton anymore. they're all waffling on about straight bananas and uneducated voters
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Fair enough with me. I do like to bring up a topic for our resident Americans. How do you feel about this open border policy vs a closed border policy?

My Canadian friends seem to think that I'm a racist for saying we need to close the borders for anyone coming in from countries with known terrorist threats. I think Trump's statement on doing checks on them before allowing them in is right to a certain extent.

comment by Zlatan The King Ibrahimovic (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
Yes because the majority British public had no clue what they were voting on.
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or as much of a clue as when they vote on who is best to represent the country in a general election - should we scrap that aswell? you're missing the whole point and purpose of democracy

They have more of an idea than with regard to leaving the EU.

I'm not at all. I've acknowledged as such that it's undemocratic. Doesn't change my opinion that such a decision shouldn't have been entrusted to a population that isn't educated enough on the matter.

comment by Zlatan The King Ibrahimovic (U10026)
posted 1 minute ago
They have more of an idea than with regard to leaving the EU.

I'm not at all. I've acknowledged as such that it's undemocratic. Doesn't change my opinion that such a decision shouldn't have been entrusted to a population that isn't educated enough on the matter.
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and does that apply to the original vote to join too?

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree there was a huge amount of misinformation around the brexit vote, I do feel its being used a bit too much in that it has become the main area of focus post the debate rather than the detachment and alienation of millions of people. It was an emotive vote far more than a factual one.

The misinterpretation of the motivations of the working class is what lost the debate I don't feel that has been remotely addressed since either.

For the sake of consistency, yes. But then I wasn't alive to provide any context as to how big the consequences of joining or not were.

comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 9 minutes ago
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree there was a huge amount of misinformation around the brexit vote, I do feel its being used a bit too much in that it has become the main area of focus post the debate rather than the detachment and alienation of millions of people. It was an emotive vote far more than a factual one.

The misinterpretation of the motivations of the working class is what lost the debate I don't feel that has been remotely addressed since either.
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Which sort of brings us full circle to the fact that ordinary working people don't have anything other than the odd bit of token representation across our current corporate media spectrum.

You end up with a very fragmented, disillusioned, confused and angry population who want answers to their grievances. People in that position are vulnerable to the kinds of rhetoric - 'answers' - that the likes of the gutter press and so on perpetuate. It keeps the attentions of ordinary people firmly away from the machinery of power and the major causes of many people's frustrations.

On the other hand, the case for Lexit (which I think ordinary people might have rallied around) was almost non-existent in the discourse.

comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 9 minutes ago
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree there was a huge amount of misinformation around the brexit vote, I do feel its being used a bit too much in that it has become the main area of focus post the debate rather than the detachment and alienation of millions of people. It was an emotive vote far more than a factual one.

The misinterpretation of the motivations of the working class is what lost the debate I don't feel that has been remotely addressed since either.
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Absolutely.

But I'd maybe shift the emphasis a bit and suggest that the deeper issue, and the one to focus on dealing with, is the disillusionment and disenfranchisement of working class, rather than its current motivations.

Unfortunately, the establishment has realised it doesn't need to make concessions to appease the people. All it has to do is shift the focus of the ire of the working class against convenient scapegoats.

"You are right to feel hard done by and angry, that's ok, we understand. We feel the same about the immigrants, the scroungers, the criminals... And together we'll do something about it."

It's classic misdirection.

comment by Freedom FC (Welcome to Texas) (U7214)
posted 34 minutes ago
comment by Manfrombelmonty (U1705)
posted 7 seconds ago
comment by Freedom FC (Welcome to Texas) (U7214)
posted 15 minutes ago
Oh hey, this thread is still going. How is everyone doing today? And what have I missed?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

No one wants to talk trump/clinton anymore. they're all waffling on about straight bananas and uneducated voters
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough with me. I do like to bring up a topic for our resident Americans. How do you feel about this open border policy vs a closed border policy?

My Canadian friends seem to think that I'm a racist for saying we need to close the borders for anyone coming in from countries with known terrorist threats. I think Trump's statement on doing checks on them before allowing them in is right to a certain extent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
While I'm a registered voter here, I'm not really 'american' per se as i was born in ireland.

That being said, of course a country should have standards for immigration. But it shouldn't be as black and white as open vs closed or terrorist vs non terrorist country.

We should absolutely be looking to support folks trying to flee from Syria, not cutting them off because there may b a terrosist among them.

The numbers show that about 2 million of the refugees are children. How can we turn our back on kids who've been forced from their homes due to terrorism. It inhumane.

4.5 million syrian refugees and only 10,000 have come to the US. Yet we have this rhetoric about waves of immigrants flooding in and harboring potential terrorists in their midst.

It sickens me tbh.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36720830

sorry for the link belmonty but that was classic timing, to what level do you put people's lives at risk?

comment by KoemanYouBlues (U21156)
posted 6 minutes ago
sorry for the link belmonty but that was classic timing, to what level do you put people's lives at risk?
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Like i said, its not black and white. It shouldn't be open/closed borders.

Yes, perform the necessary checks on refugees coming into the country, but don't simply shut them off because they are coming from a place where there are some bad arabs.

"Which sort of brings us full circle to the fact that ordinary working people don't have anything other than the odd bit of token representation across our current corporate media spectrum."

It isn't just a media thing though, thats still apportioning the blame rather than understanding of the actual root cause. The media will excaserbate it but the underlying emotion is still real. It's a huge combination of factors.

@Manfrombelmonty

Fair points. It absolutely terrifying to hear what these kids are going through and prayers should go out to them.

