It's going the same way here Irish, I mean who cares that Corbyn wears a cardigan or what his front garden looks like, ffs?
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 44 seconds ago
It's going the same way here Irish, I mean who cares that Corbyn wears a cardigan or what his front garden looks like, ffs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you see the Sun's article about Corbyn "dancing" at the Cenotaph?
Was completely fictitious, and they had to pull it. Yet Farage doesn’t wear a poppy for the entirety of remembrance Sunday, and not a word from the press.
HC agreed mate.
Don't even get me started on the jobs for the boys set up we have in my country
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 2 minutes ago
It's going the same way here Irish, I mean who cares that Corbyn wears a cardigan or what his front garden looks like, ffs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's frustrating sin't it?
I think the type of people who are influenced by this type of thing are the same one's who listen to someone talking absolute sh*t but are swayed because they "sound confident"...
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
I am suggesting that concerns on migration as manifested by the Brexit result may be incorrectly targeted. That the data is from a study during that period does not dismiss its current relevance, the economic makeup of the UK has not changed too significantly during the period post that study.
What I am saying is that we should be capable of more nuanced thinking that immigration is good/bad based on simple headline numbers. For example even the fact that over immigrants are net contributors to GDP doesn't consider that in a limited job market, those jobs could be done by others (assuming we had governments that invested properly in skills) meaning that the economic benefit of that job could go to a UK national, both improving that individual and reducing the cost of overall UK nationals.
"And in truth lies firmly at the door of the UK benefit system, rather than EU (or non-EU) economic migrants. "
Totally agree with this.
Hillary's biggest mistake was to use the term "deplorables", it is exactly the kind of put down language that gets the undecided voter to sway to the right. It just sounds very elitist and sneering.
comment by BruceAndPally (U8201)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 2 minutes ago
It's going the same way here Irish, I mean who cares that Corbyn wears a cardigan or what his front garden looks like, ffs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's frustrating sin't it?
I think the type of people who are influenced by this type of thing are the same one's who listen to someone talking absolute sh*t but are swayed because they "sound confident"...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well put.
Personally I don't care what the Taoiseach of Ireland looks like or what her does in his spare time as long as he and his cabinet are working towards the needs and the greater good of the nation.
Is that too much to ask?
I find it more to be against the intellectual classes as much as any right/left debate. Both sides have had surges in popularity, it's not as if Sanders or Corbyn haven't also galvanised large sections of society too.
The problem to me is more that people deal in absolutes and stick steadfastly to their side that entrenchment happens far more than before. Less and less people seem honest enough to say either "I don't know" or "I can see this argument from both sides".
The culture of the Internet and social media has strengthened that even more, and also given everyone a voice, no matter how wrong or dangerous the viewpoint might be (and that is on both sides). As much as it has given access to information, it has given access to poor information more and legitimised opinion that has no right to be.
There are other factors too, I find that quite often nowadays though.
"He went on to explain that if people are not allowed to have a view which goes against the grain that they will be massively frustrated with things and will do the one thing they know which is anonymous - the ballot box and vote against the people who are seen to deny them a voice."
Very true, which is why Polls are so far off in the last two big votes. People are ashamed to have an opinion so lie and say they voted for Clinton/ Stay.
Fact is, most people haven't had a voice in politics for decades, now they're sick of it and the result is the opposition. Unfortunately they come in the shape of Brexit and Trump.
Rover the hill and far away
I think a change to the UK benefit system would be a more long term solution.
As the UK looks to broker new (free) trading relationships post Brexit, immigration will no doubt be front and centre. However it won’t be possible (as recently seen with May’s trip to India) to negotiate free trade agreements without conceding movement of labour.
When you consider India has a workforce of around 500 million people. It’s going to be impossible for the UK gov to get a trade deal with India, and restrict Indian work visas to the tens of thousands.
In fact the UK’s refusal, was one of the main reasons why the EU Commission (after the guts of a decade of negotiations with India) were unable to agree a free trade deal.
It sounds as though Robb that you're referring to the Jonathan Pie video - he does comedy social commentary whilst pretending to be a disillusioned news reporter reconciling his real beliefs with the ones that he espouses 'on the job'.
I took his rant on the 'left' to be in reference more to the establishment 'left liberal' classes - the Guardian et al, who impose the limits on discourse and ensure debate stays within safe establishment parameters.