The region is so FUBAR'd that anyone we are bringing runs the risk of being linked with a terrorist organization. I think a policy to vet these people before bringing them in seems like a very sensible thing to do. I like the idea of setting up a safe haven for the refugees in different regions whether it be in America or another location in the Middle East until they have been properly vetted. Costly but everyone wins.

I really do understand we need to help out, and we are doing that to a certain extent. $4bn of humanitarian aid are being flown into Syria since 2011. The random attacks in the States over the past couple years is not helping anyone's cause to openly let in the refugees.

*didn't proofread.

comment by Manfrombelmonty (U1705)
posted 15 minutes ago
comment by KoemanYouBlues (U21156)
posted 6 minutes ago
sorry for the link belmonty but that was classic timing, to what level do you put people's lives at risk?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Like i said, its not black and white. It shouldn't be open/closed borders.

Yes, perform the necessary checks on refugees coming into the country, but don't simply shut them off because they are coming from a place where there are some bad arabs.



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comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 31 minutes ago
"Which sort of brings us full circle to the fact that ordinary working people don't have anything other than the odd bit of token representation across our current corporate media spectrum."

It isn't just a media thing though, thats still apportioning the blame rather than understanding of the actual root cause. The media will excaserbate it but the underlying emotion is still real. It's a huge combination of factors.
-------------------

My point melton is that a media system that gate keeps for power can itself never truly address or even shed much light on the mechanisms that cause that underlying emotion or sentiment amongst the population.

I was trying to connect the dots between your post and Koeman who seems to be implying that our media have little impact on the shaping of public opinion.

Build The Wall

comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 3 hours, 43 minutes ago
VC,

And that would be...?

.............

One of these days you will figure out when I am being flippant. Hopefully before one of us dies.

If someone is going to rant about the Brexiters being brainwashed by the right wing media, it is only natural I will go in the opposite direction because of the utter stupidity of that comment.
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I was tempted not to rise to this one VC, but go on, I'll bite

If it is "utter stupidity" to suggest that a proportion of those who voted for Brexit did so on the back of a raft of wholly incorrect beliefs that, for example, £350m a week would go to the NHS instead of the EU post-Brexit, or that we wouldn't have been able to veto Turkish accession if we'd stayed in, and that these beliefs weren't engendered by reading such outright mistruths on the front pages of newspapers, how did people acquire these beliefs?

Did I miss something?

comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 57 minutes ago
comment by meltonblue (U10617)
posted 31 minutes ago
"Which sort of brings us full circle to the fact that ordinary working people don't have anything other than the odd bit of token representation across our current corporate media spectrum."

It isn't just a media thing though, thats still apportioning the blame rather than understanding of the actual root cause. The media will excaserbate it but the underlying emotion is still real. It's a huge combination of factors.
-------------------

My point melton is that a media system that gate keeps for power can itself never truly address or even shed much light on the mechanisms that cause that underlying emotion or sentiment amongst the population.

I was trying to connect the dots between your post and Koeman who seems to be implying that our media have little impact on the shaping of public opinion.
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Ah ok. I wouldn't particularly expect them to, which is why I was moving away from the media side of the argument.

If it is "utter stupidity" to suggest that a proportion of those who voted for Brexit did so on the back of a raft of wholly incorrect beliefs

.................

It is utterly stupid, because you have no idea what the reasons were for each voter. All you can do is stereo type.

Had I have been able to vote, and had voted to leave it would have been for none of the reasons associated to the 'little engalnder' as MUDd stupidly puts it.

comment by Vidicschin (U3584)
posted 11 seconds ago
If it is "utter stupidity" to suggest that a proportion of those who voted for Brexit did so on the back of a raft of wholly incorrect beliefs

.................

It is utterly stupid, because you have no idea what the reasons were for each voter. All you can do is stereo type.

Had I have been able to vote, and had voted to leave it would have been for none of the reasons associated to the 'little engalnder' as MUDd stupidly puts it.
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There is data on this though.

For example, in response to the most comprehensive survey of its kind, one-in-seven Leave voters polled said that *the* most important reason for leaving was that Britain wouldn't have any say on expanding membership of the EU if it stayed in.

This is one myth repeated over and over by the papers which was always demonstrably untrue.

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

so say 1 in 7 did say that, it is only one of many reasons why people voted to leave and most would have still voted the same way.

If the remain politicians hadn't lied every day and tried to threaten, scare and bully people with silly faux examples of what would happen if we did leave then you would have easily got that 2% swing back so you only have yourselves, david cameron and barack obama et al to blame

In response to the same survey, controlling immigration and taking back control of our borders was cited as the most important reason to vote for Brexit by a third of those who did so.

A separate Lord Ashcroft survey polled 20,000 Brits on immigration with 62% saying that the impact of foreigners claiming benefits and using public services was their biggest concern about immigration.

We know that immigrants, per capita, claim a smaller amount in benefits *and* pay more in taxes than native Brits.

So again, this is a reason that contributed to people deciding to vote to leave based on a false premise: if immigrants contribute net an above average amount to the state whilst drawing less, their impact on the benefits burden and public services can only be positive.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/article1308078.ece

comment by KoemanYouBlues (U21156)
posted 6 minutes ago
so say 1 in 7 did say that, it is only one of many reasons why people voted to leave and most would have still voted the same way.

If the remain politicians hadn't lied every day and tried to threaten, scare and bully people with silly faux examples of what would happen if we did leave then you would have easily got that 2% swing back so you only have yourselves, david cameron and barack obama et al to blame
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I don't in any way endorse the Remain campaign or excuse the actions of anyone who lied or bullied through or after the referendum.