As far as I can see - and I've said this for years - the biggest hinderance to progress is the corporate media. Once we can abandon ourselves from it, we can move forward. I'd suggest reading Herman & Chomsky's work as essential reading, and then the best work of it's ilk on the British media is by Medialens.
"Fact is, most people haven't had a voice in politics for decades, now they're sick of it and the result is the opposition. Unfortunately they come in the shape of Brexit and Trump."
People have had a voice in politics for over 100 years.
Have the left destroyed debate?
------
Totally can't stand how these bloody cry-baby, pacifist, tree-hugging, bleeding-heart liberal twonts think they can speak so disparagingly about the rest of us. Of course they've killled debate.
Don't get why, if they don't like it, they don't just fack off out of my country and go and live in their North Korean paradise.
Fackers.
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 39 seconds ago
Have the left destroyed debate?
------
Totally can't stand how these bloody cry-baby, pacifist, tree-hugging, bleeding-heart liberal twonts think they can speak so disparagingly about the rest of us. Of course they've killled debate.
Don't get why, if they don't like it, they don't just fack off out of my country and go and live in their North Korean paradise.
Fackers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't imagine why someone would ignore your opinions. Bizarre.
As someone said previously this election was not fought between left and right. Those having a go at the left, especially young people for trying to impose their views on the rest of the world are way off. The left and young people sat out this election. It was the right vs elite centrists who thought it was in the bag, just like Brexit. The left sat this out as a protest against the money which has corrupted the US system. Had clinton won, it would be seen a vindication of the status quo.
Thus why I'm hopeful after Trump's election. This result actually emboldens the real left just like Corbyn's re-election. The Establishment's of both the GOP and Dems created Trump (the dems even bigged him up cos they thought he'd lose easily). THe dems only win in 2020 if they go left.
It seems the fact that you are against something,or maybe dislike it.the left don't allow this stance,it's always construed as Hate .which aims at suppressing opinion.
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
Have the left destroyed debate?
------
Totally can't stand how these bloody cry-baby, pacifist, tree-hugging, bleeding-heart liberal twonts think they can speak so disparagingly about the rest of us. Of course they've killled debate.
Don't get why, if they don't like it, they don't just fack off out of my country and go and live in their North Korean paradise.
Fackers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This appears to be a somewhat dictatorial view.
Thankfully we live in a democratic society in which all viewpoints, (no matter how objectionable) can be heard. And more importantly considered.
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 37 seconds ago
"Fact is, most people haven't had a voice in politics for decades, now they're sick of it and the result is the opposition. Unfortunately they come in the shape of Brexit and Trump."
People have had a voice in politics for over 100 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really?
If you call choice voting for a government who then change everything about their original manifesto, continue to make life more and more difficult for the average person and selling off all the public assets, then okay.
At least American states have votes on laws that are passed, in the UK it's realistically a choice between two very liberal parties.
The reason Tump and Brexit won the votes, is not because we are nations of racists and homophobes. The reason is so many people are at the point in which they have so little to lose, they may as well vote for the people who offer something different.
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 6 minutes ago
It sounds as though Robb that you're referring to the Jonathan Pie video - he does comedy social commentary whilst pretending to be a disillusioned news reporter reconciling his real beliefs with the ones that he espouses 'on the job'.
I took his rant on the 'left' to be in reference more to the establishment 'left liberal' classes - the Guardian et al, who impose the limits on discourse and ensure debate stays within safe establishment parameters.
As far as I can see - and I've said this for years - the biggest hinderance to progress is the corporate media. Once we can abandon ourselves from it, we can move forward. I'd suggest reading Herman & Chomsky's work as essential reading, and then the best work of it's ilk on the British media is by Medialens.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This times 1000
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 37 seconds ago
"Fact is, most people haven't had a voice in politics for decades, now they're sick of it and the result is the opposition. Unfortunately they come in the shape of Brexit and Trump."
People have had a voice in politics for over 100 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really?
If you call choice voting for a government who then change everything about their original manifesto, continue to make life more and more difficult for the average person and selling off all the public assets, then okay.
At least American states have votes on laws that are passed, in the UK it's realistically a choice between two very liberal parties.
The reason Tump and Brexit won the votes, is not because we are nations of racists and homophobes. The reason is so many people are at the point in which they have so little to lose, they may as well vote for the people who offer something different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would add to that excellent last point you made, that the Left, that most seem to think the people are rallying against and is "killing debate", doesn't actually have an option, hence the millions of young people and Left leaning voters who sat out both the EU ref and US GE. That is slowly change in the UK with Corbyn's labour and will change in the US when the Dems get taken over by the left. I almost didn't vote for the first time int he EUref as I thought either choice wouldn't make that much difference, but held my nose and voted in.
Absolute nonsense that the left kills debate. The people who kill debate are the centrist elite who do well out of the way things are and don't want to upset the apple cart. The actual Left want change, which starts with, you guessed it, debate.
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 17 minutes ago
Rover the hill and far away
I think a change to the UK benefit system would be a more long term solution.
As the UK looks to broker new (free) trading relationships post Brexit, immigration will no doubt be front and centre. However it won’t be possible (as recently seen with May’s trip to India) to negotiate free trade agreements without conceding movement of labour.
When you consider India has a workforce of around 500 million people. It’s going to be impossible for the UK gov to get a trade deal with India, and restrict Indian work visas to the tens of thousands.
In fact the UK’s refusal, was one of the main reasons why the EU Commission (after the guts of a decade of negotiations with India) were unable to agree a free trade deal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't disagree with any of that especially given that, as a nation, we produce less and less of what the world want. Germany's industrial production is of a level we can only dream of now.
Immigration is a very complex subject. Not as simple as saying you're racist, you're not. Theres far more meat to that bone.
However....people who don't approve of gay marriage are just loonies. What gay people want to do with their lives should be up to them. It's not doing anyone any harm. Gay people have the same rights (imo) as anyone else.
Religion and greed are the two biggest evils in the world. Greed more so in my opinion.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
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Have the left destroyed debate?
Page 2 of 37
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posted on 14/11/16
It's going the same way here Irish, I mean who cares that Corbyn wears a cardigan or what his front garden looks like, ffs?
posted on 14/11/16
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 44 seconds ago
It's going the same way here Irish, I mean who cares that Corbyn wears a cardigan or what his front garden looks like, ffs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did you see the Sun's article about Corbyn "dancing" at the Cenotaph?
Was completely fictitious, and they had to pull it. Yet Farage doesn’t wear a poppy for the entirety of remembrance Sunday, and not a word from the press.
posted on 14/11/16
HC agreed mate.
Don't even get me started on the jobs for the boys set up we have in my country
posted on 14/11/16
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 2 minutes ago
It's going the same way here Irish, I mean who cares that Corbyn wears a cardigan or what his front garden looks like, ffs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's frustrating sin't it?
I think the type of people who are influenced by this type of thing are the same one's who listen to someone talking absolute sh*t but are swayed because they "sound confident"...
posted on 14/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 14/11/16
I am suggesting that concerns on migration as manifested by the Brexit result may be incorrectly targeted. That the data is from a study during that period does not dismiss its current relevance, the economic makeup of the UK has not changed too significantly during the period post that study.
What I am saying is that we should be capable of more nuanced thinking that immigration is good/bad based on simple headline numbers. For example even the fact that over immigrants are net contributors to GDP doesn't consider that in a limited job market, those jobs could be done by others (assuming we had governments that invested properly in skills) meaning that the economic benefit of that job could go to a UK national, both improving that individual and reducing the cost of overall UK nationals.
"And in truth lies firmly at the door of the UK benefit system, rather than EU (or non-EU) economic migrants. "
Totally agree with this.
posted on 14/11/16
Hillary's biggest mistake was to use the term "deplorables", it is exactly the kind of put down language that gets the undecided voter to sway to the right. It just sounds very elitist and sneering.
posted on 14/11/16
comment by BruceAndPally (U8201)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 2 minutes ago
It's going the same way here Irish, I mean who cares that Corbyn wears a cardigan or what his front garden looks like, ffs?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's frustrating sin't it?
I think the type of people who are influenced by this type of thing are the same one's who listen to someone talking absolute sh*t but are swayed because they "sound confident"...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well put.
Personally I don't care what the Taoiseach of Ireland looks like or what her does in his spare time as long as he and his cabinet are working towards the needs and the greater good of the nation.
Is that too much to ask?
posted on 14/11/16
I find it more to be against the intellectual classes as much as any right/left debate. Both sides have had surges in popularity, it's not as if Sanders or Corbyn haven't also galvanised large sections of society too.
The problem to me is more that people deal in absolutes and stick steadfastly to their side that entrenchment happens far more than before. Less and less people seem honest enough to say either "I don't know" or "I can see this argument from both sides".
The culture of the Internet and social media has strengthened that even more, and also given everyone a voice, no matter how wrong or dangerous the viewpoint might be (and that is on both sides). As much as it has given access to information, it has given access to poor information more and legitimised opinion that has no right to be.
There are other factors too, I find that quite often nowadays though.
posted on 14/11/16
"He went on to explain that if people are not allowed to have a view which goes against the grain that they will be massively frustrated with things and will do the one thing they know which is anonymous - the ballot box and vote against the people who are seen to deny them a voice."
Very true, which is why Polls are so far off in the last two big votes. People are ashamed to have an opinion so lie and say they voted for Clinton/ Stay.
Fact is, most people haven't had a voice in politics for decades, now they're sick of it and the result is the opposition. Unfortunately they come in the shape of Brexit and Trump.
posted on 14/11/16
Rover the hill and far away
I think a change to the UK benefit system would be a more long term solution.
As the UK looks to broker new (free) trading relationships post Brexit, immigration will no doubt be front and centre. However it won’t be possible (as recently seen with May’s trip to India) to negotiate free trade agreements without conceding movement of labour.
When you consider India has a workforce of around 500 million people. It’s going to be impossible for the UK gov to get a trade deal with India, and restrict Indian work visas to the tens of thousands.
In fact the UK’s refusal, was one of the main reasons why the EU Commission (after the guts of a decade of negotiations with India) were unable to agree a free trade deal.
posted on 14/11/16
It sounds as though Robb that you're referring to the Jonathan Pie video - he does comedy social commentary whilst pretending to be a disillusioned news reporter reconciling his real beliefs with the ones that he espouses 'on the job'.
I took his rant on the 'left' to be in reference more to the establishment 'left liberal' classes - the Guardian et al, who impose the limits on discourse and ensure debate stays within safe establishment parameters.
As far as I can see - and I've said this for years - the biggest hinderance to progress is the corporate media. Once we can abandon ourselves from it, we can move forward. I'd suggest reading Herman & Chomsky's work as essential reading, and then the best work of it's ilk on the British media is by Medialens.
posted on 14/11/16
"Fact is, most people haven't had a voice in politics for decades, now they're sick of it and the result is the opposition. Unfortunately they come in the shape of Brexit and Trump."
People have had a voice in politics for over 100 years.
posted on 14/11/16
Have the left destroyed debate?
------
Totally can't stand how these bloody cry-baby, pacifist, tree-hugging, bleeding-heart liberal twonts think they can speak so disparagingly about the rest of us. Of course they've killled debate.
Don't get why, if they don't like it, they don't just fack off out of my country and go and live in their North Korean paradise.
Fackers.
posted on 14/11/16
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 39 seconds ago
Have the left destroyed debate?
------
Totally can't stand how these bloody cry-baby, pacifist, tree-hugging, bleeding-heart liberal twonts think they can speak so disparagingly about the rest of us. Of course they've killled debate.
Don't get why, if they don't like it, they don't just fack off out of my country and go and live in their North Korean paradise.
Fackers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't imagine why someone would ignore your opinions. Bizarre.
posted on 14/11/16
As someone said previously this election was not fought between left and right. Those having a go at the left, especially young people for trying to impose their views on the rest of the world are way off. The left and young people sat out this election. It was the right vs elite centrists who thought it was in the bag, just like Brexit. The left sat this out as a protest against the money which has corrupted the US system. Had clinton won, it would be seen a vindication of the status quo.
Thus why I'm hopeful after Trump's election. This result actually emboldens the real left just like Corbyn's re-election. The Establishment's of both the GOP and Dems created Trump (the dems even bigged him up cos they thought he'd lose easily). THe dems only win in 2020 if they go left.
posted on 14/11/16
It seems the fact that you are against something,or maybe dislike it.the left don't allow this stance,it's always construed as Hate .which aims at suppressing opinion.
posted on 14/11/16
comment by Mourinho delenda est (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
Have the left destroyed debate?
------
Totally can't stand how these bloody cry-baby, pacifist, tree-hugging, bleeding-heart liberal twonts think they can speak so disparagingly about the rest of us. Of course they've killled debate.
Don't get why, if they don't like it, they don't just fack off out of my country and go and live in their North Korean paradise.
Fackers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This appears to be a somewhat dictatorial view.
Thankfully we live in a democratic society in which all viewpoints, (no matter how objectionable) can be heard. And more importantly considered.
posted on 14/11/16
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 37 seconds ago
"Fact is, most people haven't had a voice in politics for decades, now they're sick of it and the result is the opposition. Unfortunately they come in the shape of Brexit and Trump."
People have had a voice in politics for over 100 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really?
If you call choice voting for a government who then change everything about their original manifesto, continue to make life more and more difficult for the average person and selling off all the public assets, then okay.
At least American states have votes on laws that are passed, in the UK it's realistically a choice between two very liberal parties.
The reason Tump and Brexit won the votes, is not because we are nations of racists and homophobes. The reason is so many people are at the point in which they have so little to lose, they may as well vote for the people who offer something different.
posted on 14/11/16
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 6 minutes ago
It sounds as though Robb that you're referring to the Jonathan Pie video - he does comedy social commentary whilst pretending to be a disillusioned news reporter reconciling his real beliefs with the ones that he espouses 'on the job'.
I took his rant on the 'left' to be in reference more to the establishment 'left liberal' classes - the Guardian et al, who impose the limits on discourse and ensure debate stays within safe establishment parameters.
As far as I can see - and I've said this for years - the biggest hinderance to progress is the corporate media. Once we can abandon ourselves from it, we can move forward. I'd suggest reading Herman & Chomsky's work as essential reading, and then the best work of it's ilk on the British media is by Medialens.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This times 1000
posted on 14/11/16
comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 3 minutes ago
comment by HenrysCat (U3608)
posted 37 seconds ago
"Fact is, most people haven't had a voice in politics for decades, now they're sick of it and the result is the opposition. Unfortunately they come in the shape of Brexit and Trump."
People have had a voice in politics for over 100 years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really?
If you call choice voting for a government who then change everything about their original manifesto, continue to make life more and more difficult for the average person and selling off all the public assets, then okay.
At least American states have votes on laws that are passed, in the UK it's realistically a choice between two very liberal parties.
The reason Tump and Brexit won the votes, is not because we are nations of racists and homophobes. The reason is so many people are at the point in which they have so little to lose, they may as well vote for the people who offer something different.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I would add to that excellent last point you made, that the Left, that most seem to think the people are rallying against and is "killing debate", doesn't actually have an option, hence the millions of young people and Left leaning voters who sat out both the EU ref and US GE. That is slowly change in the UK with Corbyn's labour and will change in the US when the Dems get taken over by the left. I almost didn't vote for the first time int he EUref as I thought either choice wouldn't make that much difference, but held my nose and voted in.
Absolute nonsense that the left kills debate. The people who kill debate are the centrist elite who do well out of the way things are and don't want to upset the apple cart. The actual Left want change, which starts with, you guessed it, debate.
posted on 14/11/16
comment by What would Stuart Pearce do? (U3126)
posted 17 minutes ago
Rover the hill and far away
I think a change to the UK benefit system would be a more long term solution.
As the UK looks to broker new (free) trading relationships post Brexit, immigration will no doubt be front and centre. However it won’t be possible (as recently seen with May’s trip to India) to negotiate free trade agreements without conceding movement of labour.
When you consider India has a workforce of around 500 million people. It’s going to be impossible for the UK gov to get a trade deal with India, and restrict Indian work visas to the tens of thousands.
In fact the UK’s refusal, was one of the main reasons why the EU Commission (after the guts of a decade of negotiations with India) were unable to agree a free trade deal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't disagree with any of that especially given that, as a nation, we produce less and less of what the world want. Germany's industrial production is of a level we can only dream of now.
posted on 14/11/16
Immigration is a very complex subject. Not as simple as saying you're racist, you're not. Theres far more meat to that bone.
However....people who don't approve of gay marriage are just loonies. What gay people want to do with their lives should be up to them. It's not doing anyone any harm. Gay people have the same rights (imo) as anyone else.
Religion and greed are the two biggest evils in the world. Greed more so in my opinion.
posted on 14/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 14/11/16
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Page 2 of 37
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